It didn't justify the ETBT drawback for us. Scry 1 has historically proven to not be worth a mana or a card. So losing a mana by attaching it to an ETBT land just didn't prove to be worthwhile. And unlike constructed where the value of multiple scry effects will stack over the course of the game, you're looking at a 1-shot effect, which struggles even more to be worth the drawback. They're fine lands, but after playtesting them, I think they're pretty easy to exclude from the cube.
These would be better than ABU duals at Scry 2 IMO.
Also at Scry 1 with no ETB tapped. There's never been a land that etb untapped unconditionally and provided two colors without drawback except the ABU duals, and there has never been a land that etb untapped, tapped for two colors, AND had a benefit.
Painlands are pretty close in that they fulfill the important condition of entering play untapped. I think stapling the scry onto painlands would have been more than acceptable for cube. Let's face it: painlands are pretty low on the totem pole of playable lands in every format, barely above taplands like Coastal Tower. Obsoleting a set of lands that rarely see play anymore would hardly cause an uproar.
As for me, I think 7th place is the right spot for these, except for Boros whose other options are godawful and therefore enjoys a higher rank in the 6th spot.
I agree with Rant. It definitely varies by color pair, so there's no set in stone list of the order of the best lands. I've been contemplating completely removing all of the ETBT lands from my cube and replacing them with pain lands, M10 lands, and Scars lands depending on the color pair.
I agree with Rant. It definitely varies by color pair, so there's no set in stone list of the order of the best lands. I've been contemplating completely removing all of the ETBT lands from my cube and replacing them with pain lands, M10 lands, and Scars lands depending on the color pair.
I currently have no ETBT lands in my guild section unless they can also kill my opponent. Manlands are one of the few exceptions that have proven powerful enough to overcome that drawback.
I currently have no ETBT lands in my guild section unless they can also kill my opponent. Manlands are one of the few exceptions that have proven powerful enough to overcome that drawback.
I'm inclined to agree with this way of handling the lands as well. The more I play with ETBT lands, the less I care for them. I'm beginning to think that hitting play tapped is a pretty big drawback on a land, which means the land should do something really awesome to warrant its inclusion in an environment like cube (e.g. the man lands).
I currently have no ETBT lands in my guild section unless they can also kill my opponent. Manlands are one of the few exceptions that have proven powerful enough to overcome that drawback.
I'm also running painlands in all the enemy guilds as my fourth lands. I really like what they do for fixing. They help support aggro both when they are in aggro decks but also when they are in more controlling decks by causing a couple of points of damage. They force people to think about their mana bases. I do wish they had basic land types, though.
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If they printed painlands with basic land types, I'd probably run them over the ABU duals just because I don't think you should get to have your cake and eat it too. The shock lands are a great design and I wish they would do another cycle like them.
If they printed painlands with basic land types, I'd probably run them over the ABU duals just because I don't think you should get to have your cake and eat it too. The shock lands are a great design and I wish they would do another cycle like them.
I'd play them in addition to the ABU duals, but I'd play them. I'm sure I posted that already a long time ago in another thread, but I'd like dual lands with basic land types and the City of Brass drawback (which is more of a drawback than what the painlands have, but I'd still be a happy cuber!).
It didn't justify the ETBT drawback for us. Scry 1 has historically proven to not be worth a mana or a card. So losing a mana by attaching it to an ETBT land just didn't prove to be worthwhile. And unlike constructed where the value of multiple scry effects will stack over the course of the game, you're looking at a 1-shot effect, which struggles even more to be worth the drawback. They're fine lands, but after playtesting them, I think they're pretty easy to exclude from the cube.
I agree. I sometimes wonder whether I underestimate them, but I think in comparison to constructed decks, Cube decks are not well equipped to take full advantage of the effect. Constructed decks can run a ridiculous amount of one drops, so you don't really need more than one untapped land to get going and after that ever scry helps you hit non-lands, which is exactly what you want. Cube manabases are worse, so my main concern usually is hitting the right color turn one. I want my dual lands to enable that, the only exception I make is for man lands because they help increase the threat density while still fixing your mana. I'm OK risking to not be able to play my turn one threat when I get am uncounterable post-wrath threat in return. Compared to that, Scry 1 is a tiny advantage and not worth risking my turn one threat over.
