If I ran three colors other then Bolas I would include this card as my RWU card. I think this card can easily be seen as a good izzet card with a huge unwieldy kicker.
My current Izzet Suite is
1.Ral Zarek
2.Fire and Ice
3.Izzet Charm <- I feel Catch's strength is about here
4.Electrolyze
5.Izzet signet
A lot of people run a 5 mana 2/2 with haste for this effect, so a 3 mana variant is welcome in my cube. Release will almost always not be symmetrical and in an America deck can be very valuable, however the sheer majority I think this card will be played as Catch makes me want to view it as only an izzet card.
One more thing is that I feel that Izzet needs some of the flashiness and "Ooh" moments the other guilds have. Ral and Catch both really provide this, whereas the other cards are simply good cards.
Edit: My bad Zealous conscripts is a 3/3, but the point still stands.
Zealous Conscripts is a 3/3, not a 2/2, and some of its value is from being a creature rather than a spell.
But... I agree that this card is really good. There aren't many Threaten effects that are cubeable outside of Conscripts and Sarkhan, and only one can hit permanents.
I have Prophetic Bolt in my Izzet section that I prefer to Electrolyze and Signet, and maybe to this as well. It's close though. If I ran 3 colour cards then this would be a slamdunk. The Release side actually isn't bad at all either. I would be pretty happy to Bloodbraid Elf into it.
I think that catch is significantly worse than where you've placed it. I'd say that the charm, Electrolyze, the signet, prophetic bolt are all better than Catch. I also prefer Jilt, which seems like a better tempo card. There are probably a bunch of other beter cards, but that should only matter if you have a gigantic cube. Also, Prophetic Bolt always feels pretty "ooh" to me - that card is a blowout.
Zealous Conscripts is a lot better than this card for cube. First off, it has more damage output (it's a 3/3 by the way), it can be abused very easily - Crystal shard/blink effects as well as cards like recurring nightmare. The cost is the only downside, but conscripts is monocolour which is a huge plus in competing for a cube slot. Costing 5 and not 3 isn't as much of a huge deal as it normally is, because you often cast either card at the end of the game to attack for lethal.
Also note that of all the colours to pair red with, blue is the one which least wants a threaten effect. I'd probably play Mark of Mutiny before this card.
A lot of people run a 5 mana 2/2 with haste for this effect, so a 3 mana variant is welcome in my cube.
Well, it's also only 1-color, and infinitely more abusable, and comes with a lot more value strapped to it. And as others have said, he's a 3/3.
I don't think taking Threaten (which is a card that nobody uses) and making it harder to cast makes it worth the added versatility of hitting noncreature threats with it. I think it needed to be an instant at the very least. I don't think it's better than any of the solid Izzet options that are out there.
And then this card would be right after those, IMO. Somewhere in the neighborhood of Jilt, Desolate Lightnouse and all the subpar Izzet creature options.
But this is not a Threaten effect, or Zealous Conscripts without a body. It can steal ANY permanent--which means it can really screw up your opponent's planeswalkers (particularly if they have enough loyalty to go ultimate). You can steal anything--a Sword, their Moat so you can finally attack with your army.
It might not be cubable, but it's more flexible than you're giving it credit for.
But this is not a Threaten effect, or Zealous Conscripts without a body. It can steal ANY permanent--which means it can really screw up your opponent's planeswalkers (particularly if they have enough loyalty to go ultimate). You can steal anything--a Sword, their Moat so you can finally attack with your army.
It might not be cubable, but it's more flexible than you're giving it credit for.
First of all, Zealous Conscripts also hits any permanent.
Second of all, I included the added flexibility into my evaluation. It doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's justifies a multicolor cost.
It's a Word of Seizing ...at sorcery speed, without split second, that's two colors.
I don't think taking Threaten (which is a card that nobody uses) and making it harder to cast makes it worth the added versatility of hitting noncreature threats with it.
