You don't need (and shouldn't) pick it P1P1. You take it when there's nothing better to trade it for a double pick on P2P1 or P3P1.
Going with statistics, if Cogwork Librarian trades on P2P1 or P3P1 for a second card it's worth as much as the top 13% of your cube (you take the best 2 cards out of 15). Select all the top picks of your cube until you have 13%. On average, this card will trade for one of those. In my 360 powered cube, it will on average trade up with one of the top 48 cards. If you are unlucky and don't have a good second pick on P2P1 you can wait for the next pick or until P3P1.
If the WCS happens and the card is only in the 3rd pack, it's still very good. At that point in the draft you should know what deck you're aiming for. You can safely pick it high instead of hate drafting and double dip in a pack that as the needed cards for your deck.
As long as your always drafting, I don't see how this couldn't be a auto-include, unless you don't want to play the effect.
I find this card very interesting. I have a 720 cards cube, so the only way we use the whole thing is if we booster draft it. I think it can be counted as a regular artifact in the cube and if we don't play booster draft we will just leave it in the undrafted cards pile.
This card messes with the structure of the draft itself, and that just doesn't appeal to me. It seems too meta--sort of like an Un-card. I won't be cubing this, and I hope the set isn't full of cards like it.
Colorless hill giants win games? Yo, where all my Dodecapods at???
I must be the only guy who has been able to attack with all the various 3/3s that can turn up in the cube and win games? I know it isn't normal limited but a decent body can do a lot of work.
I must be the only guy who has been able to attack with all the various 3/3s that can turn up in the cube and win games? I know it isn't normal limited but a decent body can do a lot of work.
You seem to be suggesting you'd maindeck a vanilla 3/3 for 4 in a cube draft, but I must be misunderstanding you. What point are you making exactly?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I just feels like this product is probably aimed at cube the same way Commander decks are for commander. I hope for some awesome card the same way, though.
You seem to be suggesting you'd maindeck a vanilla 3/3 for 4 in a cube draft, but I must be misunderstanding you. What point are you making exactly?
It wouldn't be my first choice but if I had some things that played with artifacts and or a lack of playables (because someone swapped this in for a second good card from a pack or something) I would not be against playing a colorless hill giant. I know cube is full of bomb cards doing nasty stuff but sometimes things don't go as you want them to go and you need a 3/3.
This card messes with the structure of the draft itself, and that just doesn't appeal to me. It seems too meta--sort of like an Un-card. I won't be cubing this, and I hope the set isn't full of cards like it.
This is exactly how I feel about the card. I just don't like something that changes how I draft the Cube. I think Cube should mirror a real draft experience as closely as possible and this feels like an uncard.
Power level I think it's solid but it's really only going to matter packs 1 or 2, if it doesn't show up until pack 3 then it's a total blank because at that point you're probably better just making a pick that'll make your 23.
Definitely not something I want to do on a regular basis but I think it could be interesting to try out once and see how it goes. Then if it's fun toss it in every now and then but not something I could draft every week.
This card messes with the structure of the draft itself, and that just doesn't appeal to me. It seems too meta--sort of like an Un-card. I won't be cubing this, and I hope the set isn't full of cards like it.
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Agreed. This card has a similar feel to something like Booster Tutor, and I don't like cards that play like that.
It's quite possible that this willl be the only card that references the draft itself, similar to how the one Planechase mana rock was the only Magic card that referenced the planar cards.
I doubt it will be the only card. Wizards have leaked two cards: one that relates to multiplayer, one that alters drafting. This suggests that these will be significant themes in the set. Sure there was only one Magc card referring to the planar cards, but there were also a bunch of planar cards that made it pretty obvious what the set's theme was.
When there's no ideal card for you in a pack, getting two picks from a pack with multiple broken cards that you want later on is really, really good.
If I exclusively drafted, I'd probably find room for it. But I don't like cards that I'd have to hunt for to add/remove for one exclusive type of play. I want all my inclusions to be valuable regardless of what format we're cubing at the time (sealed, winston, etc).
I agree that this is a good card to support drafting specific deck archetypes.
