I had Black Vise in the intial incarnation of my cube. It was a seminal aggro card back in the day, often doing 7-12 damage on its own for 1mana, especially if drawn turn 1.
It was drafted and maindecked in each draft for my first 4, and it sucked. It dealt a total of less than 10 damage in all 4 drafts, combined, and was usually a completely dead card.
One of my drafters, arguably the best player in our group, with a 1900 rating on MTGO and who usually wins 3 or 4 of the 4 prerelease events at his LGS per prerelease weekend, noted that The Rack in its place would have dealt quite a bit more damage, and would have dealt damage every single time it was drawn, except in the control matchup.
My argument for Vice is thatit a card you want for control.
I've noticed a wide variety of opinions about this card, from 360 staple to very cuttable. I've never seen The Rack played at all in cube, but I observed that even our Rampish and controllish decks tended to spend quite a few turns at 3 or fewer cards rather than 5+.
Thoughts?
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It's not a card you want for control. It's a card that aggressive decks want to punish control with. It's a cheap colorless source of damage that can go in every aggro deck. Just like all 1-drops, you want to play it on T1, and it's a much worse topdeck. But the potential ceiling is so high on this card for the mana investment that it's worth the inconsistency.
In our cube, Black Vise regularly doesn't deal enough damage even when played turn 1 against a control deck. Also, it not being a creature, it doesn't help push damage through with your other creatures and has no synergy with boost, equipment, reanimation etc. Also also, it has anti-synergy with discard, which comes up from time to time.
It's absurd when your opponent can't play anything, but at that point it doesn't matter much what you play as an aggro deck as long it puts on any pressure at all.
I might actually be able to accept that The Rack will often be the better play, since it isn't played when you actually want to be playing creatures, cannot be gotten out of by doing what you want to be doing in the first place (excepting drawing cards), and actually has synergy with discard.
In any case, Black Vise will soon be leaving our cube again. I think it's a 500+ card, personally.
If you are on the play, and opponent hits their 1 drop, 2 drop, and 3 drop, Vise does 6 damage. If you are on the draw, and they also hit their 1 drop, 2 drop, Vise does 3 damage. So you expect it to do at least 4.5 damage each time it is in your opening hand, and it has upside. This is insane for a colorless 1 drop. Moreover, it really dominates certain matchups -- eg. control usually misses one drops (or plays 1 drops that draw them cards), doesn't want to play proactively, and wants to draw more cards; all of these scenarios Vise absolutely crushes.
It was drafted and maindecked in each draft for my first 4, and it sucked. It dealt a total of less than 10 damage in all 4 drafts, combined, and was usually a completely dead card.
While possible, stastically speaking, this type of performance is REALLY rare.
In 4 drafts, 4 matches each, 2.5 games per match, you play around 40 games. It's in your opening hand 7.5/40 of the time, and does on average 4.5 damage each time = 33.75 damage expected over 4 drafts. The standard deviation is also quite small, so less than 10 damage over 4 drafts is very unlikely.
The more interesting question about Vise is whether or not you want such a swingy, powerful card in your cube since it does so much T1 on the play and so little otherwise. If you want the strongest cards ever in your cube, Vise is a no brainer.
Also, The Rack is not cubeworthy. It has absolutely no presence early game, and late game, wouldn't you rather just have a real finisher?
It's plays like a Lava Spike with whatever the opposite of miracle is. If you support prison or LD archetypes, then it is an interesting card. Simply as an aggro card, we found it way too narrow, extremely luck based, and not nearly as powerful as expected.
It was only really powerful on the play versus control on turn one, which ended up being less than 10% of the time you drew it.
I don't see the appeal of making my deck less flexible in exchange for making what is already my best matchup slightly better.
2/1s for 1 have exactly the same "problem" of being awesome T1 and losing value very quick. A Goblin Guide on T5 is just as bad as a Black Vise on T5, but that shouldn't stop anyone from running either.
It's an unblockable aggro onedrop and should be treated like one. That also means accepting its downsides like you would for any creature onedrop.
Both of these are just completely untrue. Goblin Guide will very often do at least 2 damage when played on T5, will require further blockers or less attackers by the opponent, can carry equips, can be pumped, can combine with burn to be removal, and can block and gang block. This is why it is not a Lava Spike. Vise has no where NEAR the versatility of a creature, even one as seemingly straightforward as Goblin Guide.
