As far as I can tell this is a Phyrexian Arena that costs one more total mana but is COLORLESS and never loses you life? When you also consider any artifact synergies you can exploit with the card, the one extra total mana seems ok no?
That it is colorless card draw makes it interesting but I feel like that one mana difference between it and arena will mean it's only for bigger lists.
I was hoping the tied vote for it was the carnage, making it a new Disk, which gets planeswalkers as well. The card that gives you an extra vote is becoming better and better!
This is certainly interesting. But I just don't know how many cards you'd expect to draw with it on average because it comes down later. When it doesn't replace itself until T5 and doesn't generate CA until T6+, I think (but I'm not sure) the card may only be good enough in cubes that have a lot of long, drawn-out games.
Not good enough for me to get over the clunky will of the council business. I think it is about on par with Staff of Nim or Karanos and I am not running those.
It's on my radar. Compared to Phyrexian Arena, replacing BB and one life a turn with 3 and being an artefact seems at least a fair trade. The increasing quality of 3 drops has meant Arena I not played on curve so often these days anyway, more often at the end of the curve after the creatures have run out.
How much do other colors value this effect? Blue begrudgingly accepts its efficiency but is reluctant to tap out for it. Red can make the best use of it, but wants to be ending the game at 4 mana. Green has adored every draw effect it's gotten, but tends to draw into a lot of useless ramp spells in the lategame. I think White might actually want it most due to the scarcity of card advantage and plethora of removal.
I want to say it's good enough for most cubes. I like the idea of opening up control options to more colors, and I think this is efficient enough to be run in most slower decks anyway.
Will of the Council isn't clunky in duels at all. This card simply reads "At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card."
I like it a lot. People have been playing cards like Harmonize before just ot have some card draw in nonblue and non-black. This card seems a lot better at that.
It's clunky because the rules text doesn't read "At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card." It's not about the effect, it's about the templating.
Well, it does draw 2 cards before staff of nin draws any (assuming you're hitting your land drops) but I still think this comparison is a good place to start. You never get the disk when you want it, so essentially it's a 4-mana phyrexian arena without the life loss and a cheaper staff of nin that can't ping. I think testable in bigger cubes, but a bit too slow for tight lists of smaller sizes. The extra mana over arena hurts it a lot, as does occupying the same place on the curve that control decks want to be wrathing.
Staff of Nin costs SIX mana. This card is assuredly a lot better, both in a vacuum and in the fact that it can go into non-control decks. I think a universally castable Arena is a tempting thing indeed, personally.
Staff of Nin costs SIX mana. This card is assuredly a lot better, both in a vacuum and in the fact that it can go into non-control decks. I think a universally castable Arena is a tempting thing indeed, personally.
I agree that it's better than staff of nin, but I think the staff is a fine place to start for comparison's sake. I don't think staff is remotely close, so this has to be a lot better, and I don't think it's enough better. I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck, and I don't like in aggro for obvious reasons. I think it's good in midrange because you get to keep stocking up on value creatures and it makes you better at fighting through the control deck, but I don't know if that's enough to make it onto lists. I certainly don't think it's a terrible card, I just don't think it makes it in 450 and less lists.
Maybe it's good in powered where you can rush it out, but I have almost no experience with powered cube. It's also probably good enough for 450 lists that are slower than average.
I'll probably at least test this. I love Phyrexian Arena and I try to support all sorts of artifact decks, meaning this can hopefully be ramped into before turn 4 quite easily.
I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck
This isn't true - I often spend my turn four on draw spells like Deep Analysis, FoF, or Steam Augury or a PW with no or little immediate board impact, or many other similar permanents. Playing a draw engine on turn four hasn't caused me to 'die to every aggro deck', at all, and our aggro decks certainly don't durdle around either. Seems like a poor premise to evaluate any four drop really. Card seems pretty good to me, although fringe at 360, but then again, so is Arena.
I get that this is cheaper but 4 mana is such a crucial spot for my cube decks/games I rarely can afford to take the turn off. Cards like confidant/arena work so well because they squeeze in early when an opponent is set up yet or doing anything super important.
In a control deck will I give up my turn 4 wrath/counterspell option? Thassa was brilliant at 3 mana but would have been rough at 4. Deep analysis has never been cast on curve in my cube that I know of, and the that is the only 4 mana draw spell I have. (Gush also comes to mind)
This seems like something you drop after you have stabalized (Turn 6 with counter mana up) that will drive yo uto victory. I think I would rather play something like the top.
Don't get me wrong, I think some will like this but I have no idea what decks. Maybe mono-white control as mentioned above. My green decks have enjoyed big card advantage shots, but this seems too grindy. Whouldn't I rather be casting Thrun or other challenging midrange card that makes them blow 1+ cards while doing something as well.
And yes I meant clunky because non-regulars will have to read this card 12 times and then just pass it anyway. A white pulse makes it worth it, this not so much.
This seems like a great draw engine for ramp decks, which can go elf -> (more ramp or midrange guy) -> this -> T4 fatty. Requiring control decks to counter a four draop or play artifact removal seems sweet to me.
It might be good for classic UW control, though I'm not sure of the value of a card a turn these days.
Colorless card draw is sweet! Green needs card draw, and with all the turn 1 mana dorks, this comes out on turn 3. Control loves card draw and with all the turn 2 mana rocks, this comes out on turn 3. If you're control and facing off against aggro, stabilize first then drop this to close the game out. In an unpowered cube, the artifact section isn't so tight that there isn't room for a card like this if you like it. Powered cubes may be a different story though.