It's hard to say for sure whether this is the case. I certainly would not play Conscripts if it read 'target creature' rather than 'target permanent'. I'm often stealing 'walkers with it, even if it's normal for a creature to be the best target the majority of the time. So I think that change from creature to any permanent type carries a significant amount of value, albeit hard to quantify in terms of what mana it's worth. Probably ~1. Would people cube a 3/3 ZC for 3R that only hit creatures? Almost certainly is my guess.
I like it better, on power level, than Turn//Burn. The fact that it's actually a good Threatenesque effect adds weight to it for sure, as everyone loves to play with those effects and they can provide a large amount of damage. So for that reason, I rate it above Izzet Signet and Electrolyze too. We've got loads of those effects and not many of these ones.
Ultimately though that means it misses my cube until I decide to add a proper Wild Nacatl section in. I'm currently half-assing it with the Cat Warrior in green.
It's a Word of Seizing ...at sorcery speed, without split second, that's two colors.
Yeah, but 3 mana versus 5 mana is a long comparison!
I certainly would not play Conscripts if it read 'target creature' rather than 'target permanent'.
For me, this makes very little difference. ZC is good because it's a threaten strapped to a creature. The fact that it has Seizing wording is an added bonus. 9 times out of 10, I'm hitting a creature with it anyways.
Quote from Goodking »
Yeah, but 3 mana versus 5 mana is a long comparison!
With what you're giving up, I think they're really comparable. Instant to Sorcery = 1. Loss of Split Second = ~1/2 a mana. Change from mono-colored to gold = 1. So really, I think this card is worth roughly 2.5 mana by comparison. Since that can't be done, I think it's accurate to describe it as comparable to Word of Seizing ...which is a card I have no desire to cube anyways.
There are very, very few gold cards whose mono-coloured equivalents I would run with an extra tax of one. Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, and Deed are probably the only ones. All the others go from great to average or terrible. So it's not this simple of an equation, unfortunately.
Other than that, I get what you're saying. If you use ZC on a creature 9 times out of 10, it's extremely obvious why you won't play a more difficultly costed Act of Treason to have a better scenario 1 time out of ten. That's not the case for us. I think we target a non-creature perhaps 3-4 times out of ten, which makes the ability to target lands, artifacts and 'walkers fairly good.
There are very, very few gold cards whose mono-coloured equivalents I would run with an extra tax of one.
That's not necessarily what I meant. When they make a gold card that has an effect commonly found on monocolored cards, they will make it cheaper by one overall mana in order to justify the harder to cast nature of it being a gold spell now. Think Wind Drake vs Gaea's Skyfolk. I think that when I see a gold card that does what a mono-colored card can do, I expect to see a discount on it. Of probably around 1 on average.
And to respond to your comment, there are a lot of gold cards that would be good enough as mono colored cards by increasing their cost by one mana.
But this is not a Threaten effect, or Zealous Conscripts without a body. It can steal ANY permanent--which means it can really screw up your opponent's planeswalkers (particularly if they have enough loyalty to go ultimate). You can steal anything--a Sword, their Moat so you can finally attack with your army.
It might not be cubable, but it's more flexible than you're giving it credit for.
Stealing a sword means you need to spend an extra two mana to get the sword for a single swing and then cost them two mana. Hardly gamebreaking. Stealing a Moat does zip as Moat's effect is independent of who controls it.
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That's not necessarily what I meant. When they make a gold card that has an effect commonly found on monocolored cards, they will make it cheaper by one overall mana in order to justify the harder to cast nature of it being a gold spell now. Think Wind Drake vs Gaea's Skyfolk. I think that when I see a gold card that does what a mono-colored card can do, I expect to see a discount on it. Of probably around 1 on average.
This may be true with simple examples, but the fact that a card can come down a whole turn earlier is a more important consideration than a simple increase in cost complexity.
A 1 reduction is not a totally unreasonable expectation for a starting baseline, but a rather oversimplified one. The discount may be more in certain cases (most notably, Vindicate) or non-existent where making the card cheaper would cause it to become too strong. In the latter cases, adding a small advantage is the most elegant solution to make the card worthy as a gold card.