You wouldn't have to sort your cube every time. Simply mark these cards and if someone sees one in Winston or Sealed they reveal it and pick another card from the undrafted portion of cube. It's what I did with my my multiplayer only cards and it worked fine.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
It would never, ever make a final 40 unless something went horribly wrong. And even in that case, I'd splash a completely off-color card instead of playing a Hill Giant in my cube deck. Come on people, this is a draft-impact exclusive card. Nobody would ever actually play this in a cube deck ...right?
I think it is important to take into account the fact that you put this back into the pack after using it, hence letting other people revel in the two-picking greatness as well. So this card will most likely get drafted multiple times in just a single draft. I think that adds a lot of the value to it from a cube designer's perspective. Usually, you want the people drafting your cube to have fun, and this will allow multiple people in multiple instances to take advantage of an effect that is really satisfying. It will perpetually be a relatively high pick, and after doing its job, it will always eventually end up being a 15th pick at the end of pack 3.
If you don't booster draft your cube, then obviously this guy is not for you. But I certainly think this is a strong and fun inclusion that warrants testing to see how your playgroup responds to such an effect. It will always get drafted relatively high since its power is based on the other cards in your cube.
Also, arguing about whether this would see play in your final 40 is ridiculous; the person who gets stuck with this card will have it on P3P15; how often does P3P15 make it into your final 40?
I think the real question is will this ever work on Cubetutor? haha
In all seriousness, I think I'd run it for a bit at least, as I have been wanting to support a lot of archetypes that can get kinda hard to draft and this card seems like it would help that a lot.
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Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
It only feels like an un-card because it's never been done before. If Conspiracy is successful at all, it'll be something that players become pretty used to and won't seem strange. Alpha included meta-cards like Contract from Below and Demonic Attorney, so they've been with the game since its inception.
You're welcome to not like Cogwork Librarian as a matter of taste, but it isn't really that strange in the grand scheme of things.
It would never, ever make a final 40 unless something went horribly wrong. And even in that case, I'd splash a completely off-color card instead of playing a Hill Giant in my cube deck. Come on people, this is a draft-impact exclusive card. Nobody would ever actually play this in a cube deck ...right?
Maybe a 10,000 card cube? =P
As to the card itself, I think it's an interesting idea and I'd like to try it. I don't think it's something I want in every draft though.
I agree. I also have the feeling the novelty would wear out after a few drafts.
That's only an issue if you are running it only because of the novelty. I'm interested in running it because I think it has the potential to improve the quality of our decks. If anything, I want the novelty to wear out and for it to simply become another aspect of drafting my cube.
My concern is more that too many cards like this might make drafts too consistent, and I'm going to go off topic a little here...
After some comments on another thread, I had a little look at Riptide Lab.
Now, I'll ignore that the site appears to be run as a vanity project by the individuals whose genius was not recognised by our hive-mind (whereas our very own wtwlf was suspended by the powers that be for incitement to violence, blasphemy or soliciting, I forget which). I'll also ignore the pompous verbosity of those same individuals that left me nauseous and envious in equal measure.
But what was interesting was that the prevalent goal of their cubes appeared to be of consistency. Consider: running smaller cubes; cutting "overpowered" and "underpowered" cards; running either multiples of niche cards or avoiding them altogether; generous manabases, perhaps with separate land drafts; apparent disdain for anything other than eight player draft... All of these would lead to decks more akin to legacy constructed than what I would expect to draft from my cube. Less variance in decks and less variance in gameplay. I can appreciate this approach, and understand some of their methods, but I like a higher variance in my Magic.
... and because I like to see a variety of decks, and I like to have decks that are not quite perfect versions of what I could build from my cube, I would not want to add cards that make drafting too easy. I'm not suggesting that this is what Cogwork Librarian and any similar cards would necessarily do, but they will need testing.
Wanting to include even a 3/3 for 3 would usually be an indication of a draft gone wrong. The only reason I can imagine this card seeing play is if there is a card like:
Cogwork Victory 5
Sorcery
You win the game if you control a Cogwork Librarian, Cogwork Accountant, and Cogwork Dance Instructor
And even then I probably wouldn't bother.
Cogwork Dance Intructor 2
Draft ~ face up. When you draft ~, dances round the room until the music stops. The nearest chair becomes each player's new draft position.
Hilarity!
