I've considered land tax for a while, but I've removed most of the synergistic cards that go with it. Would it still be worth it to add the tax without cards like scroll rack, bounce lands, loam, crucible, mox pearl or diamond?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The GameCube, a 500 cube with a medium power level and a focus on fun and fringe playables rather than immediately shutting your opponent down with the best cards ever printed.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
I've considered land tax for a while, but I've removed most of the synergistic cards that go with it. Would it still be worth it to add the tax without cards like scroll rack, bounce lands, loam, crucible, mox pearl or diamond?
In a 500 cube of medium power level? sure.
High powered level 360-400? I think no.
Ive recently added it back in for synergy with a lands.dec thing Im trying out, but I cut it earlier and no one in my play group really cared.
In a slower environment I think It's upside is more than worth the times it's a dead topdeck or does nothing.
In a faster environment and minimal synergies with it, I don't think its good enough. If the game is ending on turn 4-7, there will be many times that you cannot realize the thinner deck or the extra lands that you have in your hand.
Cards are powerful enough now that the opportunity cost of not having an answer/threat, or something that translates into an answer/threat can cost you the game. You can easily draw 6 lands and then die, MUCH more so than 3 years ago.
I'm not saying drawing 6 lands for 1 mana and a card over two turns, isn't completly insane.. Im saying it's not anywhere close as good as it once was, and it's very contingent on the power level of the environemnt, as well as what you can do with those lands.
When you compare the reduced upside to all the times it does diddly squat, I do not think it is worthy of a slot in tight powered cubes list these days.
This power creep is part of why it went from being banned in legacy -> unbanned and unplayable in legacy heh.
I've considered land tax for a while, but I've removed most of the synergistic cards that go with it. Would it still be worth it to add the tax without cards like scroll rack, bounce lands, loam, crucible, mox pearl or diamond?
Yes. If players have access to free Plains during deck construction, the cube should contain Land Tax. Even at 180. It's easily one of the best white cards in the cube.
Also, you don't really need synergistic cards to support land tax since "having less lands than your opponent" comes up all the time. It is really easy to trigger this at least once per game.
I've considered land tax for a while, but I've removed most of the synergistic cards that go with it. Would it still be worth it to add the tax without cards like scroll rack, bounce lands, loam, crucible, mox pearl or diamond?
Yes. If players have access to free Plains during deck construction, the cube should contain Land Tax. Even at 180. It's easily one of the best white cards in the cube.
Yep, it requires no additional synergy whatsoever. Sorting out all your mana and fixing requirements for one mana while thinning your deck and providing discard chaff if you need it... one of my favourite white cards.
When Land Tax is in play...
...your opponent thinks: I should stop playing lands to prevent the enemy from getting insane card advantage. Fun, fun, fun! (NOT)
...you think: I should stop playing lands to gain insane card advantage. Fun, fun, fun! (NOT)
Let's recount the problems with this card:
- If it works, the card can give you absoluletely insane amounts of card advantage for only a single mana, making it one of the most broken CA effects.
- If it doesn't work (say, you drew it at the wrong time), it does nothing, making it one of the cards with the highest WCS/BCS variance in the whole game.
- While in play, it entices both players to stop progressing the game state.
Three strikes, you're out! Total garbage design. There is a reason why Wizards hasn't printed stuff like this in two decades.
One shot versions of this effect are much, much better, because they (A) cap the ceiling of the effect (while also reducing the overall amount of shuffling), (B) are easier to time (and to surprise your opponent with) and (C) don't continue to keep both players from playing lands. Tithe, Gift of Estates and Knight of the White Orchid are fine desings for those reasons. It is just unfortunate that they are all a little bit too weak for traditional cubes. Weathered Wayfarer, while repeatable, is also not that bad, because it is much easier to kill than an early enchantment and doesn't give you that much CA that quickly. (Oath of Lieges on the other hand is just a terrible, terrible version of Land Tax.)
Let's recount the awesomeness of this card:
- When it does work, you draw somewhere between 3-9 cards for W, thinning your deck constantly and dramatically improving your topdecks.