Ah, so we agree fully.
A missed opportunity design-wise IMHO (for cube/in general, no idea about standard).
They seem to be doing quite well in Standard. I think they are a lot better than I assumed, and a lot closer to the cusp then we give them credit for. That said, they are just below the cusp. Oh well.
I think Scry 2 would have made it in cube but lord would that have power impacts on standard. I would not be surprised if Scry 2 ones made a huge deal in Modern too. Play lands instead of the banned Ponder...
I think the reason why they ar eso good in standard is someone can set themselves back one turn, rinse and repeat and hit 2,3, sometimes 8 scrys 1s in a game. That gets very good. Also with all the shock they can hit the mana they need early if they need it and then lay out the scry lands when they need the effect.
No way one scry one in a deck is going to do it in cube. It is also no like Theros draft because there are many playable scry cards so again the critical mass of scry makes it very good and consistent card quality improvement.
When Theros came out, I didn't care about the Temples at all, since I was certain that they wouldn't replace any of the dual lands that I was already running. However, I lately thought about increasing my dual lands from 5 to 6 cycles. However, some great duals - like the Worldwake Manduals - only got half a cycle so far, so I would need to run the enemy lands of a different cycle. Since the Manduals etb tapped and since running 1 etb tapped cycle next to 5 faster dual land cycles seems fine, I thought about using the five enemy Temples once Journey into Nyx gets released. I think the scry 1 is a nice bonus for the slower, more controlish decks that would be ok with running etb tapped lands.
When Theros came out, I didn't care about the Temples at all, since I was certain that they wouldn't replace any of the dual lands that I was already running. However, I lately thought about increasing my dual lands from 5 to 6 cycles. However, some great duals - like the Worldwake Manduals - only got half a cycle so far, so I would need to run the enemy lands of a different cycle. Since the Manduals etb tapped and since running 1 etb tapped cycle next to 5 faster dual land cycles seems fine, I thought about using the five enemy Temples once Journey into Nyx gets released. I think the scry 1 is a nice bonus for the slower, more controlish decks that would be ok with running etb tapped lands.
I can see running enemy temples in UG and UR. GB and WB depend on how much aggro you run in black and green, and RW DEFINITELY wants faster duals than that.
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Well, there'll always be color combinations that want etb tapped lands less than others. That does make the corresponding dual lands lower picks during the draft, but it doesn't make them useless. And even though aggro is the most common type of deck in Boros, UWR control decks, Naya midrange and Wildfire decks are all quite popular in my cube and they can all make good use of Temple of Triumph.
I wouldn't include them over any lands that can produce mana right away.
Exactly. I think the competition is too steep for these lands until you get to >5 lands per color pair. I like the checklands (Clifftop Retreat and friends) and painlands better. If I'm going to play an ETB land, it better be a manland or a Ravnica karoo.
I wouldn't include them over any lands that can produce mana right away.
Exactly. I think the competition is too steep for these lands until you get to >5 lands per color pair. I like the checklands (Clifftop Retreat and friends) and painlands better. If I'm going to play an ETB land, it better be a manland or a Ravnica karoo.
That's exactly what I said above: I wasn't interested at all when I ran only 5 dual land cycles. I was already running ABU Duals, Shockduals, Fetchlands, Checklands and Manduals/Painlands (had to split this cycle due to the lack of enemy Manduals), all of which are just better than the Temples. However, at 600 cards, a 6th dual land cycle might be appropriate to improve the fixing in my cube. At least that was my conclusion after reading wtwlf's article on fixing in cube. The problem is that for enemy duals, the pickings start to get rather slim at that point, since many dual lands only exist for the five allied color pairs (Fastlands, Mirage Fetchlands, Manduals). The best remaining options for enemy pairs are Filterlands, Ravnica Karoos and the Temples from Theros block.
