I think Uktabi Kong is actually underpowered. I wouldn't pay 8 mana for an 8/8 trampler with Creeping Corrosion. There's a lot of better cards out there.
Which makes the card even more disruptive than just discarding cards, right? Which makes it extremely powerful (because it is an INSTANT, too), and the 2nd black card in power terms from the Un- cards.
-AA
Its not better than Necro-Impotence (I'm not sure how many cards could be better than a Draw 20). The next best cards are probably Booster Tutor and Enter the Dungeon which are both ok-decent and possibly better in the right cube/citcumstances.
If you are interpreting "Un" cards loosely (and, if you think about it, being strict about it is counter to the entire idea) then Stop That is not better than Contract from Below either (as with Necro-I, I will add an obligatory "duh")
I actually think the card is terrible because I have no desire to spend time playing against people who flick their cards constantly.
I think Uktabi Kong is actually underpowered. I wouldn't pay 8 mana for an 8/8 trampler with Creeping Corrosion. There's a lot of better cards out there
Now that the Orangutan has faded into obsolescence (Reclamation Sage), that is one less monkey for his ability. The more monkeys the better Kong is (in terms of fun, anyway)
Also, there are only 11 8/8 or greater tramplers ever printed for less than 8 mana, and only two come without a drawback in Moldgraf Monstrosity and Terra Stomper. Most of them are either flatout terrible (Eater of Days, Jokulmorder), or gimmicks like Phyrexian Dreadnought. The overlap between 'terrible' and 'gimmick' is also close to 100%. Doomgape is casually playable.
EDIT: I take all of the above back. A poster above indicated that Kong is 7 mana, but on reflection I remembered that is 8 mana. At 8 mana you can do better, unless you are playing an Ape deck. (in which case you can still do better, but why would you want to?)
How is Necroimpotence a draw-20 when you only get to untap 10 (or less) permanents over the course of the game? Playing against Stasis is miserable, and really teaches you how important untapping permanents is; trying to win the game while under one of those would be miserable, and this could only possibly be good in combo-type decks (although likely VERY good in those decks, as one big turn is all you need). Have you actually played with the card?
Also, Enter the Dungeon can backfire and has no guaranteed positive effect, so I would discount that one for sure.
People that have played with Necro-Impotence have recommended it highly. I assume they're playing it in combo decks, since playing it in other decks doesn't really make a whole ton of sense. It could be okay in aggro, but is probably not the three drop you're looking for.
Enter the Dungeon can be great in an aggressive deck that can race the opponent down. Five life is not a lot of damage to deal. In the right deck, it's probably equal or slightly worse/better than Shahrazad, and that card is great in white aggro/weenie. I definitely wouldn't discount it.
Makes sense; I bet necro is awesome in your Cube. I still think Stop That would be good in all deck types, a lot of the time. So far what I've heard on Twitter is:
Yes: 18 replies, with comments like:
- plus half my group
- plus my whole group
- almost all my group
- lots of others
- all players who have played for 5+ years
- discarded half my deck in EDH vs Stop That
- other people do it like crazy
- mostly older players
No: 3 replies, with comments like:
- not many others do it
- most of my friends don't
- casual players don't
- 0 of my 8 person Cube group
I've found in the couple games I've played with Necro-impotence that missing untapping is so much worse than not drawing cards. I agree that this card probably needs to be in a combo deck, but I'm pretty hesitant in using such a silver bullet that you pretty much need to play and use on the turn you're going off.
I agree that this card probably needs to be in a combo deck, but I'm pretty hesitant in using such a silver bullet that you pretty much need to play and use on the turn you're going off.
That doesn't make any sense to me. If Ad Nauseam was playable in Cube wouldn't it precisely fit your description of needing to be played the turn you go off? Won't everyone agree such an effect was extremely strong? Well, thats exactly what N-I is, with a one turn delay.
You play N-I, then you pay 9.5 life at the end of opponent's turn. Next upkeep you pay at most three life to untap your lands (you could've used Dark Ritual or Black Lotus or whatever), draw for the turn, and now you've drawn 20 cards for 12.5 (round down to 12) life.
You could potentially pay around 15 life and draw every card in your deck, which would render N-I's drawback moot since you obviously have to win that turn. So the debate is never about the power level of N-I, its entirely about whether your Cube wants those kind of decks.
Got some play in with N-I. It's way, way better than Necropotence in the decks that want it.
I actually didn't even realize you could do it on the enemy's EOT, but that actually saved me a game because I didn't have to guess how much life I'd be at before passing the turn. The fact that you get all the cards to use on your winning turn is just icing on the cake.
I agree that this card probably needs to be in a combo deck, but I'm pretty hesitant in using such a silver bullet that you pretty much need to play and use on the turn you're going off.
