The 3/3 body for the first few turns is super relevant in the bear-infested cube environment. Not to mention the Firebolts and Arc Trails and stuff that can't kill the 3/3 form of Warden. I agree with you there 100%. Like I said before, all the shortcomings are being exaggerated and all the advantages are being ignored. Can't wait to beat fools down with this creature.
To be fair Figure needs some combination of WWWWWWW and RRRRRR to be his 8/8 form. This needs a combination of 3BBB or 3WWW which is about a gajillion times easier. Also, you can activate that every turn if you want. Student of Warfare is really good but again WW to reach the second level is substantially more tricky than 1W or 1B. I don't have an issue with it dying to removal in response to six mana, it's probable that I've got good advantage out of the creature already and haven't got anything much else to do with the mana.
100000% agree
The ultimate is a big reason why I have hopes for this guy. 3XXX vs XXXXXX
Plus he's in a color that generates mana.. Making his ultimate way easier to cast.
I think this guy ultimates WAY more than figure/student despite it's higher total cost. And his ultimate is more powerful (gaining life + repeated uses)
I also think fleecmane lion is an underrated card in general and is basically on the same power level as any card in selesnya (a tiny bit below Finks/Pridemage and almost equal to Voice).
This guy is probably the best card in the set for cubes and there are debates on his usefulness?? I'd think the other less powerful cards would attract more controversy but opinions seem to be more one-sided there.
There are exactly eight spells in my 450 Cube that can kill Warden and not Figure in their middle forms. One of those is Inferno Titan, but it can do it so I counted it. If I really wanted to look, and I don't, I know there are at least seven cards that can kill Figure as a 2/2 but not Warden as a 3/3.
If we want to talk about what creatures can effectively block Warden but not Figure then I'm happy to have that conversation, but the idea that Warden is vulnerable to so many more spells than Warden feels a little silly after a bit of analysis.
If you want to compare the middle form, sure destiny is better. But we should compare the first form, which will be the form that is ALWAYS active as well. Anything with 2 power in cube can kill figure but not warden. Also, burn spell that can deal 2 damage to one target like arc trail will also kill figure buy not warden as well. I think those number should be extremely high.
Also, people should remember that this is a one drop. A one drop that put enough consistent pressure and draw removal is fine in cube.
This card makes me angry at wizards of the coast. Why is it a frikkin mythic??? They are going back on their word that mythics will not just be tournament playables. The legendary dragons are not mythics? It seems almost as if WOTC is hating on cube owners this set.
This card makes me angry at wizards of the coast. Why is it a frikkin mythic??? They are going back on their word that mythics will not just be tournament playables. The legendary dragons are not mythics? It seems almost as if WOTC is hating on cube owners this set.
Couldn't agree with you more. There are at least 3 mythics in this set that don't feel mythic, aren't legendary, and are going to be 3-ofs or 4-ofs in Standard, Modern, and maybe even Legacy decks. Meanwhile two cycles of legends are just rares. It's totally stupid and, honestly, infuriating. It goes totally against what WOTC said they were doing with mythics.
Back on topic: Why are we even debating this card? It's fantastic. Run it. That said, the debate has been very interesting.
This card makes me angry at wizards of the coast. Why is it a frikkin mythic??? They are going back on their word that mythics will not just be tournament playables. The legendary dragons are not mythics? It seems almost as if WOTC is hating on cube owners this set.
Couldn't agree with you more. There are at least 3 mythics in this set that don't feel mythic, aren't legendary, and are going to be 3-ofs or 4-ofs in Standard, Modern, and maybe even Legacy decks. Meanwhile two cycles of legends are just rares. It's totally stupid and, honestly, infuriating. It goes totally against what WOTC said they were doing with mythics.
Back on topic: Why are we even debating this card? It's fantastic. Run it. That said, the debate has been very interesting.
