This card is very akin to Krosan Verge, but significantly more open in the number of decks that can make use of it (though with a lower ceiling for GW decks due to the inability to fetch duals). This is a land that is "slow" card advantage and can do fun things with landfall. It may or may not be something to warrant consideration in cube, but it's certainly not completely out of the range of possibilities. Thoughts?
Not hitting your splash color is a significant problem, since big multicolor decks are the ones most likely to want this effect. That said, it does provide actual ramp for any color... The only other card I can think off off the top of my head that does that is Nykthos.
Also, the deck thinning aspect is kind of significant here. Instead of getting one card out of a 60 card deck, you get two out of a 40 card deck where games tend to go longer. There's a good chance that it will net you a card's worth over the long game in the right deck.
Don't forget that Crucible and Loam are a thing too!
I think it's good. Krosan Verge is a strong land, and this one (while a bit worse for WG) can be used by any color. It would be hard for me to exclude this from any midrange or control deck.
I feel it's probably pretty damn good in blue control. Signets are good in control decks because you get to ramp to your expensive cards without being green. This i even better because you even get to hold up mana for reactive spells, especially counterspells; krosan verge fails here because GW isn't exactly the most controlling color combination. I'll test it.
I think it's good. Krosan Verge is a strong land, and this one (while a bit worse for WG) can be used by any color. It would be hard for me to exclude this from any midrange or control deck.
Why is this a strong land? This seems horrible to me.
It produces colorless, so it doesn't mana fix until the turn after you crack it, and at that point you've already invested a ETBT land drop, the mana it could produce, and two additional mana from elsewhere sources. Just to get a forest and a plains that ETBT.
So you went up one card on the battlefield but invested 4 mana to do so. That's a really bad Cultivate imo.
So you went up one card on the battlefield but invested 4 mana to do so. That's a really bad Cultivate imo.
While I don't necessarily disagree that this card isn't the greatest, spreading out the cost of cultivate over a couple turns does make a difference. Playing this land first, casting a few spells, and then cracking it a couple/few turns later can work, especially if you don't have a turn 1 play to make as is.
You can get two Shocklands that share a type. Or two Urza lands!
It's slow-ish but that doesn't make it bad. Decks that need the colors will reward the patience required to set it up. It's not an aggro card, that's for sure. I don't think it's the most cube-able card on the planet, but it's not "bad". I wouldn't stretch to include it at smaller sizes just because of that "new card smell". Bigger cubes can support it.
They don't have to be basics. You can get two Shocklands that share a type. Or two Urza lands!
It's slow-ish but that doesn't make it bad. Decks that need the colors will reward the patience required to set it up. It's not an aggro card, that's for sure. I don't think it's the most cube-able card on the planet, but it's not "bad". I wouldn't stretch to include it at smaller sizes just because of that "new card smell". Bigger cubes can support it.
You might want to read the card again. It says "two basic land cards".
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You might want to read the card again. It says "two basic land cards".
Aw, that's weak. Ok so you can't get Locus lands or Urza lands, nor can you pick up 3 colors via duals....mm I don't think my opinion of the card changes too much. Although...it's kinda stinky in 4+color decks that want to grab duals. Still not a great card for small cubes, still a decent card for bigger ones.
I'm not saying this card is amazing but comparing it to Cultivate seems off. This doesn't take a spell slot.
Doesn't it, though? It's sort of like how Wasteland is secretly a 0-cost sorcery that destroys a land at the cost of your land drop. Except this can't tap for mana the turn it comes down.
Now I agree, it's a little more interesting in a control deck, where you'll generally be leaving mana up; the combination of deck thinning and ramp both work towards a big finisher, and the fact that you don't have to be in green makes it more versatile than most of the competition. Still, there aren't many scenarios I can think of when I'd rather run this than just about any other card imaginable.
