Ya, but the regular tokens aren't cards. So you can kill a bunch of them with Maelstrom Pulse, but they can't benefit from Muzzio's Preparations, for example. Whereas I believe the Pack Rat copies can. And they also have a CMC of 2 (the Rat copies) instead of traditional token values of 0.
Well sure, but we were talking about Zzzyxas's Abyss, which doesn't involve naming a card.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy all nonland permanents with the first name alphabetically among nonland permanents in play.
Creature tokens do have names and they're permanents, so they die from Zzzyxas's Abyss. It doesn't say destroy all nonland cards, either on the card or in the oracle.
Muzzio's Preparations works how skidgod explained. Illusion is a fine thing to name with Muz Prep if you're playing Meloku. I know this ruling because this came up for us when we added conspiracies and I had to check somewhere.
Agreed. I thought the discussion was about Once More with Feeling not removing them because they're not cards, just like naming cards with conspiracies. I apologize for the communication breakdown and derail.
I don't think either are that great. I'd play the 8/8 since it does more damage per mana, can be activated on your turn and your opponent's, is a better creature, and doesn't cost you a card in hand (I'm assuming you're looking to pitch it to your graveyard whenever it's in your hand anyway).
My two black cards will be Booster Tutor and Necro-Impotence for sure. I think the third best option is probably Evil Presents or Zzzyxas's Abyss.
I actually think Stop That is the next best black card, and it's not particularly close. The card is worth at least 2 cards every game, if not more. Notice the number of people who flick their cards while they play, and you will see how effective this card can be.
Stop That isn't something I'd run just because its punishing players for their own habits and I'd rather Un-Cards be interesting and/or fun. It is strong enough, though.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Stop That isn't something I'd run just because its punishing players for their own habits and I'd rather Un-Cards be interesting and/or fun. It is strong enough, though.
Yep, I think this exactly.
Also, none of our playgroup flicks their cards (seriously, no one I know), so it wouldn't be very effective over here.
You are in the VAST minority, Colby, because I wager that the large majority of Magic players I see in tournaments fiddle with their cards while holding their hand.
Also, I was talking about strict power and not so much 'fun'. For those who flick, they get punished enough to devote brainpower not to do it and have to devote brainpower to not doing it (which could result in an advantage). Some people find that max power = fun, so there it is
The people I play with aren't your usual tournament going players so we don't ever see players flick their cards. The spell would be a terrible Raven's Crime here.
Just like how cards performing different in one environment doesn't translate to cube, neither does card flicking!
Zzzyxas's Abyss is interesting, it's too bad black's aggro creatures are extremely early in the alphabet and only a few Vampire ___ (Hexmage, Lacerator) and hardly any Zombie ____.
It does wreck walkers, artifacts, and enchantments and play well with the recurring dudes though almost all are early in the alphabet too (Bloodghast, Bloodied Champion...) but that is enough to keep your Abyss active.
Doesn't work with Ophiomancer, Curse of Shallow Graves, or Bitterblossom :(.
It's a very powerful effect that sits right in the sweet spot at 4 mana. I ran it as an alternative to Ravages of War because I have yet to acquire one (or proxy it), but it ended up being cut because the mana-cost is incredibly restrictive. If it were even 1WWW it would be more likely to stay for the same reasons that Cryptic Command is included, but it can only be realistically played in the heavy white aggro deck. In my cube, most of the decks are two colours or more unless someone gets really lucky, and it just wasn't worth the slot despite its power.
I think if I were running 540+ and in the market for some more Un-cards, it would come right back in. For my part, I found that even when it was drafted it was not main-decked enough because it was too hard to cast.
Having said all that, we never saw it with Unexpected Potential, but that would be pretty darn sweet.
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In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Zzzyxas's Abyss is interesting, it's too bad black's aggro creatures are extremely early in the alphabet and only a few Vampire ___ (Hexmage, Lacerator) and hardly any Zombie ____.
It does wreck walkers, artifacts, and enchantments and play well with the recurring dudes though almost all are early in the alphabet too (Bloodghast, Bloodied Champion...) but that is enough to keep your Abyss active.
Doesn't work with Ophiomancer, Curse of Shallow Graves, or Bitterblossom :(.
Is Necro-Impotence really better?
I'd use the Abyss in a control deck.
Necro-Impotence is much better here, where we support storm.
It depends; can you hear the cards moving in their hand? If so, that's 'audibly flicking' to me, and it's something that very few Magic players don't do.
@cuttups: The people in your group don't move the cards around in their hand? They hold them steady, and never re-arrange them audibly? I only use 'tournament player' because those are the places with the highest amount of Magic players; it's a numbers game, not a player-type thing. Going into people's houses wouldn't be very productive/safe to see if people are flicking cards, but going to GenCon or an SCG Open and the like give me sample sizes in the hundreds. And among those hundreds, LOTS audibly shift cards in their hands. The people who do it the least are new players, I've found, since they aren't as comfortable holding the cards in their hand to play around with them.