I am not a huge fan of the Karoos (which I ran for five years or so). Those are even slower than normal etb tapped lands! They are also susceptible to targeted land destruction. Plus, I prefer running only lands that produce a single mana for the sake of clarity (it is easier to see how much mana a player has available this way). So it came down to Filterlands vs Temples. Since I am already running the five Worldwake Manduals, I thought that the best way to fill out that cycle would be to go with the etb tapped lands. That way, I have 4 universally useful cycles of duals, 1 that is primarily for faster decks (Scars Fastlands and enemy Painlands) and 1 that is mostly for slower decks (Worldwake Manduals and enemy Temples). I think having 1 out of 6 cycles consist of etb tapped lands isn't a huge problem. Since those lands are only useful for half the decks, their pick order is lower than for almost any other type of dual lands, which makes for more interesting drafting decisions.
I laughed at these lands when I saw them previewed. Thought they were horrible. However, I've been pretty impressed with them in standard.
Current standard is a slower format than cube, and the tempo lost in the early turns rarely makes a difference to offset the fixing plus scry. I would argue that in a deck like esper control or a big midrange deck without many turn 1 plays, the scry lands are even better than the shock lands.
In a large unpowered cube, I would highly recommend these lands. Not just because they are the 6th best land set or whatever, but in a slightly slower format with gaps in your mana curve, the ability to filter your deck is huge. Especially midrange-control style decks, which large unpowered cubes lead to a high % of.
The great thing about the scry lands is it allows you to run slightly more lands than necessary in your deck, which gives a higher % of consistency of opening hands. Then you can strategically fill the gaps in your mana curve with the scry land, scrying away unnecessary lands when doing so.
In late game top deck wars, scrying away a useless land, is very siimilar to "Add U or B to your mana pool, comes into play tapped, draw 1"
I've been cubing with the five enemy Temples (as stand-ins for the as of yet unreleased enemy manduals) for some time now and they have been pretty popular. Every non-aggro deck is happy to run them. Sometimes, a deck even runs a Temple that only features one of the deck's colors just for the scry 1. Like Temple of Triumph in a UR Kiki-Twin deck, to help dig for the combo. Overall, everyone who plays with my cube is happy with the Temples. They are better than initially expected and good options for larger cubes.
In most enemy guilds I'm running shocks, pains, checks, and temples and my experience with the temples has been about the same - they get the job done and the Scry 1 is a nice upside even if it doesn't make up for the fact that they come into play tapped. Based on Cube Tutor data, none of them are in the bottom 50 which means they also appear to be more popular with people drafting my cube than some of the pain lands, check lands, scars lands and even man lands (Lavaclaw Reaches) that I'm running. I'll be happy to replace them with something that doesn't always ETB tapped or enemy man lands or when they're available, but as budget fixing they're just fine.
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Painlands are pretty close in that they fulfill the important condition of entering play untapped. I think stapling the scry onto painlands would have been more than acceptable for cube. Let's face it: painlands are pretty low on the totem pole of playable lands in every format, barely above taplands like Coastal Tower. Obsoleting a set of lands that rarely see play anymore would hardly cause an uproar.
As for me, I think 7th place is the right spot for these, except for Boros whose other options are godawful and therefore enjoys a higher rank in the 6th spot.
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I currently have no ETBT lands in my guild section unless they can also kill my opponent. Manlands are one of the few exceptions that have proven powerful enough to overcome that drawback.
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I'm inclined to agree with this way of handling the lands as well. The more I play with ETBT lands, the less I care for them. I'm beginning to think that hitting play tapped is a pretty big drawback on a land, which means the land should do something really awesome to warrant its inclusion in an environment like cube (e.g. the man lands).
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I'm also running painlands in all the enemy guilds as my fourth lands. I really like what they do for fixing. They help support aggro both when they are in aggro decks but also when they are in more controlling decks by causing a couple of points of damage. They force people to think about their mana bases. I do wish they had basic land types, though.
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Scry 2 is worth a mana. Meaning it's worth an ETBT drawback. Scry 1 is not.