Comparing this to Lava Spike is so wrong. Black Vise routinely does 8 or more damage for us.
That's great. Lava Spike always does three, and never does zero, and is just as good on the draw, and is good versus aggro, and is good versus midrange, and is good if they have a mox/lotus/sol Ring in hand. So I guess I shouldn't compare the two...
I get the feeling that when Vise does 8 damage your aggro deck was going to roll them anyway, right? I mean, they were obviously ill prepared to stop a quick rush that featured a good one drop. I suppose they could have had a bunch of creature removal and not artifact removal, but again it all seems like best case scenario talk, which is only on the play versus aggros best matchup and the card in hand T1.
It's always been much better than a Lava Spike for us. I usually expect 4-5 damage out of it, and it can completely dominate a game sometimes. Plus, as an artifact (and not a creature) it's harder to remove, harder to prevent the damage from getting through and has some other cool artifact related interactions. And it can go in any deck. And there's a lot of cards/strategies in the cube that can increase its potential too. I think Lava Spike is a poor comparison that doesn't accurately describe what you get from Vise.
That's great. Lava Spike always does three, and never does zero, and is just as good on the draw, and is good versus aggro, and is good versus midrange, and is good if they have a mox/lotus/sol Ring in hand. So I guess I shouldn't compare the two...
But the average from Black Vise is more than three. With an aggro deck assuming you are trying to end the game by turn 4, you are only drawing 4 cards. So 2/3 of the cards you have access to, you had access to on turn 1. What I'm trying to say is that this card's power curve is exactly what an aggro deck wants. Very high in the first couple turns, very low later. It has the power curve of 1-drop creature, just exaggerated and with some other upsides.
I get the feeling that when Vise does 8 damage your aggro deck was going to roll them anyway, right? I mean, they were obviously ill prepared to stop a quick rush that featured a good one drop. I suppose they could have had a bunch of creature removal and not artifact removal, but again it all seems like best case scenario talk, which is only on the play versus aggros best matchup and the card in hand T1.
Not really. In fact I have had multiple games where I wasn't able to push through damage any other way because they had so many creature answers but Black Vise did like 12 damage. Some games I lose, some games I win, but having a creature or a lava spike in those situations would have sealed my defeat. Part of the upside of Black Vise is that if your opponent was relying on sweepers to stop you, you're still going to get that damage in from Black Vise. And again, it's fine for aggro to rely on cards being in the opening hand to be good because most of the cards they will play were in their opening hand.
Black Vise is part of a small and important package of "reach" cards that Aggro usually needs to seal the game. I can't imagine getting rid of it in even the smallest of lists.
I had Black Vise
One of my drafters, arguably the best player in our group, with a 1900 rating on MTGO and who usually wins 3 or 4 of the 4 prerelease events at his LGS per prerelease weekend, noted that The Rack in its place would have dealt quite a bit more damage, and would have dealt damage every single time it was drawn, except in the control matchup.
What was the point in telling us his ratings and win rates? Will that convince me more of an opinion I dont agree with. You could of just said "A player that I respect" or something of the like. Should I post my mtgo rating before every arguement I make for now on in my life?
It's one of my pet peeves too. Let the quality of the content speak for itself. Your ratings, and non-cube accomplishments don't add value to your cube-related opinions. A player that has won a Limited pro tour might be the worst person in the world to seek Vintage advice from. And after listening to a lot of pro players' opinions on the cube, this seems to be more and more true.
Our group adores black vise. One of my favorite plays is T1 vise, T2 Goblin Guide. Making my opponent dread drawing a land off of Goblin Guide makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
In our group it either fizzles out and does very little, or completely crushes. Normally I don't like that kind of variance (jace 3.0), but on a colorless 1 drop it's absolutely worth it, IMO. The games where it crushes aren't even usually games where the opponent can't play his/her cards, but more games against the decks that are playing unfortunate cards against vise: Bouncelands, Kodama's reach/cultivate/Krosan tusker, phyrexian arena, Bob, any blue draw, Crystal Shard/erratic portal, etc. It creates awkward situations for those sorts of decks because your opponent often has to risk the incidental extra damage from those spells to draw/ramp into something to answer vise or race you. Especially in an unpowered cube like mine, these situations occur often enough to cement vise's slot.
Worst case scenario, they easily ignore your 1 mana investment.
If it lava spikes and then sputters, that sucks, too.