But this is a huge digression from the card topic, and you've already done a good job of explaining why the effect isn't highly valued by your group, so we needn't delve too far into the finer points of design.
And to respond to your comment, there are a lot of gold cards that would be good enough as mono colored cards by increasing their cost by one mana.
This is not the case for us sadly, although I would consider adding Detention Sphere, and possibly Dreadbore, to the list I posted earlier.
I'd say in my cube its about a 50/50 between creature and noncreature permanents with Zealous conscripts, and 1UR compared to 3RR is a lot easier to cast. That as well as RU and RUW being mostly control decks, allowing them to keep mana up or cast other spells in the same turn as Catch, as well as being able to be cast earlier. Maybe, its my cube construction or play style, or maybe its because a smaller cube has a higher density of noncreature permanents that stealing for one turn can really mater, but catch seems pretty good to me.
@goodking: are you impressed with prophetic bolt's impact? I always found it as my most lackluster Izzet card, which is why I easily knocked it off my list and put Ral at number 1.
I
@goodking: are you impressed with prophetic bolt's impact? I always found it as my most lackluster Izzet card, which is why I easily knocked it off my list and put Ral at number 1.
4 Instant speed damage and the best card among my top 4 is fantastic in any game state, and always seems to be a strong play. It's guaranteed card advantage and selection. I like it a lot and I won't cut it unless we get an even sicker Izzet card. I think it's slightly better than Catch.
I agree with Goodking about Prophetic Bolt. It's a big-game spell. Killing a big creature or planeswalker and immediately Impulsing into another high-impact spell is just about the perfect thing to do at the end of your curve.
A 1 reduction is not a totally unreasonable expectation for a starting baseline, but a rather oversimplified one.
It's definitely simplified. I think it depends on what the baseline card is before modifying it. If it's a card I want to cube, then it doesn't have to be cheaper. It just usually needs to be slightly better in some way. But if it's a card I don't want to cube, it usually needs to be accompanied by either a full card's worth of value, or a mana cost reduction.
The best example I can give is something like Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict vs Oblivion Ring and Day of Judgment. Sphere is good because it exchanges a harder to cast drawback for a minor upside. Making it fair by comparison to an already cubeable card. Whereas Catch is essentially adding the same harder to cast drawback for a slight increase in value, but it's doing it with a baseline card of Threaten instead of a baseline card of Oblivion Ring. That probably makes more sense than the Word of Seizing comparison did.
I'm going to call it a he. Perhaps he/she is struggling with their sexual identity. I think it's unfair to assume that simply because you see breasts on the card that they'll want to be referred to as a she. Shame. Shame on you for jumping to conclusions and making your own assumptions, Nof.
I'm going to call it a he. Perhaps he/she is struggling with their sexual identity. I think it's unfair to assume that simply because you see breasts on the card that they'll want to be referred to as a she. Shame. Shame on you for jumping to conclusions and making your own assumptions, Nof.
Well, he's got a lovely shape to him.
Also, clearly the guy(s) are the 3/3 and the woman is the one snatching everything
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Innistrad would be a terrible place for a transgendered person. Identity changes and transformations are often met with hostility and violence.
To be fair, that is because most of those transformations end with screaming and bloodshed. Actually, this world might be better off if trans people could change into werewolves when harassed.
In any case, I think the Catch side of this cards is OK but nothing to get too excited about. The Release side is not for cube. I'd have to be running a very large cube for this to make it in.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I apologize. I meant no offense. I was just looking for a silly name for a secretly transgender werewolf. Anyways, the whole joke wasn't worth it after all, so please ignore. Honestly didn't mean to offend anyone, hope nobody was.
I have edited my card title, if you wouldn't mind editing the quote. Avoid all the offensive terminology altogether if possible.
If I ran three colors other then Bolas I would include this card as my RWU card. I think this card can easily be seen as a good izzet card with a huge unwieldy kicker.
