Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Is this guy even that good? Seems pretty mediocre to me. He only swings for 2 when I cast a noncreture spell in the same turn? I mean, he's better than Raging Goblin but... man.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Is this guy even that good? Seems pretty mediocre to me. He only swings for 2 when I cast a noncreture spell in the same turn? I mean, he's better than Raging Goblin but... man.
Depends on the composition of your deck, really. If you're running this in a RG shell with a ton of creatures and only a couple token burn spells, then yeah it's going to suck. If you're running a burn-centric deck that relies on stuff like Shrine of Burning Rage, then this can easily be a Goblin Guide that swings through pikers and doesn't net you card disadvantage.
And even a few incidental points of extra damage can really add some punch to a Raging Goblin.
i think prowess is super underrated. in a red deck i can very easily be casting multiple noncreature spells to trigger this. planeswalkers, LD, all of that works.
Hrmmmm...
The thing is I have trouble finding room for Delver of Secrets, which seems much better than this guy. One drop aggro creatures need a critical mass of creatures. I just don't think this guy quite gets there.
And for reference I play kiln fiend and love it, it is just so much more explosive.
Not a terrible card, but a Raging Goblin with upside that isn't named Legion Loyalist probably isn't gonna be in my cube for long. My aggro decks want threats to either be evasive or consistently have more than 1 power.
Aggro 1 drops in red are sadly not particularly deep, and it's an area that I'm personally looking to beef up. I mean granted, it's worse than the top three for sure and probably worse than Stromkirk Noble too. However, I feel like in an ideal world I'd want 6 aggro 1 drops in red at 360, and this is an okay placeholder for slot #5 or #6 (depending on how you think it compares with Reckless Waif) even though it probably won't stay for long.
I can see why people are wanting to consider this. Black is getting incredible 1-drops almost every set while red is struggling to find enough playable 1-drops. That being said this card doesn't compare favorably to what I'm playing now. Also seems like they were sorta pushing it- a 1/2 for R? Weird
I evaluate red 1 drops in the context of damage output considering the # of turns it takes for the creature to be ineffective at pushing through damage, either via removal spell or facing a blocker.
Comparing raging goblin to rakdos cackler, it's clear why it is much worse.
It takes 3 turns for the cacklers damage to comfortably outpace the raging goblin. In the context of a 1 drop, 3 turns is significant. However, the key is that cackler is going to get through early game blockers or trade with blockers much more often. Plus if either creature sticks around for 4-5 turns, cackler dwarfs the damage output of raging goblin, giving it a much higher upside.
Comparing cackler to this Monastary swiftspear,
a) The opponents 2/2's cant blindly trade with the monk the way they can with the cackler. This is because you can threaten burning them to their face. This makes monastery sweeper harder to block than a rakdos cackler. Giving the monastery switfspear a key advantage over cackler, that cackler had over raging goblin!.
The threat of a 2 for 1 is so strong, that realistically it's very easy to bluff into a naked 2/2 blocker.
b) Swiftspear dies to the same removal as a vanilla 2/2. If you leave mana up, he can threaten to dodge a couple random red burn spells. Realistcally it's as easy to kill via removal as a vanilla 2/2.
Just looking at damage output of him compared to cackler now. If you cast a noncreature spell every other turn during his lifetime (a very reasonable average if playing a burn heavy red deck, at least until you hit madness).
It takes 5 turns for cackler to start outpacing him. In a deck that is trying to kill in 4-6 turns, that's pretty darn close in output. Looking at the chart below, it's clear that these creatures don't connect for more than 2-3 turns on average. If that were the case stromkirk noble would be the king, and he's clearly not
Stromkirk's over-performance on this chart also highlights the value starting with a 1/2 body vs a 1/1 body.
Now considering, that he's harder to block than cackler, and also gets in "under" removal/blockers for that free turn 1 damage. He definitely seems on the level of 2/2 for 1. And he can block!
In fact, if you are in a very spell heavy deck, he's clearly better.
But it also makes him more narrow. Questionable to play him in a deck without a fair # of spells.
My red decks tend to have enough burn that I think I would never cut this guy from my average red deck and in those decks, I'd definitely want him more than all the creatures I listed as tier 3.
A one drop that is dependent on other spells to make work is not exactly something you want as a red 1 drop.
I assume my post is TL;DR for a lot of people so here's a summary,
Synergizes with "any non-creatue spell", is not a big dependency.
Threatening a spell is usually enough to get it by 2/2 blockers. The spell itself is not necessary
Without any spells, a 1 mana haste 1/2 is not that far behind curve in damage output, despite how it appears.
Great point about the extra value of haste I didn't think of ausschilessi. Equipment is another great example of where being a cheap haste creature is huge.
This is a bit better than blistercoil weird; due to haste, extra toughness and extra triggers. But not that much.
I think this is not better than the one drops already in 450.
Perhaps in larger cubes that support a heavy "storm" archetype.