That doesn't make any sense to me. If Ad Nauseam was playable in Cube wouldn't it precisely fit your description of needing to be played the turn you go off? Won't everyone agree such an effect was extremely strong? Well, thats exactly what N-I is, with a one turn delay.
You play N-I, then you pay 9.5 life at the end of opponent's turn. Next upkeep you pay at most three life to untap your lands (you could've used Dark Ritual or Black Lotus or whatever), draw for the turn, and now you've drawn 20 cards for 12.5 (round down to 12) life.
You could potentially pay around 15 life and draw every card in your deck, which would render N-I's drawback moot since you obviously have to win that turn. So the debate is never about the power level of N-I, its entirely about whether your Cube wants those kind of decks.
I never said it wasn't the best card to have when you're using it that turn, I said I am hesitant including a silver bullet that performs like that. It only fits in a small percentage of decks and is only ready to be deployed when you're ready to use it. A bit too narrow for my liking. For that reason I certainly wouldn't include Ad Nauseum as well. The effect is extremely strong, but extremely narrow, and not something I'm willing to use a spot in my black section for. If that or my previous post doesn't make sense to you, then it's probably a case of different strokes for different folks.
For what it's worth, Necropotence and Necro-Impotence are both significantly better than Ad Nauseum, particularly if you're cubing with Worldknit and Unexpected Potential.
Ad Naus just costs so much life to use. It's more mana too, and even though you can do it on the enemy EOT, a card that requires life payment for cards should be as cheap as possible so you can use it at a higher life total. Casting an Ad Nauseum at 20 will net you significantly more cards than casting it at 7 life, although this is obvious.
We play a lot of high-impact cards in storm. Time Spiral, Mirari's Wake, Past in Flames, etc. All these cards are great if you're paying 1 life for them via Necro or N-I, but very bad if you're paying life per mana cost with them.
N-I is better than Necro because you're able to discard cards and not have them get exiled if you want it in reanimator (usually you're playing Unexpected Potential with it here, but it's possible to cast it normally using Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Black Lotus, or just black lands, I suppose). Also very good if you don't want to discard at all, but do it on opponent's EOT and untap with a full grip. N-I is a beating with Cadaverous Bloom. But N-I's real home is storm, and although I have very limited testing experience with it, it seems better than Necropotence, especially if you're casting it the turn before you expect to go off (which should be doable if you're going to have 4+ mana on board and 10+ cards in hand).
Almost nobody that I know is flicking his cards. That habit constantly annoyed me when I witnessed it at larger tournaments or while watching event coverage videos. However, I caught myself flicking cards during a few tournaments. It seemed that when half the people around me do it and when I am under a lot of stress, I actually do it, too. It never happens during FNM matches or during a cube draft though. Stop That would be pretty useless in my cube group.
While Necro-Impotence is probably insane in a combo deck, it is worse than Necropotence in any fair deck. Having to pay 4-5 life every single turn is absolutely horrible. And I think that the classic Necro itself is already pretty mediocre in a typical cube.
I've only seen Necropotence played in fair decks a few times. It's really mediocre in a cube that doesn't support storm. I'd expect it to go last nearly every time.
I've only seen Necropotence played in fair decks a few times. It's really mediocre in a cube that doesn't support storm. I'd expect it to go last nearly every time.
It does. The issue ends up being that you can't really consistently win the turn/the turn after you drop it without comboing off some how. If you're not being pressured this is fine, but usually you'll reach a point in the game where you can't afford to draw more cards and you can't win with what you have, meaning necropotence just killed you.
I want my 576 powered cube represent the full history of Magic, and as part of that I try to include at least one card from every set. I hadn't checked on that in a while and noticed a couple of nights ago that I don't have anything from Unglued. After reading this discussion, it looks like Once More with Feeling would be the best candidate.
But as I was looking through the set, I spotted Denied! Has anyone tried this card out? It seems to me like the unreliability of the spell is offset by two things: It can be a hard counter for U, and it has a near-Gitaxian Probe stapled to it. To me this suggests blowout shenanigans around stuff like bounce. A Thoughtseize turn one means you only have to leave one mana up for the next several turns. And there are many situations in cube — Oracle of Mul Daya, Gush, Survival of the Fittest, Mystical Tutor... — where you know at least one card in your opponent's hand.
Heck, you could even cast Denied! on a guess, let it resolve, and if it fails you can make a much more informed decision about following it up with another counter. I think the extra information probably offsets the unreliability, and that the unreliability isn't as bad as it first seems, but I'd like to hear what you think.