My current Izzet Suite is
1.Ral Zarek
2.Fire and Ice
3.Izzet Charm <- I feel Catch's strength is about here
4.Electrolyze
5.Izzet signet
A lot of people run a 5 mana 2/2 with haste for this effect, so a 3 mana variant is welcome in my cube. Release will almost always not be symmetrical and in an America deck can be very valuable, however the sheer majority I think this card will be played as Catch makes me want to view it as only an izzet card.
One more thing is that I feel that Izzet needs some of the flashiness and "Ooh" moments the other guilds have. Ral and Catch both really provide this, whereas the other cards are simply good cards.
Edit: My bad Zealous conscripts is a 3/3, but the point still stands.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
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But... I agree that this card is really good. There aren't many Threaten effects that are cubeable outside of Conscripts and Sarkhan, and only one can hit permanents.
I have Prophetic Bolt in my Izzet section that I prefer to Electrolyze and Signet, and maybe to this as well. It's close though. If I ran 3 colour cards then this would be a slamdunk. The Release side actually isn't bad at all either. I would be pretty happy to Bloodbraid Elf into it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Zealous Conscripts is a lot better than this card for cube. First off, it has more damage output (it's a 3/3 by the way), it can be abused very easily - Crystal shard/blink effects as well as cards like recurring nightmare. The cost is the only downside, but conscripts is monocolour which is a huge plus in competing for a cube slot. Costing 5 and not 3 isn't as much of a huge deal as it normally is, because you often cast either card at the end of the game to attack for lethal.
Also note that of all the colours to pair red with, blue is the one which least wants a threaten effect. I'd probably play Mark of Mutiny before this card.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
Well, it's also only 1-color, and infinitely more abusable, and comes with a lot more value strapped to it. And as others have said, he's a 3/3.
I don't think taking Threaten (which is a card that nobody uses) and making it harder to cast makes it worth the added versatility of hitting noncreature threats with it. I think it needed to be an instant at the very least. I don't think it's better than any of the solid Izzet options that are out there.
2 Fire // Ice
3 Izzet Charm
4 Prophetic Bolt
5 Electrolyze
6 Izzet Signet
7 Turn // Burn
And then this card would be right after those, IMO. Somewhere in the neighborhood of Jilt, Desolate Lightnouse and all the subpar Izzet creature options.
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It might not be cubable, but it's more flexible than you're giving it credit for.
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First of all, Zealous Conscripts also hits any permanent.
Second of all, I included the added flexibility into my evaluation. It doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's justifies a multicolor cost.
It's a Word of Seizing ...at sorcery speed, without split second, that's two colors.
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It's hard to say for sure whether this is the case. I certainly would not play Conscripts if it read 'target creature' rather than 'target permanent'. I'm often stealing 'walkers with it, even if it's normal for a creature to be the best target the majority of the time. So I think that change from creature to any permanent type carries a significant amount of value, albeit hard to quantify in terms of what mana it's worth. Probably ~1. Would people cube a 3/3 ZC for 3R that only hit creatures? Almost certainly is my guess.
I like it better, on power level, than Turn//Burn. The fact that it's actually a good Threatenesque effect adds weight to it for sure, as everyone loves to play with those effects and they can provide a large amount of damage. So for that reason, I rate it above Izzet Signet and Electrolyze too. We've got loads of those effects and not many of these ones.
Ultimately though that means it misses my cube until I decide to add a proper Wild Nacatl section in. I'm currently half-assing it with the Cat Warrior in green.
Yeah, but 3 mana versus 5 mana is a long comparison!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
But... what? I've resolved that card fifty times without ever actually reading the damned thing.
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For me, this makes very little difference. ZC is good because it's a threaten strapped to a creature. The fact that it has Seizing wording is an added bonus. 9 times out of 10, I'm hitting a creature with it anyways.