- It creates interesting gamestates where both players are forced to make tough choices. Land drops are no longer automatic decisions for either player.
- It interacts with several cards in the cube that you can use to increase its value and decrease its variance.
Three strikes, you're IN! Completely amazing design. It's a shame they haven't designed more cards like this in the last two decades.
There you go again with your little debate trick of mirroring/inverting someone else's post. You have to realize though that unless your reply is factually correct, it is nothing but smoke and mirrors.
You could have just listed three reasons why you like the card, but no, you just had to insinuate that my statement about the card's design problems is wrong. And that brings the validity of your reply crumbling down because Land Tax is far from a "completely amazing design". It has some glaring problems, not the least of which is that it is completely unbalanced. If you can describe a card by saying that it can "draw [...] 9 cards for W", then the conclusion should be "mistake" or "broken" and not "amazing design".
To keep discussions like this from repeating themselves, I am afraid that I really need to spell it out for you:
- A card being powerful is not the same as the card being a good design.
- You liking a card is not the same thing as the card being a good design.*
* And I just know that you are itching to use that debate trick again by inverting this sentence into "You disliking a card is not the same thing as the card being a bad design.", but such a reply would be completely meaningless, because I already pointed out some strong factual design problems.
I'm not convinced that the variance of the card is a huge strike against it.... But I do agree that "While in play, it entices both players to stop progressing the game state." is a very valid criticism regarding FUN, and thus good design. From what I've read from blogs/videos, this concept would go against aaron forsythes principles of good design.
I personally enjoy land tax's mini game as a card. I find it an interesting puzzle of can I stall? can I not stall? When do I just go for it and say FINE draw the cards. It's a mini game that both players get to participate in.
In my experiences it's pretty rare that it leads to a standoff where no one does anything for 5 minutes.
I already pointed out some strong factual design problems.
No, you pointed out things that you personally dislike about the card's design. You consider them design problems. Personally. Nothing that you've submitted is factual at all. It's all your subjective opinion on the card. Just like my opinion is! Because opinions are subjective.
You listed the insane card advantage as a flaw. I consider it a good thing. You listed the variance between the WCS and the BCS as a flaw. I consider it an important part of balancing the design. You consider the sub game of manipulating resources a design flaw. I consider it an interesting series of interactions that shows up because Tax is on the board.
So you see, it's all a matter of opinion and preference. It's not that you listed a bunch of facts and that everyone else is wrong. You shared your opinion on Land Tax, and I shared mine. And neither statement is more "factual" than the other.
Quote from Star Slayer »
If you can describe a card by saying that it can "draw [...] 9 cards for W", then the conclusion should be "mistake" or "broken" and not "amazing design".
This isn't true either. The card is balanced by its variance. There are some folks that don't even play it because they don't think it's good enough. It's not a mistake, or broken. It's simply balanced by its variance. Something you consider a "design flaw" which I consider to be well executed design. How can you create a card that draws between 3-9 cards sometimes for W without it being universally considered as the most broken card ever? By designing it in such a way that brings the overall effect into balance. I consider that to be pretty well designed.
Quote from Star Slayer »
"You disliking a card is not the same thing as the card being a bad design.", but such a reply would be completely meaningless
It's not completely meaningless. You personally disliking a card does not mean that the design is bad, and all of your complaints about the card are simply personal distaste for that kind of effect. It's not bad design just because you think it is. The design on this card is great. But again, that's just my opinion. Just as your stance of the design being bad is just your opinion, and nothing more.
Quote from Star Slayer »
You have to realize though that unless your reply is factually correct, it is nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Every single thing in my reply was just as "factually correct" as everything in your original statement. It's all personal opinion.
I liked the way you illustrated your thoughts on the card. I thought I'd outline my thoughts on the card the same way. Your three "strikes" are things I consider to be great reasons to include the card. It was a way to illustrate how difference of opinion can change card evaluation. Variance ≠ bad design. Variance can be an important way to balance strong and unique effects.