It's clear that this is not for smaller Cubes, but for the larger ones (where fetch lands are rare), I think a good comparison to make is Steppe Lynx.
Landfall is easier to trigger than Prowess, but not that much easier, and if you miss, the Swiftspear hits for 1 at least. The haste is a nice bonus too.
A red 1-drop doesn't have to be particularly good to be acceptable in a 720 list, which is where I'll run this.
I'm not stoked but I think Prowess and this card are much better than people are giving it credit for. That or I'm more on board to get all the 1cmc aggro dudes in my cube than most are.
At the worst it is like a Reckless Waif type card, where it doesn't quite do much until it's transformed. But unlike Waif you have the control of how good this card is. Plus he attacks through a lot of things even without Prowess due to threat of activation. Very testable at 450+.
I think this is a playable tier 3 red aggro creature, and larger cubes would probably be interested. After all, we need all the playable aggro beaters we can get. Unfortunately, this crushes my hopes for a good 2-power 1-drop in red for this set. Oh well.
I appreciate the great breakdown Lucidvision gives. At ~450 I feel I need 6 red 1 drops when I exclude the Cackler, Figure, and Kird Ape(They have more demands on them).
No one argues with the Tier 1 of Tier 2 classifications but that still leaves me one short. Spikeshot and Mogg Fanatic were big fails for my group and I wouldn't put Legion Loyalist in the same category as the rest of these cards. So I will stack this guy up against Reckless Waif. You have convinced me to try it.
The only thing that you didn't mention in the analysis was the timing change for you spells. A spell every other turn is believable for ACS, but it means casting spells pre damage every other turn, which is less likely. Much of my instant speed burn is used end of turn or in response so... it certainly loses a little.
That said anyone who tries this should put Kiln fiend and Young Pyromancer in at the same time.
Following LucidVision's tier list, I would put Monastery Swiftspear at a high tier 3. Which means it won't make the cut in small cubes, but I will certainly try it at 600. I think I am going to cut Spikeshot Elder, since that one isn't really a aggro creature and has always been a bit borderline.
I am glad to see a decent prowess 1-drop that goes into the decks that like Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe. Whereas Legion Loyalist is best in creature-heavy RW or RG aggro decks, this looks best in less creature-centric RB or RU aggro decks.
The only thing that you didn't mention in the analysis was the timing change for you spells. A spell every other turn is believable for ACS, but it means casting spells pre damage every other turn, which is less likely. Much of my instant speed burn is used end of turn or in response so... it certainly loses a little.
I didn't actually consider this, but you are right. Makes it a bit worse than I thought. Forces you to play your instant speed burn at effectively sorcery speed.
Realistically I think a spell (pre-combat) every other turn is a bit on the high side for ACS.
Had convinced myself he was solidly middle-top tier 2, but this makes me think he's close to bottom tier 2.
The only thing that you didn't mention in the analysis was the timing change for you spells. A spell every other turn is believable for ACS, but it means casting spells pre damage every other turn, which is less likely. Much of my instant speed burn is used end of turn or in response so... it certainly loses a little.
I didn't actually consider this, but you are right. Makes it a bit worse than I thought. Forces you to play your instant speed burn at effectively sorcery speed.
Realistically I think a spell (pre-combat) every other turn is a bit on the high side for ACS.
Had convinced myself he was solidly middle-top tier 2, but this makes me think he's close to bottom tier 2.
I've actually got volcanic hammers in where most of you guys have lightning strike and co (to help combat tricks be a thing), and I can attest that casting burn pre-combat isn't too much of a problem.
also interesting thought: given that this is considerable as a cubeable 1 drop, what kind of downside would a R 2/1 prowress have needed to be remotely fair? Makes you think
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Creature - Human Monk
Uncommon
Haste, Prowess
1/2
Well, so much for prowess not getting a push. I love how well this plays with burn spells.
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Edit: Actually, I think I could see this at 360. I might cut Reckless Waif for it, although I was planning to swap that out for a different card
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I think pauper might like him though.
Depends on the composition of your deck, really. If you're running this in a RG shell with a ton of creatures and only a couple token burn spells, then yeah it's going to suck. If you're running a burn-centric deck that relies on stuff like Shrine of Burning Rage, then this can easily be a Goblin Guide that swings through pikers and doesn't net you card disadvantage.
And even a few incidental points of extra damage can really add some punch to a Raging Goblin.
Cubetutor Link
thats my cube
The thing is I have trouble finding room for Delver of Secrets, which seems much better than this guy. One drop aggro creatures need a critical mass of creatures. I just don't think this guy quite gets there.
And for reference I play kiln fiend and love it, it is just so much more explosive.
Tier 1
Goblin guide
Grim lavamancer
Figure of destiny
Tier 2
Rakdos cackler
Firedrinker satyr
Jackal pup
Stromkirk noble
Tier 3
Tattermunge maniac
Legion Loyalist
Reckless waif
Mogg fanatic
Spikeshot elder
I evaluate red 1 drops in the context of damage output considering the # of turns it takes for the creature to be ineffective at pushing through damage, either via removal spell or facing a blocker.
