I think this is an interesting card and my group would like it. I have yet to find a mill card that will stick. I don't think it gets there on power level but but that is never why I try mill.
+Every mill card I have tried requires constant mana attention. You drop this then go about the usual Dimir business of killing/controlling.
+Cards are exiled. No dropping fatties in their grave for them to reanimate.
+Can be converted into a creature to make the mill investment mize into an earlier win, or into protection.
-Causes me to be tapped out on turn 3. Yes I could wait and leave my prime counter/kill turn open, but the benefit of it being cheap is getting it going early.
So we will see. I am certainly not going to pay big money for it, and I like my dimir cards, but none of them really excite my group into those colors.
I think this is an interesting card and my group would like it. I have yet to find a mill card that will stick. I don't think it gets there on power level but but that is never why I try mill.
+Every mill card I have tried requires constant mana attention. You drop this then go about the usual Dimir business of killing/controlling.
+Cards are exiled. No dropping fatties in their grave for them to reanimate.
+Can be converted into a creature to make the mill investment mize into an earlier win, or into protection.
-Causes me to be tapped out on turn 3. Yes I could wait and leave my prime counter/kill turn open, but the benefit of it being cheap is getting it going early.
So we will see. I am certainly not going to pay big money for it, and I like my dimir cards, but none of them really excite my group into those colors.
What about Jace, Memory Adept? He's close to a milling bomb as we'll ever get. Even if they reanimate a fatty then it's a very, very short clock.
I don't want them to make any PWers at 3 cc or less if they can't be bothered to keep the power level up. It just takes away from the shock and awe of walkers. And this piece of junk doesn't seems like it needs to be mythic anyway.
First ability should be all opponents. Not that it would matter for cube, but it should.
I really think calling her a mill card is selling her short. She's not going to win you the game by decking, she's going to win the game when you get rid of their bomb and then take it.
People are more than happy to let Sorin poop out a vampire to protect him. I will block with my Omenspeaker (orwhatevershe'scalled) to protect his 5 loyalty, and then snatch your best creature next turn to do it all over again. Sure it might be something dumb... but if your playing 1-2 drops, they are good enough for your deck, and better than a 1/1 token in many cases.
from the standard thread. I think being able to stall like this is invaluable in dimir. Apply pressure, use my opponents creatures to block my opponents creatures? yes, please.
Against a white based aggro deck it should also be fine.
You remove or counter one of their first or second turn spells. Drop this turn 3 and +2 her. The next turn you play a 1 or 2 drop you flipped with her. Rinse and repeat.
If you manage to clear the board with a mass removal or similar, it will be even easier to stabilise and let her do her work.
It seems that people don't seem to understand how to use it or why it is a threat to your opponent, even if he doesn't have an immediate impact.
Lets say you cast this walker turn 3. Your opponent has two creatures for four power total on the table. You plus him to 5 loyalty and reveal a creature, lets say a Voice of Resurgence. What does your opponent do?
Does your opponent attack you and ignore the threat of you playing a Voice of Resurgence, perhaps even dropping it after casting a board wipe? Or worse, maybe you just wipe the board anyhow and fish for an even juicier threat and your opponent is now no longer able to stop. Even if you don't wipe, you get a free card out of it that is now able to stop your opponents advances and still have all your mana open and did not invest an additional card to do so.
Or does he attack Ashiok, is forced to commit additional resources to actually kill him, and risks those resources to a board wipe. And even if he doesn't kill him and only buys himself time, he didn't advance his own game plan and gave you much time to find an answer to his creatures.
Even if you miss and Ashiok doesn't present an actual threat which leads your opponent to ignore him, you could still be able to set your opponent back enough and have another go with his plus ability. This puts Ashiok at 7 loyalty, which is often far out of reach to get rid of him on turn 4, and the conundrum for your opponent begins anew.
