I have this friend who knows how to read, so I ask him for vocabulary choices when I'm writing the next great American novel.
Come on guys, no one was attacking anyone; we have just learned that tournament success/rating etc. doesn't always translate to Cube intuition. Does it sometimes? Of course, and we likely all know people with whom there is a direct relation. But there are plenty who have no idea due to wrong thinking, wrong attitude, or not enough time spent doing it. And then there are plenty of people who have had minimal success who know a TON about Cube (one of my favorite Cubers rarely plays sanctioned tournaments at all!).
My friend eats a lot of food, and is really good at eating it. So when I'm making a cake, I always ask for his opinion on what ingredients to make it with.
This is the worst type of person to ask for cake advice. They usually expect a share in return for their assistance and the next thing you know they've scoffed the lot.
An additional point about Black Vise is that it does better in an aggro deck that has the right sort of disruption. A red or blue aggro deck running land destruction or bounce will have an opponent with plenty of cards in hand. A black deck with Hypnotic Spectre and Hymn to Tourach is a less good match. Maybe this is obvious to people but I thought I'd mention it.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I like pairing it with Rishadan Port and Tangle Wire type cards. I even used the Ice side of Fire // Ice to get in an extra round of 3 damage once when I was on the play.
I see the vise gone from a lot of lists now. What has changed to make this happen? Too much aggro support? Better artifacts replacing the slot? Still seems like a fairly unique ability, even if late game it may be a dead draw (not unlike Library of Alexandria).
I see the vise gone from a lot of lists now. What has changed to make this happen? Too much aggro support? Better artifacts replacing the slot? Still seems like a fairly unique ability, even if late game it may be a dead draw (not unlike Library of Alexandria).
There have been a lot of good aggro cards that have an impact at all points of the game. I still run vice, but it's nearing EoL for me. It's amazing on turn 1. It does literally nothing in way too many games if you draw it turn 4 or later, AND it only goes in 1 deck. Any burn spell is gonna be more desirable, and even a 1 mana 2/1 can at least threaten to attack.
Most people think it's an unreasonable card because it is out of color pie or it is just too strong/boring. You either have a way to remove (or get under it) or you eventually just die. That's precisely why I run it so I'm probably in the minority. I think it's a very good card and I have no plans to ever take it out.
You lose quite a bit with the planeswalkers redirection rule (Cannot hit planeswalkers) + decks becoming more streamlined and efficient.
One drops/ aggressive deck removal have also improve significantly.
From my understanding, Ankh of Mishra is a slightly more reliable version of Black Vise that works well with the land destruction/ mana denial already in cube.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
One drops/ aggressive deck removal have also improve significantly.
From my understanding, Ankh of Mishra is a slightly more reliable version of Black Vise that works well with the land destruction/ mana denial already in cube.
I agree with all of this. Aggro does perfectly fine without Black Vise. I always felt Ankh of Mishra was the better card anyways, and I don't even cube that these days because again, aggro does perfectly fine for me without it.
In my experience Black Vise is really only good in red aggro, and is just kinda awful after turn 2, even if your deck has Wheel of Fortune or Armageddon effects. Card is good when it works in exactly red aggro, but it's just so narrow and wasn't even always worth maindecking so we cut it a while ago.
Not that I think it's super relevant to the discussion, but we also played it before we had power in our cube. I'd have to imagine it's probably even worse now that we play fast mana so opponents can sometimes just dump their hands and eliminate even more potential damage.
One drops/ aggressive deck removal have also improve significantly.
From my understanding, Ankh of Mishra is a slightly more reliable version of Black Vise that works well with the land destruction/ mana denial already in cube.
I agree with all of this. Aggro does perfectly fine without Black Vise. I always felt Ankh of Mishra was the better card anyways, and I don't even cube that these days because again, aggro does perfectly fine for me without it.
Most people think it's an unreasonable card because it is out of color pie or it is just too strong/boring. You either have a way to remove (or get under it) or you eventually just die. That's precisely why I run it so I'm probably in the minority. I think it's a very good card and I have no plans to ever take it out.
I think I can safely assume that the vast majority of people cutting vise aren't cutting it because it's too strong.
Come on guys, no one was attacking anyone; we have just learned that tournament success/rating etc. doesn't always translate to Cube intuition. Does it sometimes? Of course, and we likely all know people with whom there is a direct relation. But there are plenty who have no idea due to wrong thinking, wrong attitude, or not enough time spent doing it. And then there are plenty of people who have had minimal success who know a TON about Cube (one of my favorite Cubers rarely plays sanctioned tournaments at all!).
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
This is the worst type of person to ask for cake advice. They usually expect a share in return for their assistance and the next thing you know they've scoffed the lot.
An additional point about Black Vise is that it does better in an aggro deck that has the right sort of disruption. A red or blue aggro deck running land destruction or bounce will have an opponent with plenty of cards in hand. A black deck with Hypnotic Spectre and Hymn to Tourach is a less good match. Maybe this is obvious to people but I thought I'd mention it.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There have been a lot of good aggro cards that have an impact at all points of the game. I still run vice, but it's nearing EoL for me. It's amazing on turn 1. It does literally nothing in way too many games if you draw it turn 4 or later, AND it only goes in 1 deck. Any burn spell is gonna be more desirable, and even a 1 mana 2/1 can at least threaten to attack.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Most people think it's an unreasonable card because it is out of color pie or it is just too strong/boring. You either have a way to remove (or get under it) or you eventually just die. That's precisely why I run it so I'm probably in the minority. I think it's a very good card and I have no plans to ever take it out.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
One drops/ aggressive deck removal have also improve significantly.
From my understanding, Ankh of Mishra is a slightly more reliable version of Black Vise that works well with the land destruction/ mana denial already in cube.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I agree with all of this. Aggro does perfectly fine without Black Vise. I always felt Ankh of Mishra was the better card anyways, and I don't even cube that these days because again, aggro does perfectly fine for me without it.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Not that I think it's super relevant to the discussion, but we also played it before we had power in our cube. I'd have to imagine it's probably even worse now that we play fast mana so opponents can sometimes just dump their hands and eliminate even more potential damage.
Deinitely agree on Ankh, I run both!!!
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
I think I can safely assume that the vast majority of people cutting vise aren't cutting it because it's too strong.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963