Very good card, nuts in ramp decks of any sort the only obvious downside is slowness. I think it beats crystal ball out of the park in terms of power, too bad the design and flavor is much worse.
I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck
This isn't true - I often spend my turn four on draw spells like Deep Analysis, FoF, or Steam Augury or a PW with no or little immediate board impact, or many other similar permanents. Playing a draw engine on turn four hasn't caused me to 'die to every aggro deck', at all, and our aggro decks certainly don't durdle around either. Seems like a poor premise to evaluate any four drop really. Card seems pretty good to me, although fringe at 360, but then again, so is Arena.
Well, the main difference between this and FoF or augury is obviously the instant speed. Those at least let you bluff counterspells. And with a 4cmc PW, hopefully it's something they feel compelled to answer so it ends up gaining you a bunch of life at worst. If you drop this on t4 you are going to be tapped out and wide open. It's just a concern I have. I don't think it's the only reason this card doesn't make the cut in my opinion, but being very bad (again, IMO) in controls worst match up is certainly something that concerns me when evaluating 4-drops. I think arena is substantially better than this card because of where they both sit on the curve. But obviously we won't really know until people start playing with it =D
Bluffing counterspells in general is not as amazing as people think it is. The player in the aggressive role is pretty much committed to their high-impact early spells, so playing around a counter really just means they're giving the defensive player more time, life and mana to build up their position.
Also, looks like Bottled Cloister has been forgotten. I'm going out on a limb and saying ninety percent of the time, those two cards are going to play the same.
If you have this and wrath/counterspell in hand, you are not required to drop this on t4. You can make the other sweet play. I could see playing this and answering my opponents things, and once we are both running out of gas, dropping this and running away with the game. I might try this out.
As far as I can tell this is a Phyrexian Arena that costs one more total mana but is COLORLESS and never loses you life? When you also consider any artifact synergies you can exploit with the card, the one extra total mana seems ok no?
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I want to say it's good enough for most cubes. I like the idea of opening up control options to more colors, and I think this is efficient enough to be run in most slower decks anyway.
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It's clunky because the rules text doesn't read "At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card." It's not about the effect, it's about the templating.
Well, it does draw 2 cards before staff of nin draws any (assuming you're hitting your land drops) but I still think this comparison is a good place to start. You never get the disk when you want it, so essentially it's a 4-mana phyrexian arena without the life loss and a cheaper staff of nin that can't ping. I think testable in bigger cubes, but a bit too slow for tight lists of smaller sizes. The extra mana over arena hurts it a lot, as does occupying the same place on the curve that control decks want to be wrathing.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I agree that it's better than staff of nin, but I think the staff is a fine place to start for comparison's sake. I don't think staff is remotely close, so this has to be a lot better, and I don't think it's enough better. I don't like it in control because if you spend turn 4 doing this you die to every aggro deck, and I don't like in aggro for obvious reasons. I think it's good in midrange because you get to keep stocking up on value creatures and it makes you better at fighting through the control deck, but I don't know if that's enough to make it onto lists. I certainly don't think it's a terrible card, I just don't think it makes it in 450 and less lists.
Maybe it's good in powered where you can rush it out, but I have almost no experience with powered cube. It's also probably good enough for 450 lists that are slower than average.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
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This isn't true - I often spend my turn four on draw spells like Deep Analysis, FoF, or Steam Augury or a PW with no or little immediate board impact, or many other similar permanents. Playing a draw engine on turn four hasn't caused me to 'die to every aggro deck', at all, and our aggro decks certainly don't durdle around either. Seems like a poor premise to evaluate any four drop really. Card seems pretty good to me, although fringe at 360, but then again, so is Arena.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
In a control deck will I give up my turn 4 wrath/counterspell option? Thassa was brilliant at 3 mana but would have been rough at 4. Deep analysis has never been cast on curve in my cube that I know of, and the that is the only 4 mana draw spell I have. (Gush also comes to mind)
This seems like something you drop after you have stabalized (Turn 6 with counter mana up) that will drive yo uto victory. I think I would rather play something like the top.
Don't get me wrong, I think some will like this but I have no idea what decks. Maybe mono-white control as mentioned above. My green decks have enjoyed big card advantage shots, but this seems too grindy. Whouldn't I rather be casting Thrun or other challenging midrange card that makes them blow 1+ cards while doing something as well.
And yes I meant clunky because non-regulars will have to read this card 12 times and then just pass it anyway. A white pulse makes it worth it, this not so much.
It might be good for classic UW control, though I'm not sure of the value of a card a turn these days.
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I also really wish these WotC cards had you vote last.
We wouldn't have gotten the new oblivion ring for 3cmc if that were the case, most likely.
Well, the main difference between this and FoF or augury is obviously the instant speed. Those at least let you bluff counterspells. And with a 4cmc PW, hopefully it's something they feel compelled to answer so it ends up gaining you a bunch of life at worst. If you drop this on t4 you are going to be tapped out and wide open. It's just a concern I have. I don't think it's the only reason this card doesn't make the cut in my opinion, but being very bad (again, IMO) in controls worst match up is certainly something that concerns me when evaluating 4-drops. I think arena is substantially better than this card because of where they both sit on the curve. But obviously we won't really know until people start playing with it =D
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Also, looks like Bottled Cloister has been forgotten. I'm going out on a limb and saying ninety percent of the time, those two cards are going to play the same.
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