Phasing does not cause echo to trigger. You pay the echo before he phases out on T2 I believe, and then you don't pay it again.
EDIT - I'm wrong. You never pay the echo because of rules changes since it was printed. Weird.
The rules were never such that you paid the echo before Fogey phased out on turn 2 because Phasing occurs before you untap. And while I can't produce the relevant rulings I am almost 100% sure that Phasing never counted as a zone change -- if it did, then 'enter the battlefield' effects trigger every time a card phased in.
I'm pretty sure that you never had to pay Old Fogey's echo even though some rulings on him mistakenly said you did.
I never thought Banding was that confusing.
Banding is a VERY strong defensive ability. They should basically eliminate the offensive part of the ability because it is dumb, mostly superfluous, and quite weak.
As I understand it:
You do not form bands on defense. Instead, if a creature with banding double blocks (or triple etc) then you get to assign the combat damage how you want between all those creatures. Even if you quadruple blocked this would still hold, even if only one of the creatures had banding because you *don't form bands on defense*.
In Cube Old Fogey's banding is only relevant with Changelings or Clones which will pop up basically never.
I've played with Old Fogey a TON and I'm 99% sure its better than Fruitcake Elemental. I leave 1% of doubt because we could never figure out how to maximize Fruitcake Elemental. At any rate, both of them are wildly better if you have trample (Rancor/Berserk) and/or haste (if you play conspiracies).
Ghazbán Ogress! It's an Isamaru in your first game, and if you can win with your deck she'll stick around for you. Unfortunately she can rot in your sideboard when your draft has gone sour on you, but she can help the rich get richer.
I've played the Ogress. It is ok as long as you have enough structure in your games to know who has won the most. It needed to be 3/2 or better to be good though. Also, if you don't play sideboards you have to sub it out for a basic land.
So its like a split card. We call it:
Ogre/No-go-re
Though for black you might want to look at Enter the Dungeon
Enter the Dungeon is a good card but it will be a last pick fairly often just because it is pretty much exclusive to heavy black aggro in practice.
It depends; can you hear the cards moving in their hand? If so, that's 'audibly flicking' to me, and it's something that very few Magic players don't do.
@cuttups: The people in your group don't move the cards around in their hand? They hold them steady, and never re-arrange them audibly? I only use 'tournament player' because those are the places with the highest amount of Magic players; it's a numbers game, not a player-type thing. Going into people's houses wouldn't be very productive/safe to see if people are flicking cards, but going to GenCon or an SCG Open and the like give me sample sizes in the hundreds. And among those hundreds, LOTS audibly shift cards in their hands. The people who do it the least are new players, I've found, since they aren't as comfortable holding the cards in their hand to play around with them.
I'll add my own experiences here, I don't have any players who audibly flick their cards. Coincidentally I have no players who have played in any competitive tournament (I've started dragging a few to prereleases, and that is it). I think the flicking is more of an unconsciously learned behavior amongst tournament players then something that comes with experience or comfort with the game.
I agree with Zerg. My whole group is not competitive and when they first saw people flicking cards and moving them around in their hand they thought they were weirdos and didn't understand why you would ever do it.
I agree with Zerg. My whole group is not competitive and when they first saw people flicking cards and moving them around in their hand they thought they were weirdos and didn't understand why you would ever do it.
I've been doing this for a while now, and to be fair it is because I'm a weirdo lol
Stop That would be an easy mind twist against me. I'd rather not worry about how I'm playing and just be comfortable making the decisions I need to make suring a game.
Which makes the card even more disruptive than just discarding cards, right? Which makes it extremely powerful (because it is an INSTANT, too), and the 2nd black card in power terms from the Un- cards.
Nobody's mentioned my favorite, Uktabi Kong. I ran it in my cube before I dismantled it for EDH decks. I still use the kong in my bant exalted EDH deck. I don't even think it's overpowered, and I could see WOTC actually printing an 8/8 trampler that destroys all artifacts for 5GG now adays.
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Well sure, but we were talking about Zzzyxas's Abyss, which doesn't involve naming a card.
Creature tokens do have names and they're permanents, so they die from Zzzyxas's Abyss. It doesn't say destroy all nonland cards, either on the card or in the oracle.
Muzzio's Preparations works how skidgod explained. Illusion is a fine thing to name with Muz Prep if you're playing Meloku. I know this ruling because this came up for us when we added conspiracies and I had to check somewhere.
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Just can't decide on the 2nd black Un- card.
Infernal Spawn of Evil vs. Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil
While both are practically uncastable, could be good reanimation targets in a pinch in addition to their added ping.