On its face, there's two things that jump out at me - first, it seems to me that our singleton nature hurts the chances of getting a hit on the card named, even with slightly better odds than a Cabal Therapy (being able to name basic lands is alright).
Second, I can't agree with even "near-Gitaxian Probe" quality. Probe's power comes from being free, replacing itself, and being castable anytime - none of which apply to Denied!. Information is good, but not at the cost of a card in your deck. I think that's why most cubers gravitate towards stuff like Probe or Lifebane Zombie that come with a little something guaranteed
To be fair, if this was Legacy and Denied! was printed in a legal set I think it would be an awesome game-changer.
There are many more silver-bordered cards I don't include for power-level reasons; notably lots of cards from Unglued, and Magical Hacker. I would include those in a powered cube, but I run unpowered and they're a bit too much to handle there.
Chaos Orb is great if you play it as a colorless Vindicate. I don't know if its good enough if you play it as intended, but it'd be fun none-the-less.
I've never been a fan of Un-card shenanigans, especially when they feel silly. However, with the release of Unstable, I did decide to include a few in my Conspiracy module.
We've really enjoyed Sword of Dungeons & Dragons. The protections are mostly irrelevant, though it does swing past a True-Name Nemesis which has come up at least once so far. I also like that the D20 roll creates a fun little sub-game of 'will he or won't he' that ends up with some cool cube stories.
We also added Summon the Pack which has a similar fun cube story value. This past weekend was our first time seeing it in action and it was hilarious every time it was cast. I want to say it happened three times and the packs ranged anywhere from a few durdles to Woodfall Primus in value.
Currently these are our only two silver bordered cards, but I do have plans to add in Booster Tutor once I get a copy. These types of Un cards that aren't powered by dexterity or changing card text or looking at irrelevant things like foils or set symbols are the ones that I can really enjoy.
I used to run contract From Below along with a lot of different un cards. there is something to be said about watching magical hacker and Planeswalkers the only reason I even stopped using them was because I wanted to keep a constant update going and was kind of hard to do with those cards cuz not many people ran them
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CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Its not better than Necro-Impotence (I'm not sure how many cards could be better than a Draw 20). The next best cards are probably Booster Tutor and Enter the Dungeon which are both ok-decent and possibly better in the right cube/citcumstances.
If you are interpreting "Un" cards loosely (and, if you think about it, being strict about it is counter to the entire idea) then Stop That is not better than Contract from Below either (as with Necro-I, I will add an obligatory "duh")
I actually think the card is terrible because I have no desire to spend time playing against people who flick their cards constantly.
Now that the Orangutan has faded into obsolescence (Reclamation Sage), that is one less monkey for his ability. The more monkeys the better Kong is (in terms of fun, anyway)
Also, there are only 11 8/8 or greater tramplers ever printed for less than 8 mana, and only two come without a drawback in Moldgraf Monstrosity and Terra Stomper. Most of them are either flatout terrible (Eater of Days, Jokulmorder), or gimmicks like Phyrexian Dreadnought. The overlap between 'terrible' and 'gimmick' is also close to 100%. Doomgape is casually playable.
EDIT: I take all of the above back. A poster above indicated that Kong is 7 mana, but on reflection I remembered that is 8 mana. At 8 mana you can do better, unless you are playing an Ape deck. (in which case you can still do better, but why would you want to?)
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Also, Enter the Dungeon can backfire and has no guaranteed positive effect, so I would discount that one for sure.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Enter the Dungeon can be great in an aggressive deck that can race the opponent down. Five life is not a lot of damage to deal. In the right deck, it's probably equal or slightly worse/better than Shahrazad, and that card is great in white aggro/weenie. I definitely wouldn't discount it.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Yes: 18 replies, with comments like:
- plus half my group
- plus my whole group
- almost all my group
- lots of others
- all players who have played for 5+ years
- discarded half my deck in EDH vs Stop That
- other people do it like crazy
- mostly older players
No: 3 replies, with comments like:
- not many others do it
- most of my friends don't
- casual players don't
- 0 of my 8 person Cube group
Interesting!
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
That doesn't make any sense to me. If Ad Nauseam was playable in Cube wouldn't it precisely fit your description of needing to be played the turn you go off? Won't everyone agree such an effect was extremely strong? Well, thats exactly what N-I is, with a one turn delay.
You play N-I, then you pay 9.5 life at the end of opponent's turn. Next upkeep you pay at most three life to untap your lands (you could've used Dark Ritual or Black Lotus or whatever), draw for the turn, and now you've drawn 20 cards for 12.5 (round down to 12) life.
You could potentially pay around 15 life and draw every card in your deck, which would render N-I's drawback moot since you obviously have to win that turn. So the debate is never about the power level of N-I, its entirely about whether your Cube wants those kind of decks.
