I haven't tested Leveler yet, but I've heard good things. Still, I think the death trigger for Idol / Titan are generally much more useful than Leveler's unearth ability, especially with Sneak Attack.
I just added Narset, Parter of Veils and Sheoldred, the Apocalypse to my Legacy+ cube, and I'm thinking of adding either Timetwister or Time Spiral to go with those. I don't support Storm, and I'm already running Wheel of Fortune. Also running Memory Jar to pair with Sheoldred. I've been running Wheel mostly for Red Aggro support, but also for green ramp and artifact ramp support, so I'm thinking Timetwister since that fits into UR Aggro. But I also don't know if Timetwister is too powerful for an otherwise unpowered cube. Wheel of Fortune has been fine, but I don't know if Timetwister is any different either due to being blue or due to the shuffle letting you redraw powerful spells that were in the graveyard. I think before Leovold/Narset/Hullbreacher, the consensus was Time Spiral > Timetwister, but I don't know if that's changed now.
I think Timetwister / Wheel of Fortune are far and away the best wheel effects, especially for Hullbreacher type effects.
Any of those 2 + any Hullbreacher effect is generally a better A + B combo than Kiki-Twin, IMO. The individual parts of the draw 7 combo are generally better cards than Kiki-Twin's pieces, and 3-cmc draw 7 + Hullbreacher is cheaper than any Kiki-Twin combination.
Quote from jamis »
But I also don't know if Timetwister is too powerful for an otherwise unpowered cube. Wheel of Fortune has been fine, but I don't know if Timetwister is any different either due to being blue or due to the shuffle letting you redraw powerful spells that were in the graveyard.
They're both pretty equal, IMO. The difference between discard / shuffling hand and graveyard doesn't make one better or worse than the other in any significant way. I don't see any reason to run one but not the other aside from $$$.
Thanks, that makes sense. Wheel was fine without Narset, but now that I've added Narset, it might be a banwatch. I think based on that, I'll try adding Timetwister, and then might need to either ban Timetwister+Wheel or Timetwister+Narset. I'll be running Timetwister as a proxy, so there's no real monetary reason not to test and let it play for a few drafts.
I have played Triumph for a few years, and quite like the card - it might not be the best removal, but I like having an edict effect and the once in a while 2-for-1 is solid. However, I never really considered Sudden Edict and was suddenly thinking it might be an improvement? For reference I play a unpowered 360 cube with 3 Liliana's (Veil, Last Hope and Death's Majesty), so the 2-for-1 isn't too hard to pull off.
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The odds of Liliana's Triumph's added benefits actually happening is very small compared to split second mattering. I'd imagine there are far more counterspells in most cubes than there are Liliana variants.
Gideon Jura if you have room for a 5 mana card in White. Gideon Jura is a pretty strong option for control and midrange. Gideon of the Trials is an okay card that can fit in aggro, control or midrange, but is never really great in any of them.
- Gideon of the Trials vs Gideon Blackblade just comes down to wether or not you want to push aggro or control more. Blackblade favors aggro, Trials favors control.
- At 4-cmc, Elspeth > Gideon >= The Wandering Emperor > Serra
- 5-cmc and above, Elspeth >= The Eternal Wanderer > Gideon Jura
Elspeth, Knight-Errant (I see some people talk about Elspeth as a has-been, but I still really like Elspeth, the jump ability is so solid at grabbing monarch/initative or take out opposing PWs)
Tier 2
Gideon Jura (Very solid in control, but perhaps a bit narrow from a cube design perspective)
Elspeth, Sun's Champion (I still find Elspeth a solid card in control as a sweeper/finisher hybrid)
Tier 3
Gideon Blackblade (Cool middle ground between creature and PW that fits well in aggro, but I don't think it is great)
The Eternal Wanderer (Hard to evaluate as it is newly spoiled, but I think this looks like it doesn't do enough at 6 mana)
I run Gideon, Wandering Emperor and Elspeth Sun's Champion at 360. I do miss Knight-Errant, but it's hard to find room for 4-mana non-creature spells. I might swap out Emperor for Knight-Errant with some more playtesting.