The card does pose a risk of you spending your entire third turn without actually having a direct impact on the board. However, then again you don't necessarily need to be casting him on your third turn either. The value lies in him being a future threat.
I think this captures my fascination with this card better. Its a planeswalker that demands an answer, or protects you. I'm not protecting ashiok, ashiok is protecting me.
The artifact matters theme doesn't seem to be all that popular with my group. Tezzeret and friends aren't in, which I why I left Strix out. Or do you feel Strix is so good it makes it in even without an artifact theme?
I really think calling her a mill card is selling her short. She's not going to win you the game by decking, she's going to win the game when you get rid of their bomb and then take it.
Or it mills the cards on top of their bomb, they draw it, then they kill you. Milling isnt a positive. The + is completely neutral. Until you successfully use the second ability, you get no value.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The artifact matters theme doesn't seem to be all that popular with my group. Tezzeret and friends aren't in, which I why I left Strix out. Or do you feel Strix is so good it makes it in even without an artifact theme?
I don't have an artifact theme at all, and I run it. As was suggested above, being able to stall in Dimir is extremely valuable. The Baleful Strix is not flashy, but it trades off an attacker cheaply, and nets you a card. Wouldn't we all play Murder for UB if it was a cantrip too?
As far as this planeswalker is concerned, I will at least try it out in place of Nemesis of Reason. It's most likely better, although my players are starting to grumble a bit about planeswalker density, so I need to keep an eye on that.
I really think calling her a mill card is selling her short. She's not going to win you the game by decking, she's going to win the game when you get rid of their bomb and then take it.
I don't think anyone is debating that either exactly, but compared to the other cards in this section, you have to be one HELL of a card to break into the top 5.
While I am not particularly impressed with this walker, I think she will play out better than she looks. 3 is very cheap and 5 loyalty on turn 3 is a very big walker. She does not protect herself, but neither does Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Liliana of the Veil, Jace Beleren, or Domri Rade. Seems WotC is not willing to print a 3cc walker that can defend itself.
I know it is hard to think about now, but both JB and LofV turned out to be a lot more powerful they immediately looked. Same for Domri. This card might not be on the power level of any of those, I don't know, but my guess is she is more powerful than we all think.
I'll test her out, if only because I want her to be decent. Turn 3 Her, Turn 4 Boardwipe + Free Creature? It could be a thing. I wish the -X hit any spell, or at least any permanent, but I guess that would have been silly.
I'm not so certain Ashiok is the rubbish most are making it out to be. No it doesn't function like the other planeswalkers in cube, but that's not exactly a valid metric. Ashiok is a finish generator. You use it to store up your end game while you stablize, and then drop your finish for free while you maintain control from your hand. Also, there are enough etb effects running around in cube that even one activation of its minus ability will provide a good deal of value.
I'm not saying it's the next best thing to happen to dimir, but I think pigeon-holing it as bad simply because it doesn't look like the other planeswalkers in cube is a bad practice.
I don't dislike it because it's different than other plneswalkers, I dislike it because I don't think it's better than the other options in UB.
It's kinda like a multicolor Bribery with suspend that can only search part of their library, and can be disrupted before providing a threat. That also runs the risk of potentially generating no value at all.
While I am not particularly impressed with this walker, I think she will play out better than she looks. 3 is very cheap and 5 loyalty on turn 3 is a very big walker. She does not protect herself, but neither does Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Liliana of the Veil, Jace Beleren, or Domri Rade. Seems WotC is not willing to print a 3cc walker that can defend itself.
Ajani, beleren, and domri can guarantee value even if killed immediately. I don't think domri or ajani are that great, anyway. Ashiok can't generate value before dying.
Liliana protects herself better than most, so I have no idea what you mean about her.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I don't dislike it because it's different than other plneswalkers, I dislike it because I don't think it's better than the other options in UB.
It's kinda like a multicolor Bribery with suspend that can only search part of their library, and can be disrupted before providing a threat. That also runs the risk of potentially generating no value at all.
