MTG Salvation

I like Vorapede more than him, but I'm the guy who like Vorapede more than silverheart.

I actually like this guy more now than when I first saw him. He gives you 6 power over 2 bodies if he survived to your end step, continues to provide both bodies and card advantage if he sticks around (putting a creature face down as a morph is essentially card draw), and gives you wrath protection. I still don't think he's good enough to crack the incredibly tight green 5-drop slot, but I definitely want to test him now.

He is so good against wraths with creature-based ramp because he lets you get value off of all your dorks too.

I might give this a try over a random Hydra and see how it does. At first blush, I think it's a decent card but ultimately not strong enough. Worth testing, IMO, but we'll see if it's worth keeping.

Just close both eyes and include this guy. It's gonna be so good.

This guy's pretty interesting, and as someone who values novel interactions over raw power, I'm inclined to give him a shot. That said, I think everyone is missing the glaring downside of manifest: it nerfs ETB triggers. From a cuber's perspective this is a pretty bitter pill to swallow; I imagine after flipping a squirrel-less hermit once or twice, people are going to decide it's not worth it. But then again, I'm not running morph, and it would be nice to have one (pseudo-) morph effect in there, so I'll probably see how it plays out.

Quote from noratora »

This guy's pretty interesting, and as someone who values novel interactions over raw power, I'm inclined to give him a shot. That said, I think everyone is missing the glaring downside of manifest: it nerfs ETB triggers. From a cuber's perspective this is a pretty bitter pill to swallow; I imagine after flipping a squirrel-less hermit once or twice, people are going to decide it's not worth it. But then again, I'm not running morph, and it would be nice to have one (pseudo-) morph effect in there, so I'll probably see how it plays out.

Uh, you just don't flip the hermit and instead be happy with your free 2/2. The manifest is literally all upside, as it essentially reads "At the beginning of your end step, put the top card of your library on the bottom* and put a 2/2 token into play. Occasionally, you can spend some mana to upgrade that 2/2 into something sweet." Will you sometimes put a card you wish you drew face down into play with this guy? Sure, but just as often you'll draw a spell you really want X turns earlier because he's in play, or get to flip something sweet that essentially becomes a free draw + psuedo-haste, etc.

*Obviously this ignores decking, but I can't imagine this guy sticking around for 10+ turns, getting you a 2/2 every turn, and somehow losing to decking very often.

What happens when you Flickerwisp a Manifest Token and it's a non-permanent card?

Quote from Wildfire393 »

Also, if you have any bounce (Crystal Shard especially) or flicker (especially re-usable like Venser, Shaper Savant), you can garner even further value.

I think you meant PW venser (Venser, the Sojourner), but yeah, flicker is great with manifest. Imagine manifesting then flickering an avenger of zendikar, or sundering titan, or a million other things.

This card will find its way into more cubes than it initially does, it's really powerful if that isn't obvious. It's 6 power for 5 mana on average. Great on many different parts of the game.

I'm going to find testing room at 475.

Quote from NathanZimmerer »

This card will find its way into more cubes than it initially does, it's really powerful if that isn't obvious. It's 6 power for 5 mana on average. Great on many different parts of the game.

I'm going to find testing room at 475.

I think its good, and interesting. I am going to test it for sure.

Quote from Wildfire393 »

Quote from wtwlf123 »

What happens when you Flickerwisp a Manifest Token and it's a non-permanent card?

Quote from majikian »

I believe it just stays exiled because non-permanents can't enter the battlefield under normal circumstances.

This is correct.

Quote from asmallcat »

I think you meant PW venser (Venser, the Sojourner), but yeah, flicker is great with manifest. Imagine manifesting then flickering an avenger of zendikar, or sundering titan, or a million other things.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Confirmed by Matt Tabak:
https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/550381348397920257

This guy seems very testable in medium or large cubes.

Played against this last night and it was scary. Opponent Phyrexian Metamorphed it and started to amass an army really fast, flipping Primeval Titan from one of the manifested creatures and closed out the game quite easily (well, Ugin showed up on later turn as well..) I was quite unsure of including this beforehand, but now I think it had a decent chance to make it in to my cube.

Reading that positive feedback makes me reconsider testing it. I didn't test it in my 540 after going through my green section & seeing how many ETB triggers would be missed from Manifest. I still think it's too many for this card to make the cut but maybe I'll give it a test anyway. Green 5 drops are so stacked...

I think 540 may be the sweet spot for extensive testing on this card.

I agree that 540 is the ideal testing spot. I've got a nice suite of 5-drops I've no intention of cutting anytime soon (Thragtusk, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Deranged Hermit, Acidic Slime, and a few planeswalkers and powerful sorceries), but I've got a slot just below them that's been in flux, and this will be tested there.

I'm running 540 but I like all my other 5-drops compared to this guy.

The only 5-drop I'm running at 550 that I think I'd be willing to cut for something like this is Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. So far we've only seen Freyalise in action a few times, but she's been pretty solid. I'm leaning more towards keeping the 'walker and passing on this guy.

Why do people view missed etb triggers in a negative light? That's the same mentality new players have when they're bomb gets milled away randomly and they think its the most broken thing ever. Unless you have a toolbox deck, I can't see it having any negative effect on your decks potential. Compared to the times those manifested cards got you closer to the eventual answer that won you the game, or got rid of a useless land, or gave you a sizeable creature for free.. the chance that it milled a card with an etb ability you needed seems pretty negligible.

If your whole deck is just a pile of cards, than sure. Manifesting doesn't matter in that case, and it's just like mill. But when you're using tutors and stuff to accomplish very specific things, having those targets in your deck can be important. It won't always be, but it could be a bummer to lose your Reclamation Sage to Manifest when you need it as a GSZ target and things like that. But that's a minor annoyance at most, and shouldn't really negatively impact your opinion of Whisperwood Elemental. In fact, the ability to purge specific cards with it can be a boon with cards like Top/Rack/Library/Jace and other top-of-library manipulation spells. It also makes Shelldock Isle easier to activate, fwiw.

And if you're using tutors, then I consider your deck more of a toolbox deck, and probably wouldn't include him in the 40. But aside from that, I think people are incorrectly associating manifest with loss of perceived value. That Reclamation Sage you happened to manifest could of easily been at the bottom of the deck and never shown up anyways.

Quote from Altaurus321 »

That Reclamation Sage you happened to manifest could of easily been at the bottom of the deck and never shown up anyways.

Sure, but again, if your deck contains any tutoring effects at all, the Manifest activation can pull tools from your toolbox. It's not a crushing blow to the card's evaluation, but it's not completely irrelevant either.

I've lost cards to mill that turned out to be important cards that I wanted to snag with tutor effects. But I agree with you that most of the time it's no big deal ...and in more cases than not, beneficial to you given how Manifest works.

I've been testing this guy in my cube (540 unpowered)... he's been a real beating. After several matches, the players who resolved him have lost a total of one game.

One thing about manifest that I've noticed as well is that it gives a game a morph-like mystery that is present in regular limited environments that include the mechanic, but very hard to achieve in Cube (since there are few morphs in Cube, and everyone tends to know who they are). I'm hopeful that we'll get more really powerful manifest cards in the next set, after trying this card.