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I think Elspeth, Knight-Errant is the best mono colored planeswalker right now in my cube due to how important it is to win the initiative game. For the longest time I've always said that Elspeth, Knight-Errant >= Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in my cube (way before monarch / initiative were even a thing). With initiative running around now, my opinion has changed to Elspeth, Knight-Errant > Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Being able to give things flying to steal the initiative is huge, and the aggressive initiative path of giving two +1/+1 counters and dealing 5 damage to your opponent's face means Elspeth can generally close out the game a turn faster than before.
Elspeth's ability to immediately attack planeswalkers from the air has also gone up in value given how many more dangerous planeswalkers there are now. Not to mention that Elspeth pairs best with white's top-shelf creatures (Stoneforge Mystic / Palace Jailer / White Plume Adventurer / Seasoned Dungeoneer).
Tier 1
Gideon, Ally of zendikar
Elspeth, Knight-errant
Tier 1.5
Elspeth Sun's Champion
The Eternal wanderer
Wandering Emperor
Tier 2
Gideon Jura
Gideon of The trials
Tier 3
Serra The benevolent
Gideon Blackblade
All solid PWalkers!
I think wandering emperor is a little over-rated due to how hot she exploded on the standard scence and she plays better than people first thought.
I've been unimpressed with her in white agro. She's ok... Awesome in UW flash.
Background: I am looking over the big mana rocks in my colorless section in a 360 Unpowered Cube. I know for sure I am including Grim Monolith and Coalition Relic, but am struggling with choosing the other two from the following list:
Background: I am looking over the big mana rocks in my colorless section in a 360 Unpowered Cube. I know for sure I am including Grim Monolith and Coalition Relic, but am struggling with choosing the other two from the following list:
Personally I've cut Thran Dynamo / Hedron Archive a long time ago, so those would be my picks. I'm not a fan of 4-cmc cards that primarily just ramp. 3-cmc is my cutoff for that now.
Background: I am looking over the big mana rocks in my colorless section in a 360 Unpowered Cube. I know for sure I am including Grim Monolith and Coalition Relic, but am struggling with choosing the other two from the following list:
Personally I've cut Thran Dynamo / Hedron Archive a long time ago, so those would be my picks. I'm not a fan of 4-cmc cards that primarily just ramp. 3-cmc is my cutoff for that now.
I think Dynamo is the best of those FWIW as it's the best rate that you can use immediately. It only costs you a single mana if you can run a 2 spell turn. I'd probably run powerstone and dynamo if I had to pick 2 (although I run Dynamo, Archive, and Powestone). I personally hate chalice. Yeah, it scales, but you're never casting it for 6, at 2 there are so many better options and at 4 it's an archive you can never cash in, which is a card I would never play.
Elspeth Knight-Errant > Gideon, Ally of Zendikar > The Wandering Emperor. I could see playing The Wandering Emperor over Gideon though to diversify a bit since Elspeth and Gideon are extremely similar.
I haven't tested Leveler yet, but I've heard good things. Still, I think the death trigger for Idol / Titan are generally much more useful than Leveler's unearth ability, especially with Sneak Attack.
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I just added Narset, Parter of Veils and Sheoldred, the Apocalypse to my Legacy+ cube, and I'm thinking of adding either Timetwister or Time Spiral to go with those. I don't support Storm, and I'm already running Wheel of Fortune. Also running Memory Jar to pair with Sheoldred. I've been running Wheel mostly for Red Aggro support, but also for green ramp and artifact ramp support, so I'm thinking Timetwister since that fits into UR Aggro. But I also don't know if Timetwister is too powerful for an otherwise unpowered cube. Wheel of Fortune has been fine, but I don't know if Timetwister is any different either due to being blue or due to the shuffle letting you redraw powerful spells that were in the graveyard. I think before Leovold/Narset/Hullbreacher, the consensus was Time Spiral > Timetwister, but I don't know if that's changed now.
[180 classic cube]
Any of those 2 + any Hullbreacher effect is generally a better A + B combo than Kiki-Twin, IMO. The individual parts of the draw 7 combo are generally better cards than Kiki-Twin's pieces, and 3-cmc draw 7 + Hullbreacher is cheaper than any Kiki-Twin combination.