Cheers,
rant
Look at it this way, those rare legendaries you didn't care about are all over costed, and might have gotten a discount at mythic, this guy could have easily been worse with a rare stauts. Sometimes the mythicness of a creature is just how powerful it is, this guy is very mythic to me. I personally dislike my mythics being all overpriced edh jank. And preorder is only $9 for this guy, most likely meaning it'll drop to the price of a pack in short order.
As for the debate, I think this card is a 360-540 staple depending on the level of fixing in your cube, but it is still unclear to me how good this is. Cards like student of warfare are my favorite all time for cube and I never thought I would see anything like them again. But more likely it will be merely good.
It wants green mana on turn one, which requires a heavy green commitment, which usually isn't the most aggressive of colors. If you aren't playing it on turn 1, then the 1st level isn't particularly good.
The 2nd level is just a bad investment. The third is is nice, but requires you to have invested 13 mana at that point, which isn't particularly exciting. Until it ultimates, it basically dies to any removal spell in the cube.
You have to look at what kind of decks want this. A green based aggressive deck with white or black as its second color. Not sure I've ever played a deck like that.
A G/W/B rockish midrange deck. I suppose this could be good there, but I've rarely seen that kind of deck played in cube.
Don't get me wrong, I think this is a good and powerful card. I think it will be impactful in standard. I dont' think it fits well into anything I see people having success with in cube.
The way the leveling abilities are written is an obvious throwback to Figure of Destiny, but this card here actually makes me think of Student of Warfare. Both are 1-drops that can attack as 3/3s on turn 2. Which is pretty good, even if it means not playing an actual 2-drop. (Against decks with mass removal, this isn't even a bad thing.) Sure, Warden needs two colors for this and doesn't have first strike, but 1(W/B) is a lot easier to use on turn two than WW.
This guy looks pretty good for Selesnya aggro (or Golgari aggro, but that archetype has never been good in my cube) or different variants of aggressive midrange decks.
A big thing I think some people are underestimating about the card is its instant speed activation vs sorcery speed.
Gives it a big edge on student in that department
You have to look at what kind of decks want this. A green based aggressive deck with white or black as its second color. Not sure I've ever played a deck like that.
You don't have to be dedicated green with secondary white or black to have this card be playable. Green can easily be the secondary color and you can have the sources to cast this card on T1 and activate it on T2. The colored mana demand from this card is really light, and even with a terrible 9/8 all-basic mana base in a W/g or B/g deck, you can easily cast this creature on T1 and activate it on T2. Green can definitely be the secondary color and the deck will still get full value from this card. Even with green aggro scaled all the way back, we see decks like that all the time.
Quote from spairy »
A G/W/B rockish midrange deck. I suppose this could be good there, but I've rarely seen that kind of deck played in cube.
You rarely see rock decks in the rock colors? Interesting.
..........
FWIW, this card has been awesome in its very first cube appearance. If you can cast it and activate the first ability, the card will be good for you. It's a no-brainer, IMO.
I think this card is fantastic, but I only think it's a no brainer if 1.) you're ok running it over Siege Rhino or 2.) you're ok running it in either the Selesnya, Golgari, or mono green section.
A G/W/B rockish midrange deck. I suppose this could be good there, but I've rarely seen that kind of deck played in cube.
You rarely see rock decks in the rock colors? Interesting.
I think what he means is that those colors are not played together commonly in his cube.
Honestly, I think that's all the more reason to test this guy and maybe throw in some other cards that support that deck coming together a little more frequently.
I don't really understand why folks are comparing this guy to Figure and Student (and especially Fleecemane Lion). The three cards are similar, but none of them fight for the same slot so I don't see the value in comparing them too closely. Now, with that said, I think this guy is really good, but I'm not convinced that he'll make into my list over the card that we should be comparing him to: Siege Rhino. That's the discussion that should be happening here.
The reason why people compare the two is because it's not just the slot that counts. It's how they fare against each other on the battlefield. How would they stack up if they were on opposing sides and we just banged them together?
On turn 2, the Warden wins the exchange.
From turn 3 to turn 5, it gets interesting. FoD's boost now makes it immune to most damage-based removal in cube. FoD wins the battle on turn 3, but from turn 4 onward, Warden's lifelink and trample makes it super easy to race both ways - diminishing the impact of your opponent's attacks and increasing your ability to inflict damage through blockers.