If it lava spikes and eats artifact removal, it's worth it.
If it lava axes and sputters, it's worth it.
If it does anymore, it's the MVP, and I've seen it hit a very high ceiling even in good, back-and-forth sucker-punch games. .
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The card has inconsistencies for sure. But it's one of the few cards that's either an all-star or a dud that I'm actually comfortable running, for two reasons. 1) the BCS is beyond broken, and 2) the mana investment is super low. A card with these kinds of inconsistencies is a much harder pill to swallow when you compound those problems with high mana costs and limited deck options. But a card with a cost of 1 that can be auto-included in every aggressive deck is fine with me. I think it's also important to note that classic draw-go control decks still prevail in my cube. In lists where that decktype is dead, this card loses stock. We also play a lot of slower CA-centric midrange builds that hold a high card count for a longer period of time, and against those decks, aggro can get value from Vise where a 2-power 1-drop might struggle. Because it can help aggro out in that poorer matchup, it brings even more value to our drafts. A B/x midrange build that focusses around removal and generating value from Nekrataals can really be punished by a T1 Vise. It's nice for aggro to have an effective tool at punishing midrange decks with a high percentage of creature removal, because they usually get rolled by those kinds of decks.
Black Vise is part of a small and important package of "reach" cards that Aggro usually needs to seal the game. I can't imagine getting rid of it in even the smallest of lists.
Except that I don't run it, and my aggro decks are just fine. I've also been trying to find a Beta Ankh of Mishra (to no avail), so I don't run that 'important' aggro card either. I'm actually more excited about adding Ankh than Black Vise (of which I have a foil laying around somewhere), so I guess I'm saying that it is possible to make aggro work w/o it. I think the post about draw 7's is vital, and gives you a chance to get value after turn 1 with it. The more you run (especially something like Wheel of Fortune, which can go in an aggro deck that runs said Vice), the better it is.
I suppose what I'm saying is that I feel I can live without it at this point. This might entirely change if I start running it, to be fair.
And as far as ratings and Cubing go, there certainly is no direct corollary between the two, but here's the thing: some people who are good at competitive Magic just GET Magic. They understand it, know how it works, and can translate that to any and all formats so they have pretty good tournament success. I'm lucky enough to have a good friend who is like that, and his input over the years has helped to shape my Cube and philosophy. He isn't always right, but I'm far better off with his input than without it.
I'm far better off with his input than without it.
No doubt. But his advice is good because the advice is good. People can "get" what makes a cube card good without being a baller competitive Magic player. I don't think that posting someones stats and accomplishments suddenly makes their opinion more valid for evaluating all things cube. I too have a confidant in my playgroup that's a stellar Magic player (you probably know him, Anthony). But even he admits that the things that make him a good competitive Magic player don't translate to cube design. It makes him better at drafting the cube and crushing worse players inside the individual games, but that doesn't mean that he could design or augment a cube list better than anyone else can.
Thanks for all the advice and opinions guys. I think I'll find a spot for it back in the cube.
As far as reading you my friends resume, IDK, not realy that big a deal IMHO. I wasn't saying his opinion should be gospel, but I wanted to make it clear not only that I respected his opinion, but also why.
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"A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men."
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The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
And as far as ratings and Cubing go, there certainly is no direct corollary between the two, but here's the thing: some people who are good at competitive Magic just GET Magic. They understand it, know how it works, and can translate that to any and all formats so they have pretty good tournament success. I'm lucky enough to have a good friend who is like that, and his input over the years has helped to shape my Cube and philosophy. He isn't always right, but I'm far better off with his input than without it.
-AA
Just like MTGO cube? I prefer many people list on this forum on this comparison to them. And we aren't working for wizards.
Just like MTGO cube? I prefer many people list on this forum on this comparison to them. And we aren't working for wizards.
Well, my friend isn't working for Wizards and neither am I And while there are those who work for them that are former tournament successes, I firmly believe that being on the inside for so long changes the way you look at Magic cards and evaluations.
Please remember that I said 'some', also. I think there are actually precious few people who actually understand Magic as deeply as this friend.
I think there is probably some correlation between play skill and cube design ability (you know, because intelligencitude) but that is all but meaningless for our purposes.
My friend eats a lot of food, and is really good at eating it. So when I'm making a cake, I always ask for his opinion on what ingredients to make it with.
