I'll probably cut Oblivion Stone for Ugin. In terms of targets it doesn't hit, it would suck if I was staring down an Eldrazi or a Wurmcoil Engine, but Ugin provides so much more power that I'm willing to make that tradeoff.
I honestly don't compare Ugin and Karn at all. To me, the comparison should be with All is Dust, and Ugin is +1 mana for +DI upside. Going in my 570 for sure, but I'll have to find a cut for it since All is Dust was always just on the outside looking in for me.
-AA
They are both super expensive colorless planes walkers that end the game if not dealt with. They optimize in different decks, but are playable and serve the same roll in the same decks.
Smaller cubes cannot justify running too many expensive spells. Karn is sick but I definitely wouldn't want to include a functional reprint of him , nor do I think I want two 7+ mana walkers , no matter how powerful they are.
I like having the 7+ mana Planeswalkers in my cube as interesting finishers for control and ramp decks. I'm already running Karn, BG Garruk, and Bolas. I'll welcome Ugin to that list as well.
Oblivion Stone is a good idea for a cut. It's mana intensive and has a similar effect.
I mean, I get WHY they are compared (colorless expensive PW) but I just think that's a more simplified comparison than what is justified: for medium-sized and larger Cubes anyway. Since I haven't run a small Cube in a large number of years, I'm not familiar enough with how much room one has for cards like this (especially powered vs. un).
That said, I still think always defaulting to apples to apples comparisons might leave some neat cards out of Cubes for which an orange can be removed instead.
Large cube? Check. Green ramp supported? Check. Artifact ramp supported? Check.
>> I am definitely running Ugin.
While he is best in a deck with strong mana acceleration, he is also a good finisher/wrath for most control decks. 8 mana is reachable for decks that are designed to go for the long game. And Ugin can go into far more control decks than his nemesis Bolas with his restrictive cost.
Speaking of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker I was just about to cut him. He is awesome, but so few decks want/can cast him. Seeing how Ugin's ultimate mirror's Bolas', it would be super flavorful to run both dragon planeswalkers though.
As for cuts, I am neither cutting Karn Liberated nor All is Dust for Ugin. All those cards go into the same or at least similar decks and create some redundancy. Oblivion Stone on the other hand looks like a good cut: Ugin and AiD are just better. Especially since they don't kill your own manafacts.
Why is it "each permanent ... that's one or more colors" and not just "each colored permanent ..."?
I was wondering the very same thing. I suppose that Wizards has decided to change the wording for clarity reasons and Ugin just happens to be the first card with the new wording.
Looking at your list, hardb0dy, I like Karn more than any of the draft altering cards you're running from Conspiracy. Specifically I think he should be in over Aether Searcher. Of course, I can't really identify with running those types of Conspiracy cards in my main list. I have a stack of them with the cube that we throw in from time to time, but they aren't in my main list.
In hardb0dy's defense, we were thinking about cutting Karn when we were at 360 too. It's not as good in small powered lists as it is in larger cubes supporting bigger threat decks and haymaker archetypes.
In hardb0dy's defense, we were thinking about cutting Karn when we were at 360 too. It's not as good in small powered lists as it is in larger cubes supporting bigger threat decks and haymaker archetypes.
It would be on my list of potential cuts as well if I were to go down to 360 cards. The smaller the Cubes the fiercer the competition. Adding a card (Karn Liberated) that costs 7 and can't be cheated into play with reanimation spells or Tinker is hard to justify at 360, because there are enough colorless threats that can be cheated.
As I stated in my earlier post, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon has the same issues only it costs 8 instead of 7 which makes it even less attractive. So much like the inclusion of Karn is at least debatable at 360, the inclusion of Ugin is debatable at 450.
I like this guy in tandem with Karn. I've never been an All is Dust guy. No idea what to cut within smaller cubes (40-50 colorless). This guy is a top colorless option. His ceiling is ridiculous
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Adding a card (Karn Liberated) that costs 7 and can't be cheated into play with reanimation spells or Tinker is hard to justify at 360, because there are enough colorless threats that can be cheated.
I know Goodking cut Karn for Aether Searcher when it came out precisely for that reason. While Karn is one of my favorite all-time cards I can certainly see the reasoning behind that swap.
As for Ugin, I think it will be a great Cube card. The obvious cut (for me) would be All Is Dust but I can see some merit on cutting something like Oblivion Stone. Just don't cut Karn for it - this is one of those cases where I think it pays off to cut an orange for an apple (using Antknee's terminology).
Well it all depends on which archetypes you support. We run Channel and Eureka, so this guy fits right in and made us include Show and Tell and Emrakul. This in turn makes fringier cards like Personal Tutor higher picks. Our cube is 470 now, but if you support these archetypes likes this I could see this being good at 360 as well. Of course you can always cast it, put that would make it quite narrow as a card.
For the reasons others have stated, I prefer my big colourless targest to be reanimation and Tinker (and SnT, I guess) targets too, so I don't run Karn (I would only have space for one of the two anyway, in all likelihood).
This guy is a probably little worse, as each additional mana tends to be more difficult to come by, making him a less realistic option in fair decks (although 8 is doable).
