Curious if anyone cubes this card. It seems like it could be powerful in almost any kind of deck: it digs for lands, threats, and/or answers, kind of like a repeatable, scalable Brainstorm. Is it too weak without shuffle effects, though? How does it rank against something like Top (which I see fell from favor in the latest power poll) or Memory Jar?
I still run Scroll Rack. It is okay. I mainly run it (and top) as trap cards that other people rush to pick, and then I crush them while they are screwing around with the top of their libraries.
I like Scroll Rack quite a bit, but it may lose out to some of the redundant effects (Top, Library, Jace, etc) in small really small lists. It can do some work with shuffle effects though, and being able to manipulate a large percentage of your library shouldn't be underrated. It's also great with Tinker, because not only can you dig for Tinker, but you can also tuck your target into your library and give yourself an artifact to sac to it. Also, really good with Miracle spells.
I dislike scroll rack for the same reason I dislike top. It is certainly fine to good (I've never seen it be amazing) in some decks, but it delays rounds so much such a large percentage of the time that the marginal benefit of the card being good in a few decks is not worth the annoyance to the pacing of the draft, especially in our drafts where we have 8-10 pretty much every week and don't need a card that will single-handedly stretch out the rounds. If you are generally playing smaller drafts, don't care about 3/4 of the games sitting around and waiting for the round to finish, or play with people who have played with top/rack a lot and can resolve them quickly, then go ahead and test it.
It certainly is NOT good in any type of deck though. It's horrendous in and against aggro, it's not card parity like brainstorm and is in fact card disadvantage (although you can make up for this in card quality with enough shuffle effects), there aren't a lot of shuffle effects in most cube lists, meaning what it is a lot of the time is a 3 mana brainstorm for 5 that puts you down a card. It's fine in decks that are trying to assemble combo pieces like reanimator, tinker, or storm if you support it, or in decks that have a lot of silver bullets. Lots of lists don't want it though, as modern cube lists are so tight that the decks that spend time durdling around with stuff like top and scroll rack get run over by the decks that are actually doing stuff.
I don't think the time factor is a concern at all. It doesn't take that long to resolve the activations, and it doesn't slow the overall game down any more than a Wrath of God does.
I don't think the time factor is a concern at all. It doesn't take that long to resolve the activations, and it doesn't slow the overall game down any more than a Wrath of God does.
I think it really depends on the group. Some players don't have a lot of experience with Top/Rack, or they aren't good at planning ahead, or they aren't able to remember what cards are on the top of their library if they are used to playing with only the cards that they can see. This isn't so hard for players with lots of play experience or who have card abilities memorized by name, but for a lot of players that have only been playing for a couple years at most, Top/Rack can take a lot of time to think about which cards to put back and plan their next move. If they do this *every turn*, it can certainly drag games out just by the nature of the card.
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Very true. We all have a fair amount of experience with both cards, so our activations/decisions are relatively quick. I was just offering up my experiences with them; obviously timing will be different from one group to the next. This can happen with a lot of cube cards though. Slow play and time-intensive decision-making can occur everywhere, regardless of the which cards are being used. Tutors are often slow-to-resolve cards because securing the one right card can often be a hard choice, especially given complicated board states ...I just wouldn't use it as a metric to ban cards.
I wouldn't either. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's not worth mastering. Practice makes progress, after all. I include both Top and Rack because I like what they add to my cube, and although I have seen some games go long, each time a player uses the card it gets a little faster. Like anything, it really comes down to how much time you're willing to dedicate to the game, and I suppose that gives most cube owners/designers a huge advantage over people that don't cube often since we know most of this stuff like the back of our hands.
Anyway, off-track discussion a little bit. To summarize, I'd say that Top/Rack *can* slow games down, especially with new/unexperienced players, but that's not a reason to keep them out of your lists. They are bad against aggro but will win you games against midrange and other control decks, especially when paired with shuffle effects.
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Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I think the time factor is a non-issue, as you should be deciding what cards to ship and the order BEFORE you activate, not afterwards.
And time-wise, this card is WAY faster than a Sensei's Divining Top.
Also, it's awesome. You get to shuffle cards back into the deck (a la Brainstorm) for things like Tinker/Natural Order. it is bonkers with Miracle spells, and you get to ship back unwanted cards for fresh ones. What's not to love?