But anyways, Killane's comment was harmless. I agree with the fact that being a good player doesn't make you a good designer (though this doesn't mean because you're a good player you can't be a good designer either), but he wasn't rubbing the information in our faces, or stating that this man's word should be taken by us as absolute. Maybe he just felt the need to validate his question so that it would be taken seriously instead of brushed off? These forums can be a little intimidating at times.
Nobody was attacking Killane, simply suggesting that the pre-comment validation isn't necessary for asking questions. A good player can dislike a card for the cube and a less accomplished player can like one, and neither opinion is made more or less relevant by their background. Cube is a different beast.
It was drafted and maindecked in each draft for my first 4, and it sucked. It dealt a total of less than 10 damage in all 4 drafts, combined, and was usually a completely dead card.
One of my drafters, arguably the best player in our group, with a 1900 rating on MTGO and who usually wins 3 or 4 of the 4 prerelease events at his LGS per prerelease weekend, noted that The Rack in its place would have dealt quite a bit more damage, and would have dealt damage every single time it was drawn, except in the control matchup.
My argument for Vice is thatit a card you want for control.
I've noticed a wide variety of opinions about this card, from 360 staple to very cuttable. I've never seen The Rack played at all in cube, but I observed that even our Rampish and controllish decks tended to spend quite a few turns at 3 or fewer cards rather than 5+.
Thoughts?
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
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It's absurd when your opponent can't play anything, but at that point it doesn't matter much what you play as an aggro deck as long it puts on any pressure at all.
I might actually be able to accept that The Rack will often be the better play, since it isn't played when you actually want to be playing creatures, cannot be gotten out of by doing what you want to be doing in the first place (excepting drawing cards), and actually has synergy with discard.
In any case, Black Vise will soon be leaving our cube again. I think it's a 500+ card, personally.
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If you are on the play, and opponent hits their 1 drop, 2 drop, and 3 drop, Vise does 6 damage. If you are on the draw, and they also hit their 1 drop, 2 drop, Vise does 3 damage. So you expect it to do at least 4.5 damage each time it is in your opening hand, and it has upside. This is insane for a colorless 1 drop. Moreover, it really dominates certain matchups -- eg. control usually misses one drops (or plays 1 drops that draw them cards), doesn't want to play proactively, and wants to draw more cards; all of these scenarios Vise absolutely crushes.
While possible, stastically speaking, this type of performance is REALLY rare.
In 4 drafts, 4 matches each, 2.5 games per match, you play around 40 games. It's in your opening hand 7.5/40 of the time, and does on average 4.5 damage each time = 33.75 damage expected over 4 drafts. The standard deviation is also quite small, so less than 10 damage over 4 drafts is very unlikely.
The more interesting question about Vise is whether or not you want such a swingy, powerful card in your cube since it does so much T1 on the play and so little otherwise. If you want the strongest cards ever in your cube, Vise is a no brainer.
Also, The Rack is not cubeworthy. It has absolutely no presence early game, and late game, wouldn't you rather just have a real finisher?
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It was only really powerful on the play versus control on turn one, which ended up being less than 10% of the time you drew it.
I don't see the appeal of making my deck less flexible in exchange for making what is already my best matchup slightly better.
L2 Judge
Both of these are just completely untrue. Goblin Guide will very often do at least 2 damage when played on T5, will require further blockers or less attackers by the opponent, can carry equips, can be pumped, can combine with burn to be removal, and can block and gang block. This is why it is not a Lava Spike. Vise has no where NEAR the versatility of a creature, even one as seemingly straightforward as Goblin Guide.
That's great. Lava Spike always does three, and never does zero, and is just as good on the draw, and is good versus aggro, and is good versus midrange, and is good if they have a mox/lotus/sol Ring in hand. So I guess I shouldn't compare the two...
I get the feeling that when Vise does 8 damage your aggro deck was going to roll them anyway, right? I mean, they were obviously ill prepared to stop a quick rush that featured a good one drop. I suppose they could have had a bunch of creature removal and not artifact removal, but again it all seems like best case scenario talk, which is only on the play versus aggros best matchup and the card in hand T1.
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This is a very good post in favor of Black Vise (and matters way more if you are powered, obviously).