They're both pretty equal, IMO. The difference between discard / shuffling hand and graveyard doesn't make one better or worse than the other in any significant way. I don't see any reason to run one but not the other aside from $$$.
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[180 classic cube]
I have played Triumph for a few years, and quite like the card - it might not be the best removal, but I like having an edict effect and the once in a while 2-for-1 is solid. However, I never really considered Sudden Edict and was suddenly thinking it might be an improvement? For reference I play a unpowered 360 cube with 3 Liliana's (Veil, Last Hope and Death's Majesty), so the 2-for-1 isn't too hard to pull off.
The odds of Liliana's Triumph's added benefits actually happening is very small compared to split second mattering. I'd imagine there are far more counterspells in most cubes than there are Liliana variants.
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Thanks for the input. My question just turned moot anyway with today's spoiler of Sheoldred's Edict, which seems better than both to me.
2- Gideon Jura vs Gideon of the Trials?
3- Lorehold Command vs Otharri, Sun' Glory (ONE spoiler)?
Gideon Jura if you have room for a 5 mana card in White. Gideon Jura is a pretty strong option for control and midrange. Gideon of the Trials is an okay card that can fit in aggro, control or midrange, but is never really great in any of them.
[180 classic cube]
Pouch > Ornament = Celestus (can depend on how much your cube cares about day and night) > Relic
Gideon of the Trials > Gideon Jura
Pretty indifferent on Lorehold Command vs Otharri, Sun' Glory
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How I rank them based on mana cost:
- Gideon of the Trials vs Gideon Blackblade just comes down to wether or not you want to push aggro or control more. Blackblade favors aggro, Trials favors control.
- At 4-cmc, Elspeth > Gideon >= The Wandering Emperor > Serra
- 5-cmc and above, Elspeth >= The Eternal Wanderer > Gideon Jura
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Tier 1
Tier 2
Tier 3
I run Gideon, Wandering Emperor and Elspeth Sun's Champion at 360. I do miss Knight-Errant, but it's hard to find room for 4-mana non-creature spells. I might swap out Emperor for Knight-Errant with some more playtesting.
Elspeth's ability to immediately attack planeswalkers from the air has also gone up in value given how many more dangerous planeswalkers there are now. Not to mention that Elspeth pairs best with white's top-shelf creatures (Stoneforge Mystic / Palace Jailer / White Plume Adventurer / Seasoned Dungeoneer).
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Tier 1
Gideon, Ally of zendikar
Elspeth, Knight-errant
Tier 1.5
Elspeth Sun's Champion
The Eternal wanderer
Wandering Emperor
Tier 2
Gideon Jura
Gideon of The trials
Tier 3
Serra The benevolent
Gideon Blackblade
All solid PWalkers!
I think wandering emperor is a little over-rated due to how hot she exploded on the standard scence and she plays better than people first thought.
I've been unimpressed with her in white agro. She's ok... Awesome in UW flash.
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2- Melira, the Living Cure vs Qasali Pridemage?
3- Llanowar Loamspeaker vs Paradise Druid ?
Pridemage unless poison is a thing in your cube.
Loamspeaker but I don't like either of these that much.
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Pick Two:
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Personally I've cut Thran Dynamo / Hedron Archive a long time ago, so those would be my picks. I'm not a fan of 4-cmc cards that primarily just ramp. 3-cmc is my cutoff for that now.
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I think Dynamo is the best of those FWIW as it's the best rate that you can use immediately. It only costs you a single mana if you can run a 2 spell turn. I'd probably run powerstone and dynamo if I had to pick 2 (although I run Dynamo, Archive, and Powestone). I personally hate chalice. Yeah, it scales, but you're never casting it for 6, at 2 there are so many better options and at 4 it's an archive you can never cash in, which is a card I would never play.
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Cult Conscript vs. Evolved Sleeper
I'd prefer not to cut one of the zombies because Gravecrawler needs friends.
And what's the ranking of these now:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
The Wandering Emperor?
Thanks!
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Evolved Sleeper > Cult Conscript
Elspeth Knight-Errant > Gideon, Ally of Zendikar > The Wandering Emperor. I could see playing The Wandering Emperor over Gideon though to diversify a bit since Elspeth and Gideon are extremely similar.
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