It was in the top 5 of my set preview article when it was spoiled as a 450+ include, and I've been playing it at 450 ever since. Other than the brief time that I benched it to test Titania, before I quickly undid that change, lol.
Apologies, for some reason I didn't think you thought too highly of Kalonian Hydra. Perhaps due to the discussion on the Kalonian Hydra thread. Selective memory I guess.
A control deck that dies to a ramped out Kalonian on t3 is either built super wrong or is having a super bad draw.
Almost all removal kills it, something a control deck should have more of than any other deck.
It's a card that wins the game on its own but normally after opponents resources are exhausted or against removal light decks...
Control and tempo are definitely its weakest matchups.
Sometimes all you have are 4+CC sweepers in your draw, yes? I could see having stuff like Black Sun's Zenith, or a Wrath but needing a 4th land/the 2nd white or black, having Walls that have to be good enough, etc. Even if you don't die to it, taking 8+ damage from a single creature is pretty damaging. Also, S happens.
Whisperwood does play well vs. control sweepers though!
The ramped out Hydra is better against combo and tempo. Against control, I like it as a post-Wrath threat, because it presents a fast clock they need to draw their second answer for quickly, or they'll lose.
Yes, even in a more aggressive-minded deck, the first wave often requires a sweeper, and having a great follow-up like Hydra is where you want to be in your green decks.
Besides which the bad against control argument which is essentially "dies to removal" is not a strike against a card. Yes you can bounce it, yes you can kill it, yes you can wrath it, but the very fact that you have to answer it speaks to its power.
It is not about the dying to removal thing, it is about bringing 2 for 1 at the table, a thing that is crucial in green deck, not just against control. In fact, if we take a look at the MTGO Holiday Cube list, we are able to see that all creatures that have 3cc or more in the green slot can «check» that factor at some point. Kalonian Hydra, for his part, won't be able to. He is one of the most, or even the most, powerful of all 5cc and less, but dunnot have all the little things that could jave make him great cube material.
Usually, you'd be right. You don't want to sink 5+ mana into a creature that doesn't guarantee value. There's only 2 creatures in the cube that can't. One is Baneslayer Angel. The other, is Kalonian Hydra. It's a 2-turn clock entirely on it's own. It doesn't need to be a 2-for-1 when you bring that sort of clock to the table. They have 1-2 draws to answer it at most, or they just die. No other 5-drop in the cube boasts that kind of threatening presence. Hell, almost no other creatures in the cube do this, no matter what their cost is. You don't think presenting a 2-turn clock is relevant. I disagree. Green is filled to the gills with value creatures, and none of them help midrange in their control or combo matchups. It's okay to expend a slot on a threat that is unprecedented in strength, especially when it can shore up weaknesses that the decks have in bad matchups.
Oh, and referencing the MTGO cube as a basis for determining what should/shouldn't be included in a cube doesn't hold much water, IMO. Just because the MTGO cube decided not to include any 3+cc green creatures unless they were value guys doesn't meant that's the only road or the right call.
Oh, and referencing the MTGO cube as a basis for determining what should/shouldn't be included in a cube doesn't hold much water, IMO. Just because the MTGO cube decided not to include any 3+cc green creatures unless they were value guys doesn't meant that's the only road or the right call.
I know. I'm not saying that what the Holiday Cube's designers do is God's words but it is still a good indication of what WotC thinks about cube evolution. They are well positioned to know what it takes to make cube play the most fun and powerful possible.
And about Kalonian Hydra, you're right, there's nothing in MTG that is comparable to him in term of raw power and some cubes certainly benefit from his presence. Even if I'm not a fan of it, I can understand and see his potential. You're totally right about the unique asset he brings.
Oh, and referencing the MTGO cube as a basis for determining what should/shouldn't be included in a cube doesn't hold much water, IMO. Just because the MTGO cube decided not to include any 3+cc green creatures unless they were value guys doesn't meant that's the only road or the right call.