I think the card is awesome, but I also think the card can be playgroup-dependant and I've noticed that it does end up as a last pick\ sideboard card in a few of my drafts. I've also noticed how a lot of cubes I see these days don't run the true support cards for it anymore. This makes the deck for a lot of players in a lot of playgroups very hard to see, and esspecialy if you have a more casual playgroup that doesn't know every interaction between cards in your cube then it's very unlikely to see play.
I've made this point before, but I think it's important to keep your own playgroup in mind not only when it comes to things like pet-cards or what archtypes you support, but also be honost about their "skill" (by lack of a better word). For example, It's not hard for me to say that atleast 50% of the people I invite to cube with don't understand how to draft a Storm-deck, so I minimized the support for the deck quite a bit, or changed it to more generally played cards like Gitaxian Probe . This way the player that is a regular in my cube-group and loves storm (to an unhealthy degree) can still draft the deck, while the newer players (or the people who only play EDH or only standard\ modern, for example) can still get enough cards for the deck they randomly stumbled into by just following color signals.
And as much as I love Land Tax it has been on my radar aswell for going last pick not showing up in decks. If this is the case for you aswell then there is also the fact to consider that are also only so many "fun\ utility\ archtype-forming\ support-ish"-cards you can put in each color before the cube tries to do to many things, so I can't really fault anyone if they decide to cut it.
My group had a similar issue with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire for a long time. I would always get ppl complaining and asking why I was wasting cube space on this or that card when I could be playing something awesome like Sword of Vengeance (no joke, lol). I made it my mission to beat everyone with prison type decks until they stopped whining
I was curious how people treated this card in relation to manabases and color requirements. When deckbuilding with Land Tax and trying to calculate the color requirements to cast your spells, how much is Land Tax worth?
I was curious how people treated this card in relation to manabases and color requirements. When deckbuilding with Land Tax and trying to calculate the color requirements to cast your spells, how much is Land Tax worth?
A single white mana, just like every other 1-cmc white spell.
I was curious how people treated this card in relation to manabases and color requirements. When deckbuilding with Land Tax and trying to calculate the color requirements to cast your spells, how much is Land Tax worth?
A single white mana, just like every other 1-cmc white spell.
To expand on this: land tax is at its best early in the game, so you need to make sure every time land tax is in you opener that you can play it if you have a sufficient amount of lands. I wouldn't splash it for that reason, and I imagine that's more what B8R meant.
There's an article wtwlf wrote that touches on how many Mana sources of a color you need to rely on having X amount of them by Y turn, I forget what it's called but you could prob find it in the articles section (or just ask him)
I was curious how people treated this card in relation to manabases and color requirements. When deckbuilding with Land Tax and trying to calculate the color requirements to cast your spells, how much is Land Tax worth?
A single white mana, just like every other 1-cmc white spell.
No Steve, man, I'm asking how much colored mana you think it is WORTH, not how much colored mana it COSTS.
I was curious how people treated this card in relation to manabases and color requirements. When deckbuilding with Land Tax and trying to calculate the color requirements to cast your spells, how much is Land Tax worth?
A single white mana, just like every other 1-cmc white spell.
To expand on this: land tax is at its best early in the game, so you need to make sure every time land tax is in you opener that you can play it if you have a sufficient amount of lands. I wouldn't splash it for that reason, and I imagine that's more what B8R meant.
I've splashed for Land Tax many times. My minimum for a splash is usually 4 sources of whatever color, but for Land Tax I'll make sure I'm at least 5-6.
I was curious how people treated this card in relation to manabases and color requirements. When deckbuilding with Land Tax and trying to calculate the color requirements to cast your spells, how much is Land Tax worth?
A single white mana, just like every other 1-cmc white spell.
To expand on this: land tax is at its best early in the game, so you need to make sure every time land tax is in you opener that you can play it if you have a sufficient amount of lands. I wouldn't splash it for that reason, and I imagine that's more what B8R meant.
I've splashed for Land Tax many times. My minimum for a splash is usually 4 sources of whatever color, but for Land Tax I'll make sure I'm at least 5-6.