This card seems incredibly slow and incredibly mana intensive for a fairly mediocre payoff. First it hits play tapped. Not only that, but I then have to use up a turn paying the cost to sacrifice it. On top of all of that, the lands that I get have to be basics, they have to be the same type of basic and they also hit play tapped.
Why is this a strong land? This seems horrible to me.
Have you ever played Krosan Verge? Even when it wasn't getting dual lands, the fact that you get mana fixing, card advantage, double deck thinning and a shuffle effect from a land slot is great. In any deck that isn't focussed on its tempo, I'd be willing to play this land. It's card advantage on a land. A colorless land. Similarly to filter lands, I also get double-colored fixing from this card. A control deck can play this on T1, use it on T2 for mana, and then crack it on T3 for an activation that sets up a 5-lands on T4, with double-color fixing and card advantage from one of them. It's slow, but slow decks are willing to sacrifice tempo for that kind of card advantage, especially from a land slot.
You get 5 mana from 4 resources, similar to the advantage you get from a bounceland. It has the drawback of having the land you bounce ETBT in addition, but it has all the advantages that fetchlands have plus true CA against bounce, the ability to go into any deck, and double-fixing of a single color.
I'm not saying this land is broken or anything, but it's definitely a solid option for slower midrange decks and control decks.
Even in my peasant list, Krosan Verge was too slow. I'd be more accepting of this version if anything was different. Let me be able to play and use this thing in the same turn (effectively make it it Cultivate variant). Keep the ETBT clause, but let me get two different basics. Let the basics come in untapped. Reduce the sac cost by one.
A control deck can play this on T1, use it on T2 for mana, and then crack it on T3 for an activation that sets up a 5-lands on T4, with double-color fixing and card advantage from one of them.
It feels clunky to spend two of my first three turns mucking around with this land just for +1 mana on turn four. I know the card doesn't make you play bad and you don't have to spend mana to sac it until it makes sense to do so, but it just seems like a lot of time and effort for not that much pay off.
I like the comparison to the bounce lands. It does feel similar from a tempo standpoint. I can see slotting this into a slower midrange or control deck, but I just wonder how often the tempo hit, especially in the early game, will do more harm than good.
I'm a little confused at the negativity that this card is receiving. No one is saying that this is busted but I think it's pretty easy to see how this card generates value over the course of a game.
Comments about how you are "mucking" around in the early turns with this land seem somewhat skewed towards decks that actually have USES for that mana. The decks we are talking about this card being in are decks that traditionally don't get that much value out of the early turn lands. These type of decks, however, would greatly benefit from a ramp/fixing card that costs VERY little in terms of resources over the course of a game.
I'm 100% never going to want this card in a deck that is remotely aggressive but I see myself wanting this in 2 color control decks, big ramp decks, and midrange decks, to name a few.
I'm not sure where this card ends up but my 550 cube is definitely going to be wanting this.
While I don't necessarily disagree that this card isn't the greatest, spreading out the cost of cultivate over a couple turns does make a difference.
The thing is though, you're not actually spreading out the cost. You still have to use this land + 2 other mana to activate the ability. So you're spending however much mana you'd normally be spending on cultivate, but you're getting a colorless land that ETBT along with the deal (losing another additional mana).
The cost isn't being spread out at all, you're just adding to it.
I'm not saying this card is amazing but comparing it to Cultivate seems off. This doesn't take a spell slot.
I don't think the fact this is a land makes it more appealing, unlike most nonbasics. Because it only taps for colorless means your manabase is going to actually get worse until you can activate it rather than playing a basic land.
As someone mentioned before, this does have an emphasis on supporting monocolored. I don't think Cultivate is the best comparison for this card, it's obviously Krosan Verge... but we were already talking about Krosan Verge when I made the comparison to Cultivate, lol. I think that's the best comparison I can think of, certainly better than Thawing Glaciers which I already compared it to earlier in the thread, lol.
A land that ramps and generates card advantage looks like an auto include to me.
I'm definitely adding this at 450, and I would also include it at 360 without a doubt.