I actually didn't even realize you could do it on the enemy's EOT, but that actually saved me a game because I didn't have to guess how much life I'd be at before passing the turn. The fact that you get all the cards to use on your winning turn is just icing on the cake.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
I never said it wasn't the best card to have when you're using it that turn, I said I am hesitant including a silver bullet that performs like that. It only fits in a small percentage of decks and is only ready to be deployed when you're ready to use it. A bit too narrow for my liking. For that reason I certainly wouldn't include Ad Nauseum as well. The effect is extremely strong, but extremely narrow, and not something I'm willing to use a spot in my black section for. If that or my previous post doesn't make sense to you, then it's probably a case of different strokes for different folks.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Ad Naus just costs so much life to use. It's more mana too, and even though you can do it on the enemy EOT, a card that requires life payment for cards should be as cheap as possible so you can use it at a higher life total. Casting an Ad Nauseum at 20 will net you significantly more cards than casting it at 7 life, although this is obvious.
We play a lot of high-impact cards in storm. Time Spiral, Mirari's Wake, Past in Flames, etc. All these cards are great if you're paying 1 life for them via Necro or N-I, but very bad if you're paying life per mana cost with them.
N-I is better than Necro because you're able to discard cards and not have them get exiled if you want it in reanimator (usually you're playing Unexpected Potential with it here, but it's possible to cast it normally using Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Black Lotus, or just black lands, I suppose). Also very good if you don't want to discard at all, but do it on opponent's EOT and untap with a full grip. N-I is a beating with Cadaverous Bloom. But N-I's real home is storm, and although I have very limited testing experience with it, it seems better than Necropotence, especially if you're casting it the turn before you expect to go off (which should be doable if you're going to have 4+ mana on board and 10+ cards in hand).
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
While Necro-Impotence is probably insane in a combo deck, it is worse than Necropotence in any fair deck. Having to pay 4-5 life every single turn is absolutely horrible. And I think that the classic Necro itself is already pretty mediocre in a typical cube.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
It does. The issue ends up being that you can't really consistently win the turn/the turn after you drop it without comboing off some how. If you're not being pressured this is fine, but usually you'll reach a point in the game where you can't afford to draw more cards and you can't win with what you have, meaning necropotence just killed you.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
But as I was looking through the set, I spotted Denied! Has anyone tried this card out? It seems to me like the unreliability of the spell is offset by two things: It can be a hard counter for U, and it has a near-Gitaxian Probe stapled to it. To me this suggests blowout shenanigans around stuff like bounce. A Thoughtseize turn one means you only have to leave one mana up for the next several turns. And there are many situations in cube — Oracle of Mul Daya, Gush, Survival of the Fittest, Mystical Tutor... — where you know at least one card in your opponent's hand.
Heck, you could even cast Denied! on a guess, let it resolve, and if it fails you can make a much more informed decision about following it up with another counter. I think the extra information probably offsets the unreliability, and that the unreliability isn't as bad as it first seems, but I'd like to hear what you think.
Second, I can't agree with even "near-Gitaxian Probe" quality. Probe's power comes from being free, replacing itself, and being castable anytime - none of which apply to Denied!. Information is good, but not at the cost of a card in your deck. I think that's why most cubers gravitate towards stuff like Probe or Lifebane Zombie that come with a little something guaranteed
To be fair, if this was Legacy and Denied! was printed in a legal set I think it would be an awesome game-changer.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
1 Clocknapper
1 Blast from the Past
1 Ineffable Blessing
1 The Grand Calcutron
1 Who/What/When/Where/Why
1 City of Ass
There are many more silver-bordered cards I don't include for power-level reasons; notably lots of cards from Unglued, and Magical Hacker. I would include those in a powered cube, but I run unpowered and they're a bit too much to handle there.
Chaos Orb is great if you play it as a colorless Vindicate. I don't know if its good enough if you play it as intended, but it'd be fun none-the-less.
[180 classic cube]
We've really enjoyed Sword of Dungeons & Dragons. The protections are mostly irrelevant, though it does swing past a True-Name Nemesis which has come up at least once so far. I also like that the D20 roll creates a fun little sub-game of 'will he or won't he' that ends up with some cool cube stories.
We also added Summon the Pack which has a similar fun cube story value. This past weekend was our first time seeing it in action and it was hilarious every time it was cast. I want to say it happened three times and the packs ranged anywhere from a few durdles to Woodfall Primus in value.
Currently these are our only two silver bordered cards, but I do have plans to add in Booster Tutor once I get a copy. These types of Un cards that aren't powered by dexterity or changing card text or looking at irrelevant things like foils or set symbols are the ones that I can really enjoy.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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