That seems kinda risky to me, especially since it's a card that sometimes bites you in the butt when you splash for it, I would prob want more to ensure I'm always opening and getting a W by like turns 3-4 at the absolute latest.
Somehow this conversation got derailed and we are talking about splashing Land Tax. That's not what I'm after at all. Obviously when the card triggers, the lands you get from it can help you cast your CC spells. So how much is that worth to you when building a manabase?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My 540 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 45th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from ONE!
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
In a 500 cube of medium power level? sure.
High powered level 360-400? I think no.
Ive recently added it back in for synergy with a lands.dec thing Im trying out, but I cut it earlier and no one in my play group really cared.
In a slower environment I think It's upside is more than worth the times it's a dead topdeck or does nothing.
In a faster environment and minimal synergies with it, I don't think its good enough. If the game is ending on turn 4-7, there will be many times that you cannot realize the thinner deck or the extra lands that you have in your hand.
Cards are powerful enough now that the opportunity cost of not having an answer/threat, or something that translates into an answer/threat can cost you the game. You can easily draw 6 lands and then die, MUCH more so than 3 years ago.
I'm not saying drawing 6 lands for 1 mana and a card over two turns, isn't completly insane.. Im saying it's not anywhere close as good as it once was, and it's very contingent on the power level of the environemnt, as well as what you can do with those lands.
When you compare the reduced upside to all the times it does diddly squat, I do not think it is worthy of a slot in tight powered cubes list these days.
This power creep is part of why it went from being banned in legacy -> unbanned and unplayable in legacy heh.
Last Updated 02/06/23
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Yes. If players have access to free Plains during deck construction, the cube should contain Land Tax. Even at 180. It's easily one of the best white cards in the cube.
My 540 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 45th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from ONE!
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
Yep, it requires no additional synergy whatsoever. Sorting out all your mana and fixing requirements for one mana while thinning your deck and providing discard chaff if you need it... one of my favourite white cards.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
...your opponent thinks: I should stop playing lands to prevent the enemy from getting insane card advantage. Fun, fun, fun! (NOT)
...you think: I should stop playing lands to gain insane card advantage. Fun, fun, fun! (NOT)
Let's recount the problems with this card:
- If it works, the card can give you absoluletely insane amounts of card advantage for only a single mana, making it one of the most broken CA effects.
- If it doesn't work (say, you drew it at the wrong time), it does nothing, making it one of the cards with the highest WCS/BCS variance in the whole game.
- While in play, it entices both players to stop progressing the game state.
Three strikes, you're out! Total garbage design. There is a reason why Wizards hasn't printed stuff like this in two decades.
One shot versions of this effect are much, much better, because they (A) cap the ceiling of the effect (while also reducing the overall amount of shuffling), (B) are easier to time (and to surprise your opponent with) and (C) don't continue to keep both players from playing lands. Tithe, Gift of Estates and Knight of the White Orchid are fine desings for those reasons. It is just unfortunate that they are all a little bit too weak for traditional cubes. Weathered Wayfarer, while repeatable, is also not that bad, because it is much easier to kill than an early enchantment and doesn't give you that much CA that quickly. (Oath of Lieges on the other hand is just a terrible, terrible version of Land Tax.)
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
- When it does work, you draw somewhere between 3-9 cards for W, thinning your deck constantly and dramatically improving your topdecks.
- It creates interesting gamestates where both players are forced to make tough choices. Land drops are no longer automatic decisions for either player.
- It interacts with several cards in the cube that you can use to increase its value and decrease its variance.
Three strikes, you're IN! Completely amazing design. It's a shame they haven't designed more cards like this in the last two decades.
My 540 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 45th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from ONE!
You could have just listed three reasons why you like the card, but no, you just had to insinuate that my statement about the card's design problems is wrong. And that brings the validity of your reply crumbling down because Land Tax is far from a "completely amazing design". It has some glaring problems, not the least of which is that it is completely unbalanced. If you can describe a card by saying that it can "draw [...] 9 cards for W", then the conclusion should be "mistake" or "broken" and not "amazing design".