With what you're giving up, I think they're really comparable. Instant to Sorcery = 1. Loss of Split Second = ~1/2 a mana. Change from mono-colored to gold = 1. So really, I think this card is worth roughly 2.5 mana by comparison. Since that can't be done, I think it's accurate to describe it as comparable to Word of Seizing ...which is a card I have no desire to cube anyways.
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There are very, very few gold cards whose mono-coloured equivalents I would run with an extra tax of one. Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, and Deed are probably the only ones. All the others go from great to average or terrible. So it's not this simple of an equation, unfortunately.
Other than that, I get what you're saying. If you use ZC on a creature 9 times out of 10, it's extremely obvious why you won't play a more difficultly costed Act of Treason to have a better scenario 1 time out of ten. That's not the case for us. I think we target a non-creature perhaps 3-4 times out of ten, which makes the ability to target lands, artifacts and 'walkers fairly good.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That's not necessarily what I meant. When they make a gold card that has an effect commonly found on monocolored cards, they will make it cheaper by one overall mana in order to justify the harder to cast nature of it being a gold spell now. Think Wind Drake vs Gaea's Skyfolk. I think that when I see a gold card that does what a mono-colored card can do, I expect to see a discount on it. Of probably around 1 on average.
And to respond to your comment, there are a lot of gold cards that would be good enough as mono colored cards by increasing their cost by one mana.
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Stealing a sword means you need to spend an extra two mana to get the sword for a single swing and then cost them two mana. Hardly gamebreaking. Stealing a Moat does zip as Moat's effect is independent of who controls it.
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This may be true with simple examples, but the fact that a card can come down a whole turn earlier is a more important consideration than a simple increase in cost complexity.
A 1 reduction is not a totally unreasonable expectation for a starting baseline, but a rather oversimplified one. The discount may be more in certain cases (most notably, Vindicate) or non-existent where making the card cheaper would cause it to become too strong. In the latter cases, adding a small advantage is the most elegant solution to make the card worthy as a gold card.
But this is a huge digression from the card topic, and you've already done a good job of explaining why the effect isn't highly valued by your group, so we needn't delve too far into the finer points of design.
This is not the case for us sadly, although I would consider adding Detention Sphere, and possibly Dreadbore, to the list I posted earlier.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
@goodking: are you impressed with prophetic bolt's impact? I always found it as my most lackluster Izzet card, which is why I easily knocked it off my list and put Ral at number 1.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
4 Instant speed damage and the best card among my top 4 is fantastic in any game state, and always seems to be a strong play. It's guaranteed card advantage and selection. I like it a lot and I won't cut it unless we get an even sicker Izzet card. I think it's slightly better than Catch.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
You wouldn't play a 4B Sorin or a 4R Ajani V? I'd cube both of those cards.
It's definitely simplified. I think it depends on what the baseline card is before modifying it. If it's a card I want to cube, then it doesn't have to be cheaper. It just usually needs to be slightly better in some way. But if it's a card I don't want to cube, it usually needs to be accompanied by either a full card's worth of value, or a mana cost reduction.
The best example I can give is something like Detention Sphere and Supreme Verdict vs Oblivion Ring and Day of Judgment. Sphere is good because it exchanges a harder to cast drawback for a minor upside. Making it fair by comparison to an already cubeable card. Whereas Catch is essentially adding the same harder to cast drawback for a slight increase in value, but it's doing it with a baseline card of Threaten instead of a baseline card of Oblivion Ring. That probably makes more sense than the Word of Seizing comparison did.
Hope that explains it better than I did above.
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Well, he's got a lovely shape to him.
Also, clearly the guy(s) are the 3/3 and the woman is the one snatching everything
Could be a man in a disguise. Dressing in drag to catch the enemy off-guard.
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To be fair, that is because most of those transformations end with screaming and bloodshed. Actually, this world might be better off if trans people could change into werewolves when harassed.
In any case, I think the Catch side of this cards is OK but nothing to get too excited about. The Release side is not for cube. I'd have to be running a very large cube for this to make it in.
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I have edited my card title, if you wouldn't mind editing the quote. Avoid all the offensive terminology altogether if possible.
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