Very true. We all have a fair amount of experience with both cards, so our activations/decisions are relatively quick. I was just offering up my experiences with them; obviously timing will be different from one group to the next. This can happen with a lot of cube cards though. Slow play and time-intensive decision-making can occur everywhere, regardless of the which cards are being used. Tutors are often slow-to-resolve cards because securing the one right card can often be a hard choice, especially given complicated board states ...I just wouldn't use it as a metric to ban cards.
We have several more casual players that play with us occasionally, and it does take them a long time to resolve top and rack activations. I'm not using it as a reason to "ban" the card per se, but for a card that is already rather middling it's not worth the tiny amount of shoring it up it does in the few archetypes it's good in to make it worth the added time for us. Now, something like PW Karn can also slow rounds down, but it's such a powerful, cool card that the slowing down factor does not offset the other reasons to run it (same with wraths, etc, I'm sure there a lots of other cards that slow rounds down). But rack is just not even that good, doesn't feel like it's doing anything when it is slowing the game down (when I wrath, all the creatures go to the yard and away we go, too often when people top/rack, they set aside their cards, look at the cards they just got, look at the cards they are exiling again, look at the cards they just got, think about 5 lines of play, then order the cards and put them on top. To the opponent this feels like nothing is happening). This is just not worth it to me for borderline cubable cards. Even if time wasn't a factor, I don't think rack and top are particularly needed as mediocre quasi-tutors for combo decks or occasional almost-brainstorms with shuffle effects, when there aren't that many shuffles in cube.
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with 'rack is just not even that good'. Does it get better with ways to change to top cards? Absolutely. Luckily, there are increasing numbers of those nowadays with Khans, and mostly all the cards that allow you to shuffle or take the top of your deck off (Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge, and the like) are good and should be in your deck as often as possible
I play with one of the actual slowest players ever (ask cuttups, he knows who I'm talking about and can vouch that I'm not exaggerating) who plays scroll rack quite a bit, and it's rarely an issue. With players who are unfamiliar with cube and all the interactions, scroll rack can take a long time to set up because they have so much more to consider, but when your players are familiar with your cube and what's possible they'll typically know what they're looking for and set it up. We are also OK with rounds taking an hour--sometimes more--to complete, so to each one's own in that case.
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with 'rack is just not even that good'. Does it get better with ways to change to top cards? Absolutely. Luckily, there are increasing numbers of those nowadays with Khans, and mostly all the cards that allow you to shuffle or take the top of your deck off (Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge, and the like) are good and should be in your deck as often as possible
-AA
What in Khan's is increasing shuffling? Or do you just mean more people will cube with fetches now that they will be cheaper? Either way, YMMV but I do cube pretty regularly with someone else who runs both top and rack, and have never been impressed with either, either in my deck or against me. You just can't durdle like you used to and get away with it IMO. As I said, though, in slower, more classic cubes with people that can resolve the effect quickly/don't care if rounds get extended, go for it.
Edit - I would be curious what decks you've run/played against where rack was amazing without consistent shuffle effects though. Good draw spells like research (we don't run thirst) don't really need other spells around them to make them better - they are already great card advantage cards on their own. It's like saying FoF makes rack better because it gets cards off the top of your library - sure, it does, but you don't need cards that just make FoF better.
My advice to people wanting to try the card is the same as it is for all relatively unique effects like this - I may like it or not like it, but at the end of the day as long as the card is close in power level, just proxy it up/sleeve it up and test it. your own play group is always the best barometer for whether or not your cube wants a specific card. Even if it's not "good" enough, people may love playing with it, and at the end of the day that's what matters.
Top is stronger on power level than Scroll Rack is. I would play Scroll Rack at 450, but not 360.
On power level alone, Top is the better card for sure. Lower mana cost, ability to manipulate your library multiple times a turn, working MUCH better when you're low on cards in hand, going into more variety of decks all put it over the edge for me. Scroll Rack has slightly better combo interactions.
Scroll Rack is not as great an offender on time, which is the main reason I would play it over Top if I were to ever do that (but I wouldn't).
Top - 360 autoinclude (but not all-star)
Rack - 450 autoinclude (but not all-star)
Top is stronger on power level than Scroll Rack is. I would play Scroll Rack at 450, but not 360.
On power level alone, Top is the better card for sure. Lower mana cost, ability to manipulate your library multiple times a turn, working MUCH better when you're low on cards in hand, going into more variety of decks all put it over the edge for me. Scroll Rack has slightly better combo interactions.
Scroll Rack is not as great an offender on time, which is the main reason I would play it over Top if I were to ever do that (but I wouldn't).
Top - 360 autoinclude (but not all-star)
Rack - 450 autoinclude (but not all-star)
These are my thoughts on the two right now as well. I think both cards are probably good enough for 360 based on power-level, but it's a redundant effect at a size where making room for redundancies is hard.
Control decks are usually the big winner for Scroll Rack, but midrange-type decks also can make good use of it. That makes blue the best color for it (in addition to artifact+blue cards being a thing), but I've certainly seen it put to work in virtually everything but aggro and tempo strategies. With that in mind, here are some cards that see play that can change the top cards of your deck (either thru shuffling or milling or drawing) that I've seen put to work in conjuntion with Rack (going to type it out for future reference with Divining Top discussions, too):
10 fetches
Hideaway Lands (Shelldock, at least)
Wayfarer's Bauble
Crystal Ball
Solemn Simulacrum
Flagstones of Trokair
Krosan Verge
Tolaria West
Land Tax
Weathered Wayfarer
Stoneforge Mystic
Eternal Dragon
Enlightened Tutor
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Jace x4 (not the Living Guildpact)
Impulse
Thirst for Knowledge
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Stroke of Genius
Tezzeret, the Seeker
Ponder
Preordain
Compulsive Research
Timetwister
Tinker
Time Spiral
Future Sight
Liliana Vess
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Black Sun's Zenith
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Countryside Crusher
Bonfire of the Damned
Fauna Shaman
Survival of the Fittest
Natural Order
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Farseek
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Yavimaya Elder
Rampant Growth
Courser of Kruphix
Oracle of Mul Daya
Primeval Titan
Life from the Loam
Search for Tomorrow
Green Sun's Zenith
Sphinx's Revelation
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Bloodbraid Elf
Shardless Agent
Maelstrom Wanderer
Knight of the Reliquary
Steam Augury
(whew...I'm sure I missed some, too!)
Having easier access to the old fetches certainly helps, but new ways to change the top cards of your deck also include Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Sidisi, all cards which fit very comfortably into the good archetypes for Scroll Rack.
But, the vast majority of those cards aren't even playable in normal 360-450 lists, and I'm still not convinced that spells that straight draw you cards make rack better or are made better by rack. Does brainstorm make ancestral recall better? Does it make necro better? I am not convinced it does, and the same argument applies to rack.
Further, I also almost always see these cards in control decks, then those decks, that are softest against aggro, spend t2 playing a rack, turn 3 digging for a wrath, and then die before they can even wrath because they had no permanents in play that impacted the board. Sure, it might help in control v midrange (where control needs no help) and the control mirrors, but as I stated initially, that's a pretty narrow scenario for including a card. While I will admit that racking away 5 cards or something then casting dig through time would be great, if you are spending your time racking, cards aren't going to your graveyard and you aren't casting dig through time anytime soon.
I just remain unconvinced that tight cube lists are slow enough to allow for this kind of durdling. For bigger or slower cubes, sure.
There are some lower-powered cards on there, but a lot of those cards:
10 fetches
Solemn Simulacrum
Land Tax
Stoneforge Mystic
Enlightened Tutor
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Jace x4 (At least 2)
Impulse
Thirst for Knowledge
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Tezzeret, the Seeker
Ponder
Preordain
Timetwister
Tinker
Time Spiral
Liliana Vess
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Black Sun's Zenith
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Bonfire of the Damned
Fauna Shaman
Survival of the Fittest
Natural Order
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Courser of Kruphix
Oracle of Mul Daya
Primeval Titan
Life from the Loam
Search for Tomorrow
Green Sun's Zenith
Sphinx's Revelation
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Bloodbraid Elf
Shardless Agent
Maelstrom Wanderer
Knight of the Reliquary
Could certainly see play at 450 if not 360, depending on archetype support and powered/unpowered decisions. I have a 540 unpowered, so I'm not sure what a 'typical' 'small' Cube exactly looks like, but these cards are all pretty spiffy.
It is okay. I mainly run it (and top) as trap cards that other people rush to pick, and then I crush them while they are screwing around with the top of their libraries.
Post #2 and totally nailed it! (Though to be fair, I don't run it. I just have been in that seat countless times in other people's cubes.)
I don't understand what listing all of the shufflers even accomplishes, they're great with both Top and Rack, so I wouldn't base my decision to include either off of shuffle effects at all.
Curious if anyone cubes this card. It seems like it could be powerful in almost any kind of deck: it digs for lands, threats, and/or answers, kind of like a repeatable, scalable Brainstorm. Is it too weak without shuffle effects, though? How does it rank against something like Top (which I see fell from favor in the latest power poll) or Memory Jar?
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It certainly is NOT good in any type of deck though. It's horrendous in and against aggro, it's not card parity like brainstorm and is in fact card disadvantage (although you can make up for this in card quality with enough shuffle effects), there aren't a lot of shuffle effects in most cube lists, meaning what it is a lot of the time is a 3 mana brainstorm for 5 that puts you down a card. It's fine in decks that are trying to assemble combo pieces like reanimator, tinker, or storm if you support it, or in decks that have a lot of silver bullets. Lots of lists don't want it though, as modern cube lists are so tight that the decks that spend time durdling around with stuff like top and scroll rack get run over by the decks that are actually doing stuff.
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I think it really depends on the group. Some players don't have a lot of experience with Top/Rack, or they aren't good at planning ahead, or they aren't able to remember what cards are on the top of their library if they are used to playing with only the cards that they can see. This isn't so hard for players with lots of play experience or who have card abilities memorized by name, but for a lot of players that have only been playing for a couple years at most, Top/Rack can take a lot of time to think about which cards to put back and plan their next move. If they do this *every turn*, it can certainly drag games out just by the nature of the card.
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Anyway, off-track discussion a little bit. To summarize, I'd say that Top/Rack *can* slow games down, especially with new/unexperienced players, but that's not a reason to keep them out of your lists. They are bad against aggro but will win you games against midrange and other control decks, especially when paired with shuffle effects.
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Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Shaharazad >>>>> Constant Mists > Sensei's Divining Top >>>> Scroll Rack > Wraths
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On topic, I plan to run Scroll Rack, but I'm waiting until I can pick up the 10 fetches. Is it worth it even without them?
And time-wise, this card is WAY faster than a Sensei's Divining Top.
Also, it's awesome. You get to shuffle cards back into the deck (a la Brainstorm) for things like Tinker/Natural Order. it is bonkers with Miracle spells, and you get to ship back unwanted cards for fresh ones. What's not to love?
-AA
P.S. Add Land Tax for actual Ancestral!
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We have several more casual players that play with us occasionally, and it does take them a long time to resolve top and rack activations. I'm not using it as a reason to "ban" the card per se, but for a card that is already rather middling it's not worth the tiny amount of shoring it up it does in the few archetypes it's good in to make it worth the added time for us. Now, something like PW Karn can also slow rounds down, but it's such a powerful, cool card that the slowing down factor does not offset the other reasons to run it (same with wraths, etc, I'm sure there a lots of other cards that slow rounds down). But rack is just not even that good, doesn't feel like it's doing anything when it is slowing the game down (when I wrath, all the creatures go to the yard and away we go, too often when people top/rack, they set aside their cards, look at the cards they just got, look at the cards they are exiling again, look at the cards they just got, think about 5 lines of play, then order the cards and put them on top. To the opponent this feels like nothing is happening). This is just not worth it to me for borderline cubable cards. Even if time wasn't a factor, I don't think rack and top are particularly needed as mediocre quasi-tutors for combo decks or occasional almost-brainstorms with shuffle effects, when there aren't that many shuffles in cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
-AA
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What in Khan's is increasing shuffling? Or do you just mean more people will cube with fetches now that they will be cheaper? Either way, YMMV but I do cube pretty regularly with someone else who runs both top and rack, and have never been impressed with either, either in my deck or against me. You just can't durdle like you used to and get away with it IMO. As I said, though, in slower, more classic cubes with people that can resolve the effect quickly/don't care if rounds get extended, go for it.
Edit - I would be curious what decks you've run/played against where rack was amazing without consistent shuffle effects though. Good draw spells like research (we don't run thirst) don't really need other spells around them to make them better - they are already great card advantage cards on their own. It's like saying FoF makes rack better because it gets cards off the top of your library - sure, it does, but you don't need cards that just make FoF better.
My advice to people wanting to try the card is the same as it is for all relatively unique effects like this - I may like it or not like it, but at the end of the day as long as the card is close in power level, just proxy it up/sleeve it up and test it. your own play group is always the best barometer for whether or not your cube wants a specific card. Even if it's not "good" enough, people may love playing with it, and at the end of the day that's what matters.
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On power level alone, Top is the better card for sure. Lower mana cost, ability to manipulate your library multiple times a turn, working MUCH better when you're low on cards in hand, going into more variety of decks all put it over the edge for me. Scroll Rack has slightly better combo interactions.
Scroll Rack is not as great an offender on time, which is the main reason I would play it over Top if I were to ever do that (but I wouldn't).
Top - 360 autoinclude (but not all-star)
Rack - 450 autoinclude (but not all-star)
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These are my thoughts on the two right now as well. I think both cards are probably good enough for 360 based on power-level, but it's a redundant effect at a size where making room for redundancies is hard.
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Hideaway Lands (Shelldock, at least)
Wayfarer's Bauble
Crystal Ball
Solemn Simulacrum
Flagstones of Trokair
Krosan Verge
Tolaria West
Land Tax
Weathered Wayfarer
Stoneforge Mystic
Eternal Dragon
Enlightened Tutor
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Jace x4 (not the Living Guildpact)
Impulse
Thirst for Knowledge
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Stroke of Genius
Tezzeret, the Seeker
Ponder
Preordain
Compulsive Research
Timetwister
Tinker
Time Spiral
Future Sight
Liliana Vess
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Black Sun's Zenith
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Countryside Crusher
Bonfire of the Damned
Fauna Shaman
Survival of the Fittest
Natural Order
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Farseek
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Yavimaya Elder
Rampant Growth
Courser of Kruphix
Oracle of Mul Daya
Primeval Titan
Life from the Loam
Search for Tomorrow
Green Sun's Zenith
Sphinx's Revelation
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Bloodbraid Elf
Shardless Agent
Maelstrom Wanderer
Knight of the Reliquary
Steam Augury
(whew...I'm sure I missed some, too!)
Having easier access to the old fetches certainly helps, but new ways to change the top cards of your deck also include Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Sidisi, all cards which fit very comfortably into the good archetypes for Scroll Rack.
-AA
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Further, I also almost always see these cards in control decks, then those decks, that are softest against aggro, spend t2 playing a rack, turn 3 digging for a wrath, and then die before they can even wrath because they had no permanents in play that impacted the board. Sure, it might help in control v midrange (where control needs no help) and the control mirrors, but as I stated initially, that's a pretty narrow scenario for including a card. While I will admit that racking away 5 cards or something then casting dig through time would be great, if you are spending your time racking, cards aren't going to your graveyard and you aren't casting dig through time anytime soon.
I just remain unconvinced that tight cube lists are slow enough to allow for this kind of durdling. For bigger or slower cubes, sure.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Solemn Simulacrum
Land Tax
Stoneforge Mystic
Enlightened Tutor
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Jace x4 (At least 2)
Impulse
Thirst for Knowledge
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Tezzeret, the Seeker
Ponder
Preordain
Timetwister
Tinker
Time Spiral
Liliana Vess
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Black Sun's Zenith
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Bonfire of the Damned
Fauna Shaman
Survival of the Fittest
Natural Order
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Courser of Kruphix
Oracle of Mul Daya
Primeval Titan
Life from the Loam
Search for Tomorrow
Green Sun's Zenith
Sphinx's Revelation
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Bloodbraid Elf
Shardless Agent
Maelstrom Wanderer
Knight of the Reliquary
Could certainly see play at 450 if not 360, depending on archetype support and powered/unpowered decisions. I have a 540 unpowered, so I'm not sure what a 'typical' 'small' Cube exactly looks like, but these cards are all pretty spiffy.
-AA
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Post #2 and totally nailed it! (Though to be fair, I don't run it. I just have been in that seat countless times in other people's cubes.)
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