MTG Salvation

I have this friend who knows how to read, so I ask him for vocabulary choices when I'm writing the next great American novel.

Come on guys, no one was attacking anyone; we have just learned that tournament success/rating etc. doesn't always translate to Cube intuition. Does it sometimes? Of course, and we likely all know people with whom there is a direct relation. But there are plenty who have no idea due to wrong thinking, wrong attitude, or not enough time spent doing it. And then there are plenty of people who have had minimal success who know a TON about Cube (one of my favorite Cubers rarely plays sanctioned tournaments at all!).

-AA

Quote from RJRellik

My friend eats a lot of food, and is really good at eating it. So when I'm making a cake, I always ask for his opinion on what ingredients to make it with.

This is the worst type of person to ask for cake advice. They usually expect a share in return for their assistance and the next thing you know they've scoffed the lot.

An additional point about Black Vise is that it does better in an aggro deck that has the right sort of disruption. A red or blue aggro deck running land destruction or bounce will have an opponent with plenty of cards in hand. A black deck with Hypnotic Spectre and Hymn to Tourach is a less good match. Maybe this is obvious to people but I thought I'd mention it.

I like pairing it with Rishadan Port and Tangle Wire type cards. I even used the Ice side of Fire // Ice to get in an extra round of 3 damage once when I was on the play.

I see the vise gone from a lot of lists now. What has changed to make this happen? Too much aggro support? Better artifacts replacing the slot? Still seems like a fairly unique ability, even if late game it may be a dead draw (not unlike Library of Alexandria).

Quote from TheRealEbase131 »

I see the vise gone from a lot of lists now. What has changed to make this happen? Too much aggro support? Better artifacts replacing the slot? Still seems like a fairly unique ability, even if late game it may be a dead draw (not unlike Library of Alexandria).

There have been a lot of good aggro cards that have an impact at all points of the game. I still run vice, but it's nearing EoL for me. It's amazing on turn 1. It does literally nothing in way too many games if you draw it turn 4 or later, AND it only goes in 1 deck. Any burn spell is gonna be more desirable, and even a 1 mana 2/1 can at least threaten to attack.

They're doing it wrong..

Most people think it's an unreasonable card because it is out of color pie or it is just too strong/boring. You either have a way to remove (or get under it) or you eventually just die. That's precisely why I run it so I'm probably in the minority. I think it's a very good card and I have no plans to ever take it out.

You lose quite a bit with the planeswalkers redirection rule (Cannot hit planeswalkers) + decks becoming more streamlined and efficient.

One drops/ aggressive deck removal have also improve significantly.

From my understanding, Ankh of Mishra is a slightly more reliable version of Black Vise that works well with the land destruction/ mana denial already in cube.

In my experience Black Vise is really only good in red aggro, and is just kinda awful after turn 2, even if your deck has Wheel of Fortune or Armageddon effects. Card is good when it works in exactly red aggro, but it's just so narrow and wasn't even always worth maindecking so we cut it a while ago.

Not that I think it's super relevant to the discussion, but we also played it before we had power in our cube. I'd have to imagine it's probably even worse now that we play fast mana so opponents can sometimes just dump their hands and eliminate even more potential damage.

Quote from steve_man »

I was a never big fan of Black Vise, I've always found it too narrow in application and really doesn't contribute to any particular synergies.

Quote from Breathe1234 »

One drops/ aggressive deck removal have also improve significantly.

From my understanding, Ankh of Mishra is a slightly more reliable version of Black Vise that works well with the land destruction/ mana denial already in cube.

I agree with all of this. Aggro does perfectly fine without Black Vise. I always felt Ankh of Mishra was the better card anyways, and I don't even cube that these days because again, aggro does perfectly fine for me without it.

Deinitely agree on Ankh, I run both!!!

Quote from Morphling »

They're doing it wrong..

Most people think it's an unreasonable card because it is out of color pie or it is just too strong/boring. You either have a way to remove (or get under it) or you eventually just die. That's precisely why I run it so I'm probably in the minority. I think it's a very good card and I have no plans to ever take it out.

I think I can safely assume that the vast majority of people cutting vise aren't cutting it because it's too strong.

I cut it because in most cases it does too little if you drop after turn 1 or turn 2. I can't imagine cutting it because it's out of the color pie.

Cheers,
rant