On turn 6, the situation changes again. FoD becomes gigantic and impossible to beat in combat. But, the cost to do so is mana-intensive. It's unlikely to hit its activation cost on curve. By contrast, the ease of activation on the Warden means it is more likely to get the earlier activation, and therefore the earlier hit in - and a hit from an 8/8 trampling life-linker is a game-changing swing. Hits much harder than the 8/8 flying first striking FoD.
The lower land count of aggro decks also affects the likelihood of reaching ultimate mana on FoD, versus Warden who lives in green, the king of midrange and ramp, which also increases the likelihood of hitting his activation costs faster.
You have to look at what kind of decks want this. A green based aggressive deck with white or black as its second color. Not sure I've ever played a deck like that.
Green aggro always wants to be splashing either white or black. Sometimes people go G/r, but it is never as strong as G/w or G/b.
Out of the attacking green decks in my cube, G/W does the best, followed by G/R and G/U then G/B. Golgari is probably the worst two color combo since the black aggressive cards are so much better, and black pairs with every color better than green.
I've never played a cube that supported Black/Green aggro.
Red Green is typically good, U/G tempo aggro can be good, as well as white green, but those decks tend to be much heavier white because of the heavy white casting costs of many of the best aggressive creatures.
If your cube supports B/G aggro heavily then I suppose this would slot right in, as there aren't that many aggressive cards in those pairings.
The thing I liked about student and figure is that they aren't jsut aggro cards. They go very well as part of curving out in midrange, allowing your to go faster or slower to suit the match (the whole point of playing a midrange deck). Hell I have played student in plenty of u/w control decks because it can dominate the board agaist aggro opponents and be a good mana sink. Warden is not as good as those because it is multicolor and not quite as aggresive. But is in green and splahable which means....
This guy is going to show up in all kinds of decks in my cube, upheaval (and other ramp U/G), super ramp decks. G?W fair.dec Midrange Roc Decks, 5 Color.
Late game in green sometimes I am top decking with 10 mana if my fatties get dealt with and I can't think of a one drop I would rather draw.
RG and WG aggro decks happen far more often and post better results than BG aggro decks in my cube. UG tempo is also better than the latter. However, BGx midrange is pretty popular and Warden is good in those decks as well. So, it is basically a Selesnya/Golgari hybrid card for me.
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100000% agree
The ultimate is a big reason why I have hopes for this guy. 3XXX vs XXXXXX
Plus he's in a color that generates mana.. Making his ultimate way easier to cast.
I think this guy ultimates WAY more than figure/student despite it's higher total cost. And his ultimate is more powerful (gaining life + repeated uses)
I also think fleecmane lion is an underrated card in general and is basically on the same power level as any card in selesnya (a tiny bit below Finks/Pridemage and almost equal to Voice).
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If you want to compare the middle form, sure destiny is better. But we should compare the first form, which will be the form that is ALWAYS active as well. Anything with 2 power in cube can kill figure but not warden. Also, burn spell that can deal 2 damage to one target like arc trail will also kill figure buy not warden as well. I think those number should be extremely high.
Also, people should remember that this is a one drop. A one drop that put enough consistent pressure and draw removal is fine in cube.
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Couldn't agree with you more. There are at least 3 mythics in this set that don't feel mythic, aren't legendary, and are going to be 3-ofs or 4-ofs in Standard, Modern, and maybe even Legacy decks. Meanwhile two cycles of legends are just rares. It's totally stupid and, honestly, infuriating. It goes totally against what WOTC said they were doing with mythics.
Back on topic: Why are we even debating this card? It's fantastic. Run it. That said, the debate has been very interesting.
Cheers,
rant
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Look at it this way, those rare legendaries you didn't care about are all over costed, and might have gotten a discount at mythic, this guy could have easily been worse with a rare stauts. Sometimes the mythicness of a creature is just how powerful it is, this guy is very mythic to me. I personally dislike my mythics being all overpriced edh jank. And preorder is only $9 for this guy, most likely meaning it'll drop to the price of a pack in short order.