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My two black cards will be Booster Tutor and Necro-Impotence for sure. I think the third best option is probably Evil Presents or Zzzyxas's Abyss.
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Yep, I think this exactly.
Also, none of our playgroup flicks their cards (seriously, no one I know), so it wouldn't be very effective over here.
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Also, I was talking about strict power and not so much 'fun'. For those who flick, they get punished enough to devote brainpower not to do it and have to devote brainpower to not doing it (which could result in an advantage). Some people find that max power = fun, so there it is
-AA
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Just like how cards performing different in one environment doesn't translate to cube, neither does card flicking!
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It does wreck walkers, artifacts, and enchantments and play well with the recurring dudes though almost all are early in the alphabet too (Bloodghast, Bloodied Champion...) but that is enough to keep your Abyss active.
Doesn't work with Ophiomancer, Curse of Shallow Graves, or Bitterblossom :(.
Is Necro-Impotence really better?
It's a very powerful effect that sits right in the sweet spot at 4 mana. I ran it as an alternative to Ravages of War because I have yet to acquire one (or proxy it), but it ended up being cut because the mana-cost is incredibly restrictive. If it were even 1WWW it would be more likely to stay for the same reasons that Cryptic Command is included, but it can only be realistically played in the heavy white aggro deck. In my cube, most of the decks are two colours or more unless someone gets really lucky, and it just wasn't worth the slot despite its power.
I think if I were running 540+ and in the market for some more Un-cards, it would come right back in. For my part, I found that even when it was drafted it was not main-decked enough because it was too hard to cast.
Having said all that, we never saw it with Unexpected Potential, but that would be pretty darn sweet.
I'd use the Abyss in a control deck.
Necro-Impotence is much better here, where we support storm.
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@cuttups: The people in your group don't move the cards around in their hand? They hold them steady, and never re-arrange them audibly? I only use 'tournament player' because those are the places with the highest amount of Magic players; it's a numbers game, not a player-type thing. Going into people's houses wouldn't be very productive/safe to see if people are flicking cards, but going to GenCon or an SCG Open and the like give me sample sizes in the hundreds. And among those hundreds, LOTS audibly shift cards in their hands. The people who do it the least are new players, I've found, since they aren't as comfortable holding the cards in their hand to play around with them.
Here's an extreme example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN-zYxwIimE
-AA
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The rules were never such that you paid the echo before Fogey phased out on turn 2 because Phasing occurs before you untap. And while I can't produce the relevant rulings I am almost 100% sure that Phasing never counted as a zone change -- if it did, then 'enter the battlefield' effects trigger every time a card phased in.
I'm pretty sure that you never had to pay Old Fogey's echo even though some rulings on him mistakenly said you did.
Banding is a VERY strong defensive ability. They should basically eliminate the offensive part of the ability because it is dumb, mostly superfluous, and quite weak.
As I understand it:
You do not form bands on defense. Instead, if a creature with banding double blocks (or triple etc) then you get to assign the combat damage how you want between all those creatures. Even if you quadruple blocked this would still hold, even if only one of the creatures had banding because you *don't form bands on defense*.
In Cube Old Fogey's banding is only relevant with Changelings or Clones which will pop up basically never.
I've played with Old Fogey a TON and I'm 99% sure its better than Fruitcake Elemental. I leave 1% of doubt because we could never figure out how to maximize Fruitcake Elemental. At any rate, both of them are wildly better if you have trample (Rancor/Berserk) and/or haste (if you play conspiracies).
You will want GG4 available when you cast it. At that point it will come down to a couple things:
1. can one player afford to take 7 from Fruitcake's ability?
2. is either player a threat to connect with Fruitcake (ie no opposing chump blockers)
I'm pretty sure its good if you can give it haste and trample (Berserk is pretty neat on it)
I've played the Ogress. It is ok as long as you have enough structure in your games to know who has won the most. It needed to be 3/2 or better to be good though. Also, if you don't play sideboards you have to sub it out for a basic land.
So its like a split card. We call it:
Ogre/No-go-re
Enter the Dungeon is a good card but it will be a last pick fairly often just because it is pretty much exclusive to heavy black aggro in practice.
I'll add my own experiences here, I don't have any players who audibly flick their cards. Coincidentally I have no players who have played in any competitive tournament (I've started dragging a few to prereleases, and that is it). I think the flicking is more of an unconsciously learned behavior amongst tournament players then something that comes with experience or comfort with the game.
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I've been doing this for a while now, and to be fair it is because I'm a weirdo lol
Stop That would be an easy mind twist against me. I'd rather not worry about how I'm playing and just be comfortable making the decisions I need to make suring a game.
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I confess... I'm a flicker
-AA
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