Edit: I've had a quick look on Riptide Lab and Mr Waddell considers this card to be "super strong" which I think proves my point: you definitely should run it, unless you don't want to.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I like this card as well. Half the fun of playing cube is the draft itself. Playing out the matches is fine. How often have you opened pack two and seen power and some card perfect for your deck? Or any pack with two cards your deck really wants?
I get that this card will almost always be a last pick at the draft and never played, but I believe, that is the point. Sometimes packs are blanks because the packs aren't randomized properly, some packs just suck, and having this is a great hedge.
We threw this card in the mix last draft and it was pretty awesome, makes for some tough decisions and it got used 4 times, all meaningful. It was picked very high each time, too. Thumbs up from us.
How do you think he would preform as a 3/3 for 3? Would he make a few final 40s then?
Well, as a 3/3 for 3, it would have at least a small chance to be maindecked. Mostly in an artifact deck (if your cube supports it) or when you are desperate for 3-drops. With a cost of 4, it has zero chance to get maindecked, so it has zero chance to be included into my cube.
I don't get why people would cube this. It can improve your draft but it can also do absolutely nothing. Cube packs are so good that I would never p1p1, I would only pick it from a pack with nothing I wanted instead of hate drafting. It just doesn't seem that good.
That's like saying that Sol Ring can do absolutely nothing because it's possible to have a deck without coloured mana symbols. This is clearly a very poweful effect to draft - picking it at pick 8 or so will almost guarantee you a card that's better than whatever else you would have picked due to the fact that you'll see two more 15 card packs as well as a bunch with 14/13/12. That's just talking about the raw power level of cards and not the value of staying open and picking up cards that have synergy together without ever having to worry about if one of them will wheel.
And no, this won't make maindecks. If that's against the "spirit" of your cube then just don't run it. To me it seems like the people who got incredibly mad about flip cards which ended up not being a deal at all (and a bunch of them play Garruk 2.0).
Going with statistics, if Cogwork Librarian trades on P2P1 or P3P1 for a second card it's worth as much as the top 13% of your cube (you take the best 2 cards out of 15). Select all the top picks of your cube until you have 13%. On average, this card will trade for one of those. In my 360 powered cube, it will on average trade up with one of the top 48 cards. If you are unlucky and don't have a good second pick on P2P1 you can wait for the next pick or until P3P1.
If the WCS happens and the card is only in the 3rd pack, it's still very good. At that point in the draft you should know what deck you're aiming for. You can safely pick it high instead of hate drafting and double dip in a pack that as the needed cards for your deck.
As long as your always drafting, I don't see how this couldn't be a auto-include, unless you don't want to play the effect.
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Colorless hill giants win games? Yo, where all my Dodecapods at???
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I must be the only guy who has been able to attack with all the various 3/3s that can turn up in the cube and win games? I know it isn't normal limited but a decent body can do a lot of work.
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You seem to be suggesting you'd maindeck a vanilla 3/3 for 4 in a cube draft, but I must be misunderstanding you. What point are you making exactly?
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It wouldn't be my first choice but if I had some things that played with artifacts and or a lack of playables (because someone swapped this in for a second good card from a pack or something) I would not be against playing a colorless hill giant. I know cube is full of bomb cards doing nasty stuff but sometimes things don't go as you want them to go and you need a 3/3.
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This is exactly how I feel about the card. I just don't like something that changes how I draft the Cube. I think Cube should mirror a real draft experience as closely as possible and this feels like an uncard.
Power level I think it's solid but it's really only going to matter packs 1 or 2, if it doesn't show up until pack 3 then it's a total blank because at that point you're probably better just making a pick that'll make your 23.
Definitely not something I want to do on a regular basis but I think it could be interesting to try out once and see how it goes. Then if it's fun toss it in every now and then but not something I could draft every week.
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Agreed. This card has a similar feel to something like Booster Tutor, and I don't like cards that play like that.
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I doubt it will be the only card. Wizards have leaked two cards: one that relates to multiplayer, one that alters drafting. This suggests that these will be significant themes in the set. Sure there was only one Magc card referring to the planar cards, but there were also a bunch of planar cards that made it pretty obvious what the set's theme was.
I agree that this is a good card to support drafting specific deck archetypes.
You wouldn't have to sort your cube every time. Simply mark these cards and if someone sees one in Winston or Sealed they reveal it and pick another card from the undrafted portion of cube. It's what I did with my my multiplayer only cards and it worked fine.