Comparing raging goblin to rakdos cackler, it's clear why it is much worse.
It takes 3 turns for the cacklers damage to comfortably outpace the raging goblin. In the context of a 1 drop, 3 turns is significant. However, the key is that cackler is going to get through early game blockers or trade with blockers much more often. Plus if either creature sticks around for 4-5 turns, cackler dwarfs the damage output of raging goblin, giving it a much higher upside.
Comparing cackler to this Monastary swiftspear,
a) The opponents 2/2's cant blindly trade with the monk the way they can with the cackler. This is because you can threaten burning them to their face. This makes monastery sweeper harder to block than a rakdos cackler. Giving the monastery switfspear a key advantage over cackler, that cackler had over raging goblin!.
The threat of a 2 for 1 is so strong, that realistically it's very easy to bluff into a naked 2/2 blocker.
b) Swiftspear dies to the same removal as a vanilla 2/2. If you leave mana up, he can threaten to dodge a couple random red burn spells. Realistcally it's as easy to kill via removal as a vanilla 2/2.
Just looking at damage output of him compared to cackler now. If you cast a noncreature spell every other turn during his lifetime (a very reasonable average if playing a burn heavy red deck, at least until you hit madness).
It takes 5 turns for cackler to start outpacing him. In a deck that is trying to kill in 4-6 turns, that's pretty darn close in output. Looking at the chart below, it's clear that these creatures don't connect for more than 2-3 turns on average. If that were the case stromkirk noble would be the king, and he's clearly not
Stromkirk's over-performance on this chart also highlights the value starting with a 1/2 body vs a 1/1 body.
Damage output turns in play
1 2 3 4 5 6
Ragin 1 2 3 4 5 6
Swift 1 3 4 6 7 9
Cackl 0 2 4 6 8 10
Noble 0 1 3 6 10 15
Guide 2 4 6 8 10 12
Now considering, that he's harder to block than cackler, and also gets in "under" removal/blockers for that free turn 1 damage. He definitely seems on the level of 2/2 for 1. And he can block!
In fact, if you are in a very spell heavy deck, he's clearly better.
But it also makes him more narrow. Questionable to play him in a deck without a fair # of spells.
My red decks tend to have enough burn that I think I would never cut this guy from my average red deck and in those decks, I'd definitely want him more than all the creatures I listed as tier 3.
Last Updated 02/06/23
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I assume my post is TL;DR for a lot of people so here's a summary,
Synergizes with "any non-creatue spell", is not a big dependency.
Threatening a spell is usually enough to get it by 2/2 blockers. The spell itself is not necessary
Without any spells, a 1 mana haste 1/2 is not that far behind curve in damage output, despite how it appears.
Great point about the extra value of haste I didn't think of ausschilessi. Equipment is another great example of where being a cheap haste creature is huge.
Last Updated 02/06/23
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I think this is not better than the one drops already in 450.
Perhaps in larger cubes that support a heavy "storm" archetype.
Landfall is easier to trigger than Prowess, but not that much easier, and if you miss, the Swiftspear hits for 1 at least. The haste is a nice bonus too.
A red 1-drop doesn't have to be particularly good to be acceptable in a 720 list, which is where I'll run this.
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At the worst it is like a Reckless Waif type card, where it doesn't quite do much until it's transformed. But unlike Waif you have the control of how good this card is. Plus he attacks through a lot of things even without Prowess due to threat of activation. Very testable at 450+.
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No one argues with the Tier 1 of Tier 2 classifications but that still leaves me one short. Spikeshot and Mogg Fanatic were big fails for my group and I wouldn't put Legion Loyalist in the same category as the rest of these cards. So I will stack this guy up against Reckless Waif. You have convinced me to try it.
The only thing that you didn't mention in the analysis was the timing change for you spells. A spell every other turn is believable for ACS, but it means casting spells pre damage every other turn, which is less likely. Much of my instant speed burn is used end of turn or in response so... it certainly loses a little.
That said anyone who tries this should put Kiln fiend and Young Pyromancer in at the same time.
I am glad to see a decent prowess 1-drop that goes into the decks that like Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe. Whereas Legion Loyalist is best in creature-heavy RW or RG aggro decks, this looks best in less creature-centric RB or RU aggro decks.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I didn't actually consider this, but you are right. Makes it a bit worse than I thought. Forces you to play your instant speed burn at effectively sorcery speed.
Realistically I think a spell (pre-combat) every other turn is a bit on the high side for ACS.
Had convinced myself he was solidly middle-top tier 2, but this makes me think he's close to bottom tier 2.
Last Updated 02/06/23
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I've actually got volcanic hammers in where most of you guys have lightning strike and co (to help combat tricks be a thing), and I can attest that casting burn pre-combat isn't too much of a problem.
also interesting thought: given that this is considerable as a cubeable 1 drop, what kind of downside would a R 2/1 prowress have needed to be remotely fair? Makes you think