-AA
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But the average from Black Vise is more than three. With an aggro deck assuming you are trying to end the game by turn 4, you are only drawing 4 cards. So 2/3 of the cards you have access to, you had access to on turn 1. What I'm trying to say is that this card's power curve is exactly what an aggro deck wants. Very high in the first couple turns, very low later. It has the power curve of 1-drop creature, just exaggerated and with some other upsides.
Not really. In fact I have had multiple games where I wasn't able to push through damage any other way because they had so many creature answers but Black Vise did like 12 damage. Some games I lose, some games I win, but having a creature or a lava spike in those situations would have sealed my defeat. Part of the upside of Black Vise is that if your opponent was relying on sweepers to stop you, you're still going to get that damage in from Black Vise. And again, it's fine for aggro to rely on cards being in the opening hand to be good because most of the cards they will play were in their opening hand.
L2 Judge
What was the point in telling us his ratings and win rates? Will that convince me more of an opinion I dont agree with. You could of just said "A player that I respect" or something of the like. Should I post my mtgo rating before every arguement I make for now on in my life?
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In our group it either fizzles out and does very little, or completely crushes. Normally I don't like that kind of variance (jace 3.0), but on a colorless 1 drop it's absolutely worth it, IMO. The games where it crushes aren't even usually games where the opponent can't play his/her cards, but more games against the decks that are playing unfortunate cards against vise: Bouncelands, Kodama's reach/cultivate/Krosan tusker, phyrexian arena, Bob, any blue draw, Crystal Shard/erratic portal, etc. It creates awkward situations for those sorts of decks because your opponent often has to risk the incidental extra damage from those spells to draw/ramp into something to answer vise or race you. Especially in an unpowered cube like mine, these situations occur often enough to cement vise's slot.
Worst case scenario, they easily ignore your 1 mana investment.
If it lava spikes and then sputters, that sucks, too.
If it lava spikes and eats artifact removal, it's worth it.
If it lava axes and sputters, it's worth it.
If it does anymore, it's the MVP, and I've seen it hit a very high ceiling even in good, back-and-forth sucker-punch games. .
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Except that I don't run it, and my aggro decks are just fine. I've also been trying to find a Beta Ankh of Mishra (to no avail), so I don't run that 'important' aggro card either. I'm actually more excited about adding Ankh than Black Vise (of which I have a foil laying around somewhere), so I guess I'm saying that it is possible to make aggro work w/o it. I think the post about draw 7's is vital, and gives you a chance to get value after turn 1 with it. The more you run (especially something like Wheel of Fortune, which can go in an aggro deck that runs said Vice), the better it is.
I suppose what I'm saying is that I feel I can live without it at this point. This might entirely change if I start running it, to be fair.
And as far as ratings and Cubing go, there certainly is no direct corollary between the two, but here's the thing: some people who are good at competitive Magic just GET Magic. They understand it, know how it works, and can translate that to any and all formats so they have pretty good tournament success. I'm lucky enough to have a good friend who is like that, and his input over the years has helped to shape my Cube and philosophy. He isn't always right, but I'm far better off with his input than without it.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
No doubt. But his advice is good because the advice is good. People can "get" what makes a cube card good without being a baller competitive Magic player. I don't think that posting someones stats and accomplishments suddenly makes their opinion more valid for evaluating all things cube. I too have a confidant in my playgroup that's a stellar Magic player (you probably know him, Anthony). But even he admits that the things that make him a good competitive Magic player don't translate to cube design. It makes him better at drafting the cube and crushing worse players inside the individual games, but that doesn't mean that he could design or augment a cube list better than anyone else can.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
As far as reading you my friends resume, IDK, not realy that big a deal IMHO. I wasn't saying his opinion should be gospel, but I wanted to make it clear not only that I respected his opinion, but also why.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Just like MTGO cube? I prefer many people list on this forum on this comparison to them. And we aren't working for wizards.
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
Well, my friend isn't working for Wizards and neither am I And while there are those who work for them that are former tournament successes, I firmly believe that being on the inside for so long changes the way you look at Magic cards and evaluations.
Please remember that I said 'some', also. I think there are actually precious few people who actually understand Magic as deeply as this friend.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
But anyways, Killane's comment was harmless. I agree with the fact that being a good player doesn't make you a good designer (though this doesn't mean because you're a good player you can't be a good designer either), but he wasn't rubbing the information in our faces, or stating that this man's word should be taken by us as absolute. Maybe he just felt the need to validate his question so that it would be taken seriously instead of brushed off? These forums can be a little intimidating at times.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!