That being said, I think this is probably the best ramp target there is in cube. Comes down and wipes the board if necessary (and sticks around). If you're ahead on board, wins the game in 3 turns.
Karn was an easy cut at 360. With only hardcasting as a play option for a SEVEN mana card, and not cheatable like its competition via being an artifact creature, was a death sentence. I think I would probably look at it again at 450 seeing as we added Eureka now. So I would say Ugin would be an additional huge colourless option for 500+, but I'm not sure I wouldn't like another silly big artifact creature more at that size.
Tested Ugin out a few times since his being spoiled and he has not disappointed. When Ugin resolved into a board position where his owner was way behind, he single handedly would either bring the board to parity or leave a battlefield with only him (as a relevant permanent) in play. In situations of parity, he usually came down, bolted something and created a board position that forced the opponent into bad plays to deal with him. When ahead, he either sealed it with bolts to the face or ran away with the game with an ultimate 3 turns later. He has never not had a HUGE impact on a board he was played into.
If I can pick one up, he's absolutely getting a slot in my EDH cube. I suppose I have an easier time with adding new cards than most people do, as my cube is constantly expanding for the moment. I'm also always excited to be adding colorless cards because the higher the ratio of colorless to colored spells in the cube the more feasible to draft monocolored decks.
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Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Tested Ugin out a few times since his being spoiled and he has not disappointed. When Ugin resolved into a board position where his owner was way behind, he single handedly would either bring the board to parity or leave a battlefield with only him (as a relevant permanent) in play. In situations of parity, he usually came down, bolted something and created a board position that forced the opponent into bad plays to deal with him. When ahead, he either sealed it with bolts to the face or ran away with the game with an ultimate 3 turns later. He has never not had a HUGE impact on a board he was played into.
TLDR: auto include
I don't think anyone is going to argue against his board impact. What would be more interesting to know is how many games ended with Ugin in your hand not getting cast because the game ended too early. There's a bit of bias when you only include the games where he resolved instead of the games where he also just got stranded in hand. I get that resolving him is more memorable then just "didn't cast, game ended" but I would prefer to see both events tracked because 8 is a lot of mana
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Skullclamp, Jitte, Swords of X and Y.
Cube-playable equipment in general seem like they could be problematic, especially ones that boost toughness.
It's not an "end of the world" thing, but it's a problem that Karn doesn't have.
They are both super expensive colorless planes walkers that end the game if not dealt with. They optimize in different decks, but are playable and serve the same roll in the same decks.
Smaller cubes cannot justify running too many expensive spells. Karn is sick but I definitely wouldn't want to include a functional reprint of him , nor do I think I want two 7+ mana walkers , no matter how powerful they are.
This is why "which is better?" is relevant.
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Oblivion Stone is a good idea for a cut. It's mana intensive and has a similar effect.
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That said, I still think always defaulting to apples to apples comparisons might leave some neat cards out of Cubes for which an orange can be removed instead.
-AA
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>> I am definitely running Ugin.
While he is best in a deck with strong mana acceleration, he is also a good finisher/wrath for most control decks. 8 mana is reachable for decks that are designed to go for the long game. And Ugin can go into far more control decks than his nemesis Bolas with his restrictive cost.
Speaking of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker I was just about to cut him. He is awesome, but so few decks want/can cast him. Seeing how Ugin's ultimate mirror's Bolas', it would be super flavorful to run both dragon planeswalkers though.
As for cuts, I am neither cutting Karn Liberated nor All is Dust for Ugin. All those cards go into the same or at least similar decks and create some redundancy. Oblivion Stone on the other hand looks like a good cut: Ugin and AiD are just better. Especially since they don't kill your own manafacts.
I was wondering the very same thing. I suppose that Wizards has decided to change the wording for clarity reasons and Ugin just happens to be the first card with the new wording.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Mind providing some context? I have a hard time imagining the removal of Karn.
-AA
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As I stated in my earlier post, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon has the same issues only it costs 8 instead of 7 which makes it even less attractive. So much like the inclusion of Karn is at least debatable at 360, the inclusion of Ugin is debatable at 450.
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As for Ugin, I think it will be a great Cube card. The obvious cut (for me) would be All Is Dust but I can see some merit on cutting something like Oblivion Stone. Just don't cut Karn for it - this is one of those cases where I think it pays off to cut an orange for an apple (using Antknee's terminology).
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Just a reminder, Show and Tell does not put Ugin into play.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This guy is a probably little worse, as each additional mana tends to be more difficult to come by, making him a less realistic option in fair decks (although 8 is doable).
That being said, I think this is probably the best ramp target there is in cube. Comes down and wipes the board if necessary (and sticks around). If you're ahead on board, wins the game in 3 turns.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
TLDR: auto include
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I don't think anyone is going to argue against his board impact. What would be more interesting to know is how many games ended with Ugin in your hand not getting cast because the game ended too early. There's a bit of bias when you only include the games where he resolved instead of the games where he also just got stranded in hand. I get that resolving him is more memorable then just "didn't cast, game ended" but I would prefer to see both events tracked because 8 is a lot of mana
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