No, obviously not, haha. If I can't understand why a card is good, I don't know why I'd be interested in playing it.
What cube size do you think Krosan Verge is playable in? I can't find room in my 720, and I run 7 guild lands. I think that's saying something.
Even when it wasn't getting dual lands, the fact that you get mana fixing, card advantage, double deck thinning and a shuffle effect from a land slot is great. In any deck that isn't focussed on its tempo, I'd be willing to play this land. It's card advantage on a land. A colorless land. Similarly to filter lands, I also get double-colored fixing from this card.
All this is great, but it takes a loonnngg time to get this payoff. I mean, Explosive Vegetation does all this too and that card isn't making lots of waves. The issue is the mana cost (4 total) and the fact that I'm adding an ETBT colorless land to my mana pool, significantly weakening my mana base until I have time to crack it.
I'm not saying this land is broken or anything, but it's definitely a solid option for slower midrange decks and control decks.
Yeah, I would only ever play something like this in a slow controlling deck, and even then I'd probably just elect to play another basic honestly. I value both entering the battlefield untapped and the initial help with creating colored mana more than this thing (or Krosan Verge).
Ya, even control decks don't like ETBT lands too much. It's taking a land slot, yes, and instead of basic you're now running a colorless ETBT land, that needs effectively a 3 mana investment before it can fix and ramp you - the turn after. I don't see the appeal either. Playing it on turn 1 seems acceptable if you have nothing to do on turn 1, and don't need colored mana on turn 2, and have nothing better to do on turn 3. Playing it later is probably worse.
Thawing Glaciers is a damn fine comparison and I agree. We cut Thaw a while back for being too slow and clunky even in slower control decks. This card seems to have a lot of those same problems. This one at least taps for mana, so maybe if you're running Thaw this one can go into that slot? I think I'd still want Thaw over this, though. That might happen at around the 630 range.
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Edit - I'm an idiot, it only ramps you by one. Pass.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Also, the deck thinning aspect is kind of significant here. Instead of getting one card out of a 60 card deck, you get two out of a 40 card deck where games tend to go longer. There's a good chance that it will net you a card's worth over the long game in the right deck.
Don't forget that Crucible and Loam are a thing too!
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Lol, that is the definition of going super deep =P
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Pass until people start saying I should run this. I'm not gonna test it.
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Why is this a strong land? This seems horrible to me.
It produces colorless, so it doesn't mana fix until the turn after you crack it, and at that point you've already invested a ETBT land drop, the mana it could produce, and two additional mana from elsewhere sources. Just to get a forest and a plains that ETBT.
So you went up one card on the battlefield but invested 4 mana to do so. That's a really bad Cultivate imo.
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While I don't necessarily disagree that this card isn't the greatest, spreading out the cost of cultivate over a couple turns does make a difference. Playing this land first, casting a few spells, and then cracking it a couple/few turns later can work, especially if you don't have a turn 1 play to make as is.
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It's slow-ish but that doesn't make it bad. Decks that need the colors will reward the patience required to set it up. It's not an aggro card, that's for sure. I don't think it's the most cube-able card on the planet, but it's not "bad". I wouldn't stretch to include it at smaller sizes just because of that "new card smell". Bigger cubes can support it.
You might want to read the card again. It says "two basic land cards".
Aw, that's weak. Ok so you can't get Locus lands or Urza lands, nor can you pick up 3 colors via duals....mm I don't think my opinion of the card changes too much. Although...it's kinda stinky in 4+color decks that want to grab duals. Still not a great card for small cubes, still a decent card for bigger ones.
Doesn't it, though? It's sort of like how Wasteland is secretly a 0-cost sorcery that destroys a land at the cost of your land drop. Except this can't tap for mana the turn it comes down.
Now I agree, it's a little more interesting in a control deck, where you'll generally be leaving mana up; the combination of deck thinning and ramp both work towards a big finisher, and the fact that you don't have to be in green makes it more versatile than most of the competition. Still, there aren't many scenarios I can think of when I'd rather run this than just about any other card imaginable.