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I agree. I sometimes wonder whether I underestimate them, but I think in comparison to constructed decks, Cube decks are not well equipped to take full advantage of the effect. Constructed decks can run a ridiculous amount of one drops, so you don't really need more than one untapped land to get going and after that ever scry helps you hit non-lands, which is exactly what you want. Cube manabases are worse, so my main concern usually is hitting the right color turn one. I want my dual lands to enable that, the only exception I make is for man lands because they help increase the threat density while still fixing your mana. I'm OK risking to not be able to play my turn one threat when I get am uncounterable post-wrath threat in return. Compared to that, Scry 1 is a tiny advantage and not worth risking my turn one threat over.
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They seem to be doing quite well in Standard. I think they are a lot better than I assumed, and a lot closer to the cusp then we give them credit for. That said, they are just below the cusp. Oh well.
I think Scry 2 would have made it in cube but lord would that have power impacts on standard. I would not be surprised if Scry 2 ones made a huge deal in Modern too. Play lands instead of the banned Ponder...
No way one scry one in a deck is going to do it in cube. It is also no like Theros draft because there are many playable scry cards so again the critical mass of scry makes it very good and consistent card quality improvement.
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I can see running enemy temples in UG and UR. GB and WB depend on how much aggro you run in black and green, and RW DEFINITELY wants faster duals than that.
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Exactly. I think the competition is too steep for these lands until you get to >5 lands per color pair. I like the checklands (Clifftop Retreat and friends) and painlands better. If I'm going to play an ETB land, it better be a manland or a Ravnica karoo.
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That's exactly what I said above: I wasn't interested at all when I ran only 5 dual land cycles. I was already running ABU Duals, Shockduals, Fetchlands, Checklands and Manduals/Painlands (had to split this cycle due to the lack of enemy Manduals), all of which are just better than the Temples. However, at 600 cards, a 6th dual land cycle might be appropriate to improve the fixing in my cube. At least that was my conclusion after reading wtwlf's article on fixing in cube. The problem is that for enemy duals, the pickings start to get rather slim at that point, since many dual lands only exist for the five allied color pairs (Fastlands, Mirage Fetchlands, Manduals). The best remaining options for enemy pairs are Filterlands, Ravnica Karoos and the Temples from Theros block.
I am not a huge fan of the Karoos (which I ran for five years or so). Those are even slower than normal etb tapped lands! They are also susceptible to targeted land destruction. Plus, I prefer running only lands that produce a single mana for the sake of clarity (it is easier to see how much mana a player has available this way). So it came down to Filterlands vs Temples. Since I am already running the five Worldwake Manduals, I thought that the best way to fill out that cycle would be to go with the etb tapped lands. That way, I have 4 universally useful cycles of duals, 1 that is primarily for faster decks (Scars Fastlands and enemy Painlands) and 1 that is mostly for slower decks (Worldwake Manduals and enemy Temples). I think having 1 out of 6 cycles consist of etb tapped lands isn't a huge problem. Since those lands are only useful for half the decks, their pick order is lower than for almost any other type of dual lands, which makes for more interesting drafting decisions.
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(We also need enemy fastlands, btw.)
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Current standard is a slower format than cube, and the tempo lost in the early turns rarely makes a difference to offset the fixing plus scry. I would argue that in a deck like esper control or a big midrange deck without many turn 1 plays, the scry lands are even better than the shock lands.
In a large unpowered cube, I would highly recommend these lands. Not just because they are the 6th best land set or whatever, but in a slightly slower format with gaps in your mana curve, the ability to filter your deck is huge. Especially midrange-control style decks, which large unpowered cubes lead to a high % of.
The great thing about the scry lands is it allows you to run slightly more lands than necessary in your deck, which gives a higher % of consistency of opening hands. Then you can strategically fill the gaps in your mana curve with the scry land, scrying away unnecessary lands when doing so.
In late game top deck wars, scrying away a useless land, is very siimilar to "Add U or B to your mana pool, comes into play tapped, draw 1"
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