As for the debate, I think this card is a 360-540 staple depending on the level of fixing in your cube, but it is still unclear to me how good this is. Cards like student of warfare are my favorite all time for cube and I never thought I would see anything like them again. But more likely it will be merely good.
It wants green mana on turn one, which requires a heavy green commitment, which usually isn't the most aggressive of colors. If you aren't playing it on turn 1, then the 1st level isn't particularly good.
The 2nd level is just a bad investment. The third is is nice, but requires you to have invested 13 mana at that point, which isn't particularly exciting. Until it ultimates, it basically dies to any removal spell in the cube.
You have to look at what kind of decks want this. A green based aggressive deck with white or black as its second color. Not sure I've ever played a deck like that.
A G/W/B rockish midrange deck. I suppose this could be good there, but I've rarely seen that kind of deck played in cube.
Don't get me wrong, I think this is a good and powerful card. I think it will be impactful in standard. I dont' think it fits well into anything I see people having success with in cube.
This guy looks pretty good for Selesnya aggro (or Golgari aggro, but that archetype has never been good in my cube) or different variants of aggressive midrange decks.
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Gives it a big edge on student in that department
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You don't have to be dedicated green with secondary white or black to have this card be playable. Green can easily be the secondary color and you can have the sources to cast this card on T1 and activate it on T2. The colored mana demand from this card is really light, and even with a terrible 9/8 all-basic mana base in a W/g or B/g deck, you can easily cast this creature on T1 and activate it on T2. Green can definitely be the secondary color and the deck will still get full value from this card. Even with green aggro scaled all the way back, we see decks like that all the time.
You rarely see rock decks in the rock colors? Interesting.
..........
FWIW, this card has been awesome in its very first cube appearance. If you can cast it and activate the first ability, the card will be good for you. It's a no-brainer, IMO.
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I think what he means is that those colors are not played together commonly in his cube.
Honestly, I think that's all the more reason to test this guy and maybe throw in some other cards that support that deck coming together a little more frequently.
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The reason why people compare the two is because it's not just the slot that counts. It's how they fare against each other on the battlefield. How would they stack up if they were on opposing sides and we just banged them together?
On turn 2, the Warden wins the exchange.
From turn 3 to turn 5, it gets interesting. FoD's boost now makes it immune to most damage-based removal in cube. FoD wins the battle on turn 3, but from turn 4 onward, Warden's lifelink and trample makes it super easy to race both ways - diminishing the impact of your opponent's attacks and increasing your ability to inflict damage through blockers.
On turn 6, the situation changes again. FoD becomes gigantic and impossible to beat in combat. But, the cost to do so is mana-intensive. It's unlikely to hit its activation cost on curve. By contrast, the ease of activation on the Warden means it is more likely to get the earlier activation, and therefore the earlier hit in - and a hit from an 8/8 trampling life-linker is a game-changing swing. Hits much harder than the 8/8 flying first striking FoD.
The lower land count of aggro decks also affects the likelihood of reaching ultimate mana on FoD, versus Warden who lives in green, the king of midrange and ramp, which also increases the likelihood of hitting his activation costs faster.
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Green aggro always wants to be splashing either white or black. Sometimes people go G/r, but it is never as strong as G/w or G/b.
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That's my experience anyway.
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This is my experience as well.
Red Green is typically good, U/G tempo aggro can be good, as well as white green, but those decks tend to be much heavier white because of the heavy white casting costs of many of the best aggressive creatures.
If your cube supports B/G aggro heavily then I suppose this would slot right in, as there aren't that many aggressive cards in those pairings.
This guy is going to show up in all kinds of decks in my cube, upheaval (and other ramp U/G), super ramp decks. G?W fair.dec Midrange Roc Decks, 5 Color.
Late game in green sometimes I am top decking with 10 mana if my fatties get dealt with and I can't think of a one drop I would rather draw.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG