I drafted and witness firsthand the playability of the Swiftspear. I think it's a trap. If it can't even pass in its own limited environment it's really difficult to make the cut in Cube.
I'm with wtwlf here.
Also, never compare it with Young Pyro. He passes the bear test.
While I agree there is a chance this guys is too narrow, I hesitate to take a cards's limited environment as speaking directly to cube. Bobms in limited may be bombs in cube, but some constructed only cards also do well in cube. And I can guarantee this card will see constructed play. Potentially in modern as well.
As for me I saw a guy at the prerelease with two of these and lots of burn, bounce, and fight cards. He ended up winning the 50 person tournament. Not solely on the shoulders of these cards but there is certainly a context for them.
And the other thing many of us are dealing with is that we would love to have another Jackal Pup or Gods-Forbid Savannah Lion in Red. But I am looking at this or Waif et al.
For me I want to look at narrowness. There is a deck I love to draft where this guy might be close to Goblin Guide level. But how will it do in the million other red decks that guide excels in? Probably mediocre. So in my opinion, for cubers>360 this guy is worth a test. So far for me he is in, but the bottom of the 1 drop heap.
Not that it's directly relevant for Cube, but a deck with 4 Swiftspears (and, incidentally, 4 Treasure Cruise) just won the first Khans-legal Legacy tournament. Pretty funny that two cards that were summarily dismissed for Cube turn out to be Legacy staples. I guess the moral of the story is that if your entire deck costs zero or one mana, this guy is pretty damn good.
Not that it's directly relevant for Cube, but a deck with 4 Swiftspears (and, incidentally, 4 Treasure Cruise) just won the first Khans-legal Legacy tournament. Pretty funny that two cards that were summarily dismissed for Cube turn out to be Legacy staples. I guess the moral of the story is that if your entire deck costs zero or one mana, this guy is pretty damn good in legacy.
Added a bit there. Sadly being good in one format does not translate over to cube. Much easier to make a constructed deck around it than to draft around it.
I stand by my earlier assessment of her: her value really hinges on how much your cube focuses on burn as opposed to creature-based aggro. Her key flaw is that she's very bad at being a clock all by herself, so your opponent is never obligated to try to remove her. When the rest of your deck is a built-in clock that speeds her up, that doesn't matter so much, and the raw power level wins out (and as proven by that legacy deck, the power level is definitely there).
As far as prowess creatures go, I'm much higher on Seeker of the Way for cube. That card only needs one or two activations for a worthwhile life swing, is an acceptable clock on its own, and can slot into midrangier strategies with a lower creature count. I'll give it a test run in the next few days.
I also like Seeker of the Way more than the Swiftspear. I think the reason Swiftspear gets so much more attention is just that everybody has cravings for new cubeable red 1-drops, while we're already more than satisfied with white 2-drops.
@dschumm: I don't disagree there. But I think Cube cards are in between the spectrum of Constructed and Draft decks. But falls closer to limited at the end of the day.
Because Cube -> singleton. Most cards in cube need to be standalone good. I myself love some synergy cards (I do have Kiln Fiend and Nivix Cyclops :heart:), but admittedly I also understand the need for standalone cards to be the majority, because they carry much of the weight (of a successful cube).
As one of the posters mentioned, Swiftspear just won a legacy tourney, but it's absolutely nothing without the cantrips and free spells.
Also, the vanilla test. I think almost any cube creature has to either pass the vanilla test, or must have some absurd ability to mitigate its weak stats.
I think people are overestimating how good her competition is at getting damage through.
Like "damn, if this was only a jackal pup here, id be winning" is the thought process that is required when evaluating. This has actually been happening?
And the card is quite good in it's limited format, just have to know the deck to put it in.
I think people are overestimating how good her competition is at getting damage through.
Like "damn, if this was only a jackal pup here, id be winning" is the thought process that is required when evaluating. This has actually been happening?
Yes, actually. When I was testing this creature out, I would've exchanged it for a Jackal Pup at any time and been much happier for it.
I think people are overestimating how good her competition is at getting damage through.
Like "damn, if this was only a jackal pup here, id be winning" is the thought process that is required when evaluating. This has actually been happening?
Yes, actually. When I was testing this creature out, I would've exchanged it for a Jackal Pup at any time and been much happier for it.
The the problem is I find Jackal Pup to be #4 of pure-red's one drops. So while I am dying for more goblin guides and firedrinker satyr's this gal is probably sticking in my cube for a while.
In a seeded draft I went turn one swiftspear, hit for 1, turn 2 bonesplitter, hit for 4, turn 3 reckless charge + Berserk, hit for 16. Game. Best case scenerio for sure, but in a deck a little light on creatures, that wants to get mileage out of each one, it's a hell of a one drop.
Any new thoughts on this girl? I'm dying for another 1 drop and I'm kind of liking her more than Waif and Loyalist. She does look real nice with equipment.
Not that it's directly relevant for Cube, but a deck with 4 Swiftspears (and, incidentally, 4 Treasure Cruise) just won the first Khans-legal Legacy tournament. Pretty funny that two cards that were summarily dismissed for Cube turn out to be Legacy staples. I guess the moral of the story is that if your entire deck costs zero or one mana, this guy is pretty damn good.
There are literally dozens of cards that are amazing in legacy that do jack in cube. Legacy playability, for better or worse, has very little bearing on cube playability when you aren't talking about pure value guys like bob or stoneforge, and especially with respect to "combo" cards like swiftspear and cruise.
Not that it's directly relevant for Cube, but a deck with 4 Swiftspears (and, incidentally, 4 Treasure Cruise) just won the first Khans-legal Legacy tournament. Pretty funny that two cards that were summarily dismissed for Cube turn out to be Legacy staples. I guess the moral of the story is that if your entire deck costs zero or one mana, this guy is pretty damn good.
There are literally dozens of cards that are amazing in legacy that do jack in cube. Legacy playability, for better or worse, has very little bearing on cube playability when you aren't talking about pure value guys like bob or stoneforge, and especially with respect to "combo" cards like swiftspear and cruise.
Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise arent combo cards, they are just really good. Even in cubes.
Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise arent combo cards, they are just really good. Even in cubes.
Which is why I put "combo" in quotes. While they aren't true combo cards like tendrils, grindstone, etc they are "combo" cards in that they require a lot of other cards around them to be good. For swift spear, you either need to be chaining cantrips or have a ton of redundant 1-mana burn spells, most of which you want going to the face. That's easy to do in constructed. It's much harder in cube. Same with cruise. You want a deck that is a ton of cantripping cheap spells and a ton of fetch lands. Again, easy in constructed, hard in cube. Neither card is "really good" in cubes. They are both fringe playables at anything below probably 450. They are both defensible as personal preference cards, but they aren't "really good."
Treasure Cruise has definitely been at its best in storm here. It's seen some play in blue controlling decks but it shines in a deck that wants to fill up the graveyard for Cabal Ritual, Yawgmoth's Will, and Past in Flames. Even if Delve and the cards I just mentioned are at-ends, sometimes you just need to Treasure Cruise, and you can remove spells that aren't relevant off Will or Past. I have seen a storm player remove more with delve than he should have, which cost him the game. I like that element of the card in that it rewards good play.
Swiftspear is just an aggro beater for the most part. Young Pyromancer is more comborific than Swiftspear, and we generally don't refer to him as a combo card.
Swiftspear is just an aggro beater for the most part. Young Pyromancer is more comborific than Swiftspear, and we generally don't refer to him as a combo card.
That's becase if you get 1-2 activations off of pyro, you're doing really well, and the tokens stick around. If you get 1-2 activations of swiftspear, well, thats pretty bad, especially of those activations are t3-4 or later. Pyromancer activations are good at any stage of the game. Also, you get pyro activations during your opponents turn, so it actually works with all instants when you would normally play them. Swiftspear doesn't. I would onlt play swiftspear in monoR that had at least 10 burn spells which is not that common in cube (and it's not like it's even super necessary for that archetype.) Pyro goes in any deck with lots of spells, UR, BR, etc. Again, that's why I put "combo" in quotes.
Also, the low end of swiftspear whan you aren't playing a ton of spells in a game is sooooo much worse than pyro.
All I know is ive played Swiftspear in my cube, its hardly ever not a 2 power creature when I want it to be, and sometimes more. No drawbacks. Its a fine cube 1 drop.
Going to try this out in place of Spikeshot Elder. Seems like an upgrade to me.
As much as I think this card is middling at best, it is almost certainly better than spikeshot (which we played for about 6 months before we started getting a slew of good red aggro creatures) and if you're still running him I would make the switch. Although, I would say there is a premium deck version of Jackal Pup with a modern border which would be a better include than swiftspear, but I don't know if that meets your rules for modern frames.
How does this card compare to Mogg Fanatic? I asked this in the This or That discussion but wanted to get some more thoughts because I haven't been able to do much testing lately. Currently running the Fanatic in my cube and wondering if the Swiftspear > or = or < to this guy.
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How does this card compare to Mogg Fanatic? I asked this in the This or That discussion but wanted to get some more thoughts because I haven't been able to do much testing lately. Currently running the Fanatic in my cube and wondering if the Swiftspear > or = or < to this guy.
I would guess that swiftspear is better than fanatic because fanatic is pretty abysmal without DOTS. Switspear can actually attack into 1 power guys and gets to attack for 2 some amount of the time. The fact that fanatic can only attack for 1 always is not made up for by the fact that it also gets to occasionally be the worst shock ever.
Going to try this out in place of Spikeshot Elder. Seems like an upgrade to me.
As much as I think this card is middling at best, it is almost certainly better than spikeshot (which we played for about 6 months before we started getting a slew of good red aggro creatures) and if you're still running him I would make the switch. Although, I would say there is a premium deck version of Jackal Pup with a modern border which would be a better include than swiftspear, but I don't know if that meets your rules for modern frames.
Part of the "modern-frame only" impetus for me was about accessibility and availability of cards also. I'll never be able to run anything on the reserved list, for example. I don't run any foils at all. Otherwise, I could be running an $800 Force of Will, $50 Berserk, etc. Though I will say the recent From the Vaults have made some previous ridiculous stuff (like Armageddon) a bit more reasonable. Reanimator is the archetype that suffers the most from the restriction honestly.
[quote from="asmallcat »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/card-and-archetype-discussion/new-card-discussion/571828-cube-monastery-swiftspear?comment=76"]
Part of the "modern-frame only" impetus for me was about accessibility and availability of cards also. I'll never be able to run anything on the reserved list, for example. I don't run any foils at all. Otherwise, I could be running an $800 Force of Will, $50 Berserk, etc. Though I will say the recent From the Vaults have made some previous ridiculous stuff (like Armageddon) a bit more reasonable. Reanimator is the archetype that suffers the most from the restriction honestly.
I figured you knew about it, just wanted to mention it on the off-chance you didn't. Either way, sounds like a fun restriction to try and build a cube with!
While I agree there is a chance this guys is too narrow, I hesitate to take a cards's limited environment as speaking directly to cube. Bobms in limited may be bombs in cube, but some constructed only cards also do well in cube. And I can guarantee this card will see constructed play. Potentially in modern as well.
As for me I saw a guy at the prerelease with two of these and lots of burn, bounce, and fight cards. He ended up winning the 50 person tournament. Not solely on the shoulders of these cards but there is certainly a context for them.
And the other thing many of us are dealing with is that we would love to have another Jackal Pup or Gods-Forbid Savannah Lion in Red. But I am looking at this or Waif et al.
For me I want to look at narrowness. There is a deck I love to draft where this guy might be close to Goblin Guide level. But how will it do in the million other red decks that guide excels in? Probably mediocre. So in my opinion, for cubers>360 this guy is worth a test. So far for me he is in, but the bottom of the 1 drop heap.
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Added a bit there. Sadly being good in one format does not translate over to cube. Much easier to make a constructed deck around it than to draft around it.
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As far as prowess creatures go, I'm much higher on Seeker of the Way for cube. That card only needs one or two activations for a worthwhile life swing, is an acceptable clock on its own, and can slot into midrangier strategies with a lower creature count. I'll give it a test run in the next few days.