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If you don't booster draft your cube, then obviously this guy is not for you. But I certainly think this is a strong and fun inclusion that warrants testing to see how your playgroup responds to such an effect. It will always get drafted relatively high since its power is based on the other cards in your cube.
Also, arguing about whether this would see play in your final 40 is ridiculous; the person who gets stuck with this card will have it on P3P15; how often does P3P15 make it into your final 40?
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In all seriousness, I think I'd run it for a bit at least, as I have been wanting to support a lot of archetypes that can get kinda hard to draft and this card seems like it would help that a lot.
You're welcome to not like Cogwork Librarian as a matter of taste, but it isn't really that strange in the grand scheme of things.
Maybe a 10,000 card cube? =P
As to the card itself, I think it's an interesting idea and I'd like to try it. I don't think it's something I want in every draft though.
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How do you think he would preform as a 3/3 for 3? Would he make a few final 40s then?
That's only an issue if you are running it only because of the novelty. I'm interested in running it because I think it has the potential to improve the quality of our decks. If anything, I want the novelty to wear out and for it to simply become another aspect of drafting my cube.
My concern is more that too many cards like this might make drafts too consistent, and I'm going to go off topic a little here...
Now, I'll ignore that the site appears to be run as a vanity project by the individuals whose genius was not recognised by our hive-mind (whereas our very own wtwlf was suspended by the powers that be for incitement to violence, blasphemy or soliciting, I forget which). I'll also ignore the pompous verbosity of those same individuals that left me nauseous and envious in equal measure.
But what was interesting was that the prevalent goal of their cubes appeared to be of consistency. Consider: running smaller cubes; cutting "overpowered" and "underpowered" cards; running either multiples of niche cards or avoiding them altogether; generous manabases, perhaps with separate land drafts; apparent disdain for anything other than eight player draft... All of these would lead to decks more akin to legacy constructed than what I would expect to draft from my cube. Less variance in decks and less variance in gameplay. I can appreciate this approach, and understand some of their methods, but I like a higher variance in my Magic.
... and because I like to see a variety of decks, and I like to have decks that are not quite perfect versions of what I could build from my cube, I would not want to add cards that make drafting too easy. I'm not suggesting that this is what Cogwork Librarian and any similar cards would necessarily do, but they will need testing.
Wanting to include even a 3/3 for 3 would usually be an indication of a draft gone wrong. The only reason I can imagine this card seeing play is if there is a card like:
Cogwork Victory 5
Sorcery
You win the game if you control a Cogwork Librarian, Cogwork Accountant, and Cogwork Dance Instructor
And even then I probably wouldn't bother.
Cogwork Dance Intructor 2
Draft ~ face up. When you draft ~, dances round the room until the music stops. The nearest chair becomes each player's new draft position.
Hilarity!
Edit: I've had a quick look on Riptide Lab and Mr Waddell considers this card to be "super strong" which I think proves my point: you definitely should run it, unless you don't want to.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I get that this card will almost always be a last pick at the draft and never played, but I believe, that is the point. Sometimes packs are blanks because the packs aren't randomized properly, some packs just suck, and having this is a great hedge.
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A - it would work as a sort-of playable card in decks that don't get enough, and
B - it would help other decks get more playables.
Just a thought...
Well, as a 3/3 for 3, it would have at least a small chance to be maindecked. Mostly in an artifact deck (if your cube supports it) or when you are desperate for 3-drops. With a cost of 4, it has zero chance to get maindecked, so it has zero chance to be included into my cube.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
That's like saying that Sol Ring can do absolutely nothing because it's possible to have a deck without coloured mana symbols. This is clearly a very poweful effect to draft - picking it at pick 8 or so will almost guarantee you a card that's better than whatever else you would have picked due to the fact that you'll see two more 15 card packs as well as a bunch with 14/13/12. That's just talking about the raw power level of cards and not the value of staying open and picking up cards that have synergy together without ever having to worry about if one of them will wheel.
And no, this won't make maindecks. If that's against the "spirit" of your cube then just don't run it. To me it seems like the people who got incredibly mad about flip cards which ended up not being a deal at all (and a bunch of them play Garruk 2.0).
Draft it on Cubetutor!