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Have you ever played Krosan Verge? Even when it wasn't getting dual lands, the fact that you get mana fixing, card advantage, double deck thinning and a shuffle effect from a land slot is great. In any deck that isn't focussed on its tempo, I'd be willing to play this land. It's card advantage on a land. A colorless land. Similarly to filter lands, I also get double-colored fixing from this card. A control deck can play this on T1, use it on T2 for mana, and then crack it on T3 for an activation that sets up a 5-lands on T4, with double-color fixing and card advantage from one of them. It's slow, but slow decks are willing to sacrifice tempo for that kind of card advantage, especially from a land slot.
You get 5 mana from 4 resources, similar to the advantage you get from a bounceland. It has the drawback of having the land you bounce ETBT in addition, but it has all the advantages that fetchlands have plus true CA against bounce, the ability to go into any deck, and double-fixing of a single color.
I'm not saying this land is broken or anything, but it's definitely a solid option for slower midrange decks and control decks.
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Even in my peasant list, Krosan Verge was too slow. I'd be more accepting of this version if anything was different. Let me be able to play and use this thing in the same turn (effectively make it it Cultivate variant). Keep the ETBT clause, but let me get two different basics. Let the basics come in untapped. Reduce the sac cost by one.
It feels clunky to spend two of my first three turns mucking around with this land just for +1 mana on turn four. I know the card doesn't make you play bad and you don't have to spend mana to sac it until it makes sense to do so, but it just seems like a lot of time and effort for not that much pay off.
I like the comparison to the bounce lands. It does feel similar from a tempo standpoint. I can see slotting this into a slower midrange or control deck, but I just wonder how often the tempo hit, especially in the early game, will do more harm than good.
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I do hope we get more cards like this in the future, this one is just good but not quite good enough to see many cubers include it.
Comments about how you are "mucking" around in the early turns with this land seem somewhat skewed towards decks that actually have USES for that mana. The decks we are talking about this card being in are decks that traditionally don't get that much value out of the early turn lands. These type of decks, however, would greatly benefit from a ramp/fixing card that costs VERY little in terms of resources over the course of a game.
I'm 100% never going to want this card in a deck that is remotely aggressive but I see myself wanting this in 2 color control decks, big ramp decks, and midrange decks, to name a few.
I'm not sure where this card ends up but my 550 cube is definitely going to be wanting this.
The thing is though, you're not actually spreading out the cost. You still have to use this land + 2 other mana to activate the ability. So you're spending however much mana you'd normally be spending on cultivate, but you're getting a colorless land that ETBT along with the deal (losing another additional mana).
The cost isn't being spread out at all, you're just adding to it.
I don't think the fact this is a land makes it more appealing, unlike most nonbasics. Because it only taps for colorless means your manabase is going to actually get worse until you can activate it rather than playing a basic land.
As someone mentioned before, this does have an emphasis on supporting monocolored. I don't think Cultivate is the best comparison for this card, it's obviously Krosan Verge... but we were already talking about Krosan Verge when I made the comparison to Cultivate, lol. I think that's the best comparison I can think of, certainly better than Thawing Glaciers which I already compared it to earlier in the thread, lol.
360? Really?
No, obviously not, haha. If I can't understand why a card is good, I don't know why I'd be interested in playing it.
What cube size do you think Krosan Verge is playable in? I can't find room in my 720, and I run 7 guild lands. I think that's saying something.
All this is great, but it takes a loonnngg time to get this payoff. I mean, Explosive Vegetation does all this too and that card isn't making lots of waves. The issue is the mana cost (4 total) and the fact that I'm adding an ETBT colorless land to my mana pool, significantly weakening my mana base until I have time to crack it.
Yeah, I would only ever play something like this in a slow controlling deck, and even then I'd probably just elect to play another basic honestly. I value both entering the battlefield untapped and the initial help with creating colored mana more than this thing (or Krosan Verge).
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