I know. I'm not saying that what the Holiday Cube's designers do is God's words but it is still a good indication of what WotC thinks about cube evolution. They are well positioned to know what it takes to make cube play the most fun and powerful possible.
It is, but is that something I even want? I'm yet to draft an online cube that gives me the same feeling of fun, balance and power I get from *most* of the paper cubes I've drafted. It's pretty far off, actually.
And about Kalonian Hydra, you're right, there's nothing in MTG that is comparable to him in term of raw power and some cubes certainly benefit from his presence. Even if I'm not a fan of it, I can understand and see his potential. You're totally right about the unique asset he brings.
And I don't think Whisperwood Elemental is a bad card at all. I just think there are better cards in that slot for small- to medium-sized cubes.
The MTGO cube is really bad and I don't think you should use it as the basis of your judgement for card evaluation.
The Holiday Cube is not even close to be REALLY bad. Yes it could welcome some upgrades, like most of cubes list, but it is certainly a nice play environment. I personnally had a lot of fun drafting it this year (a lot of time :P) and I found fascinating how there designers managed to make aggro/combo/control/midrange all very valuable stretegy at the same time. Some key cards are missing, that's a fact, but that's only because they want to give a shot to some pet cards to see what people think about it. Also, the cube being Storm oriented, they had to keep it to 540 and under to make it right.
With that said, MTGO powered version of the cube is certainly not bad at all. If we dunnot consider the Storm package, your own cube fits about 75% to 80% of it lol.
Apologies, for some reason I didn't think you thought too highly of Kalonian Hydra. Perhaps due to the discussion on the Kalonian Hydra thread. Selective memory I guess.
Almost all removal kills it, something a control deck should have more of than any other deck.
It's a card that wins the game on its own but normally after opponents resources are exhausted or against removal light decks...
Control and tempo are definitely its weakest matchups.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Whisperwood does play well vs. control sweepers though!
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
It is not about the dying to removal thing, it is about bringing 2 for 1 at the table, a thing that is crucial in green deck, not just against control. In fact, if we take a look at the MTGO Holiday Cube list, we are able to see that all creatures that have 3cc or more in the green slot can «check» that factor at some point. Kalonian Hydra, for his part, won't be able to. He is one of the most, or even the most, powerful of all 5cc and less, but dunnot have all the little things that could jave make him great cube material.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Oh, and referencing the MTGO cube as a basis for determining what should/shouldn't be included in a cube doesn't hold much water, IMO. Just because the MTGO cube decided not to include any 3+cc green creatures unless they were value guys doesn't meant that's the only road or the right call.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I know. I'm not saying that what the Holiday Cube's designers do is God's words but it is still a good indication of what WotC thinks about cube evolution. They are well positioned to know what it takes to make cube play the most fun and powerful possible.
And about Kalonian Hydra, you're right, there's nothing in MTG that is comparable to him in term of raw power and some cubes certainly benefit from his presence. Even if I'm not a fan of it, I can understand and see his potential. You're totally right about the unique asset he brings.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
It is, but is that something I even want? I'm yet to draft an online cube that gives me the same feeling of fun, balance and power I get from *most* of the paper cubes I've drafted. It's pretty far off, actually.
And I don't think Whisperwood Elemental is a bad card at all. I just think there are better cards in that slot for small- to medium-sized cubes.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
The Holiday Cube is not even close to be REALLY bad. Yes it could welcome some upgrades, like most of cubes list, but it is certainly a nice play environment. I personnally had a lot of fun drafting it this year (a lot of time :P) and I found fascinating how there designers managed to make aggro/combo/control/midrange all very valuable stretegy at the same time. Some key cards are missing, that's a fact, but that's only because they want to give a shot to some pet cards to see what people think about it. Also, the cube being Storm oriented, they had to keep it to 540 and under to make it right.
With that said, MTGO powered version of the cube is certainly not bad at all. If we dunnot consider the Storm package, your own cube fits about 75% to 80% of it lol.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Amen to that, 25% makes the difference between a mediocre cube and a great one.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
(Spoiler: Good but there are more impactful 5 drops so this guy gets edged out).