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Because Cube -> singleton. Most cards in cube need to be standalone good. I myself love some synergy cards (I do have Kiln Fiend and Nivix Cyclops :heart:), but admittedly I also understand the need for standalone cards to be the majority, because they carry much of the weight (of a successful cube).
As one of the posters mentioned, Swiftspear just won a legacy tourney, but it's absolutely nothing without the cantrips and free spells.
Also, the vanilla test. I think almost any cube creature has to either pass the vanilla test, or must have some absurd ability to mitigate its weak stats.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Like "damn, if this was only a jackal pup here, id be winning" is the thought process that is required when evaluating. This has actually been happening?
And the card is quite good in it's limited format, just have to know the deck to put it in.
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Yes, actually. When I was testing this creature out, I would've exchanged it for a Jackal Pup at any time and been much happier for it.
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The the problem is I find Jackal Pup to be #4 of pure-red's one drops. So while I am dying for more goblin guides and firedrinker satyr's this gal is probably sticking in my cube for a while.
In a seeded draft I went turn one swiftspear, hit for 1, turn 2 bonesplitter, hit for 4, turn 3 reckless charge + Berserk, hit for 16. Game. Best case scenerio for sure, but in a deck a little light on creatures, that wants to get mileage out of each one, it's a hell of a one drop.
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There are literally dozens of cards that are amazing in legacy that do jack in cube. Legacy playability, for better or worse, has very little bearing on cube playability when you aren't talking about pure value guys like bob or stoneforge, and especially with respect to "combo" cards like swiftspear and cruise.
465 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise arent combo cards, they are just really good. Even in cubes.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Which is why I put "combo" in quotes. While they aren't true combo cards like tendrils, grindstone, etc they are "combo" cards in that they require a lot of other cards around them to be good. For swift spear, you either need to be chaining cantrips or have a ton of redundant 1-mana burn spells, most of which you want going to the face. That's easy to do in constructed. It's much harder in cube. Same with cruise. You want a deck that is a ton of cantripping cheap spells and a ton of fetch lands. Again, easy in constructed, hard in cube. Neither card is "really good" in cubes. They are both fringe playables at anything below probably 450. They are both defensible as personal preference cards, but they aren't "really good."
465 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Swiftspear is just an aggro beater for the most part. Young Pyromancer is more comborific than Swiftspear, and we generally don't refer to him as a combo card.
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That's becase if you get 1-2 activations off of pyro, you're doing really well, and the tokens stick around. If you get 1-2 activations of swiftspear, well, thats pretty bad, especially of those activations are t3-4 or later. Pyromancer activations are good at any stage of the game. Also, you get pyro activations during your opponents turn, so it actually works with all instants when you would normally play them. Swiftspear doesn't. I would onlt play swiftspear in monoR that had at least 10 burn spells which is not that common in cube (and it's not like it's even super necessary for that archetype.) Pyro goes in any deck with lots of spells, UR, BR, etc. Again, that's why I put "combo" in quotes.
Also, the low end of swiftspear whan you aren't playing a ton of spells in a game is sooooo much worse than pyro.
465 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
As much as I think this card is middling at best, it is almost certainly better than spikeshot (which we played for about 6 months before we started getting a slew of good red aggro creatures) and if you're still running him I would make the switch. Although, I would say there is a premium deck version of Jackal Pup with a modern border which would be a better include than swiftspear, but I don't know if that meets your rules for modern frames.
465 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I would guess that swiftspear is better than fanatic because fanatic is pretty abysmal without DOTS. Switspear can actually attack into 1 power guys and gets to attack for 2 some amount of the time. The fact that fanatic can only attack for 1 always is not made up for by the fact that it also gets to occasionally be the worst shock ever.
465 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Part of the "modern-frame only" impetus for me was about accessibility and availability of cards also. I'll never be able to run anything on the reserved list, for example. I don't run any foils at all. Otherwise, I could be running an $800 Force of Will, $50 Berserk, etc. Though I will say the recent From the Vaults have made some previous ridiculous stuff (like Armageddon) a bit more reasonable. Reanimator is the archetype that suffers the most from the restriction honestly.
I figured you knew about it, just wanted to mention it on the off-chance you didn't. Either way, sounds like a fun restriction to try and build a cube with!
465 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588