To keep discussions like this from repeating themselves, I am afraid that I really need to spell it out for you:
- A card being powerful is not the same as the card being a good design.
- You liking a card is not the same thing as the card being a good design.*
* And I just know that you are itching to use that debate trick again by inverting this sentence into "You disliking a card is not the same thing as the card being a bad design.", but such a reply would be completely meaningless, because I already pointed out some strong factual design problems.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I personally enjoy land tax's mini game as a card. I find it an interesting puzzle of can I stall? can I not stall? When do I just go for it and say FINE draw the cards. It's a mini game that both players get to participate in.
In my experiences it's pretty rare that it leads to a standoff where no one does anything for 5 minutes.
Last Updated 02/06/23
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
No, you pointed out things that you personally dislike about the card's design. You consider them design problems. Personally. Nothing that you've submitted is factual at all. It's all your subjective opinion on the card. Just like my opinion is! Because opinions are subjective.
You listed the insane card advantage as a flaw. I consider it a good thing. You listed the variance between the WCS and the BCS as a flaw. I consider it an important part of balancing the design. You consider the sub game of manipulating resources a design flaw. I consider it an interesting series of interactions that shows up because Tax is on the board.
So you see, it's all a matter of opinion and preference. It's not that you listed a bunch of facts and that everyone else is wrong. You shared your opinion on Land Tax, and I shared mine. And neither statement is more "factual" than the other.
This isn't true either. The card is balanced by its variance. There are some folks that don't even play it because they don't think it's good enough. It's not a mistake, or broken. It's simply balanced by its variance. Something you consider a "design flaw" which I consider to be well executed design. How can you create a card that draws between 3-9 cards sometimes for W without it being universally considered as the most broken card ever? By designing it in such a way that brings the overall effect into balance. I consider that to be pretty well designed.
It's not completely meaningless. You personally disliking a card does not mean that the design is bad, and all of your complaints about the card are simply personal distaste for that kind of effect. It's not bad design just because you think it is. The design on this card is great. But again, that's just my opinion. Just as your stance of the design being bad is just your opinion, and nothing more.
Every single thing in my reply was just as "factually correct" as everything in your original statement. It's all personal opinion.
I liked the way you illustrated your thoughts on the card. I thought I'd outline my thoughts on the card the same way. Your three "strikes" are things I consider to be great reasons to include the card. It was a way to illustrate how difference of opinion can change card evaluation. Variance ≠ bad design. Variance can be an important way to balance strong and unique effects.
My 540 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 45th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from ONE!
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
My group had a similar issue with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire for a long time. I would always get ppl complaining and asking why I was wasting cube space on this or that card when I could be playing something awesome like Sword of Vengeance (no joke, lol). I made it my mission to beat everyone with prison type decks until they stopped whining
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffA single white mana, just like every other 1-cmc white spell.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
To expand on this: land tax is at its best early in the game, so you need to make sure every time land tax is in you opener that you can play it if you have a sufficient amount of lands. I wouldn't splash it for that reason, and I imagine that's more what B8R meant.
There's an article wtwlf wrote that touches on how many Mana sources of a color you need to rely on having X amount of them by Y turn, I forget what it's called but you could prob find it in the articles section (or just ask him)
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
No Steve, man, I'm asking how much colored mana you think it is WORTH, not how much colored mana it COSTS.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffI've splashed for Land Tax many times. My minimum for a splash is usually 4 sources of whatever color, but for Land Tax I'll make sure I'm at least 5-6.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
That seems kinda risky to me, especially since it's a card that sometimes bites you in the butt when you splash for it, I would prob want more to ensure I'm always opening and getting a W by like turns 3-4 at the absolute latest.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
This is a pretty eye opening article regarding what's required for consistency.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Thanks Salmo, yes, I've read and studied that article many times. Also a similar one by Frank Karsten on CFB has been really valuable for me.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
Somehow this conversation got derailed and we are talking about splashing Land Tax. That's not what I'm after at all. Obviously when the card triggers, the lands you get from it can help you cast your CC spells. So how much is that worth to you when building a manabase?