Yeah, that's a fairly apt description keeping in mind that it can function as multiple Briberies while also knowing what your options are beforehand to best set up your play, and costs a bit over half. There is certainly a list of both pros and cons from this card.
It probably isn't better than the other dimir options especially for those who like the artifact.dec package, but I felt it worth mentioning that "It doesn't protect itself, therefore it isn't good." or "No immediate impact, therefore it's worthless." isn't always the best line of thinking for evaluating a planeswalker.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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+Every mill card I have tried requires constant mana attention. You drop this then go about the usual Dimir business of killing/controlling.
+Cards are exiled. No dropping fatties in their grave for them to reanimate.
+Can be converted into a creature to make the mill investment mize into an earlier win, or into protection.
-Causes me to be tapped out on turn 3. Yes I could wait and leave my prime counter/kill turn open, but the benefit of it being cheap is getting it going early.
So we will see. I am certainly not going to pay big money for it, and I like my dimir cards, but none of them really excite my group into those colors.
What about Jace, Memory Adept? He's close to a milling bomb as we'll ever get. Even if they reanimate a fatty then it's a very, very short clock.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
First ability should be all opponents. Not that it would matter for cube, but it should.
from the standard thread. I think being able to stall like this is invaluable in dimir. Apply pressure, use my opponents creatures to block my opponents creatures? yes, please.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
You remove or counter one of their first or second turn spells. Drop this turn 3 and +2 her. The next turn you play a 1 or 2 drop you flipped with her. Rinse and repeat.
If you manage to clear the board with a mass removal or similar, it will be even easier to stabilise and let her do her work.
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I think this captures my fascination with this card better. Its a planeswalker that demands an answer, or protects you. I'm not protecting ashiok, ashiok is protecting me.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Or it mills the cards on top of their bomb, they draw it, then they kill you. Milling isnt a positive. The + is completely neutral. Until you successfully use the second ability, you get no value.
I don't have an artifact theme at all, and I run it. As was suggested above, being able to stall in Dimir is extremely valuable. The Baleful Strix is not flashy, but it trades off an attacker cheaply, and nets you a card. Wouldn't we all play Murder for UB if it was a cantrip too?
As far as this planeswalker is concerned, I will at least try it out in place of Nemesis of Reason. It's most likely better, although my players are starting to grumble a bit about planeswalker density, so I need to keep an eye on that.
I don't think anyone is debating that either exactly, but compared to the other cards in this section, you have to be one HELL of a card to break into the top 5.
I know it is hard to think about now, but both JB and LofV turned out to be a lot more powerful they immediately looked. Same for Domri. This card might not be on the power level of any of those, I don't know, but my guess is she is more powerful than we all think.
That said, UB is a brutal guild...
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However, I think she really exemplifies a perfect cross of power and uniqueness.
I think she deserves testing among everyone. And then people will have to determine if she is worth it.
I'm not saying it's the next best thing to happen to dimir, but I think pigeon-holing it as bad simply because it doesn't look like the other planeswalkers in cube is a bad practice.
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It's kinda like a multicolor Bribery with suspend that can only search part of their library, and can be disrupted before providing a threat. That also runs the risk of potentially generating no value at all.
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Ajani, beleren, and domri can guarantee value even if killed immediately. I don't think domri or ajani are that great, anyway. Ashiok can't generate value before dying.
Liliana protects herself better than most, so I have no idea what you mean about her.
Yeah, that's a fairly apt description keeping in mind that it can function as multiple Briberies while also knowing what your options are beforehand to best set up your play, and costs a bit over half. There is certainly a list of both pros and cons from this card.
It probably isn't better than the other dimir options especially for those who like the artifact.dec package, but I felt it worth mentioning that "It doesn't protect itself, therefore it isn't good." or "No immediate impact, therefore it's worthless." isn't always the best line of thinking for evaluating a planeswalker.
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