Living Death also deserves mention here, but it's not a card you can just jam into any deck like Shriekmaw, you have to be willing to build around it and accept that it won't be the right call in every situation/matchup.
OP mentioned PWs in the question. I guess it just depends whether "drop" is slang for a permanent, or just a card you typically play at that mana cost.
While I recognize that Venser is the stronger and more versatile card, the context here is I'm also playing Baral, Chief of Compliance to support storm in 360 powered. With Baral, Memory Lapse is 1 mana counter that also loots. Overall my blue section is pretty creature light.
I can't imagine not playing Venser in a cube that also plays Karakas, as that's one of my favorite little combos to toss into a deck. So if I have to choose between Memory Lapse and Venser, I'm choosing Venser. Wow is the blue section of a 360 powered cube that supports storm so tight though
I can't imagine not playing Venser in a cube that also plays Karakas, as that's one of my favorite little combos to toss into a deck. So if I have to choose between Memory Lapse and Venser, I'm choosing Venser. Wow is the blue section of a 360 powered cube that supports storm so tight though
Thanks! Yeah...blue is ridiculous. You have to cut so many cards like Sower of Temptation and Looter il-Kor that are awesome and miles better than the worst cards in the other colors.
I think I've decided for now to give Daze the axe instead and keep both Venser and Memory Lapse. I feel that Daze and Memory Lapse are pretty equal in power level, but Baral breaks the tie in favor of Memory Lapse.
IMO these depend on the cube. I play neither and have no intention of adding either. I'd probably play Spell Pierce before both. But I like that card more than most people do.
I agree that Arcane Denial is among the lowest, but it is still completely uncuttable to me.
It is the only HARD counterspell that costs 1U. That's just too good to cut.
My ranking:
Mana Leak
Memory Lapse
Miscalculation
Force Spike
Daze
Arcane Denial
Forbid
Negate
I agree that Arcane Denial is among the lowest, but it is still completely uncuttable to me.
It is the only HARD counterspell that costs 1U. That's just too good to cut.
I've never really agreed with this sentiment, even though it seems like the majority of people on here do. Color requirements as U rather than UU matters specifically in the early game or on the splash. Generally, my decks that splash counter-magic are aggressive decks. They get under and then seal the deal in the same way that WW uses Armageddon. And yes, in those cases Arcane Denial is pretty great because the cards don't matter. But for many of those, Memory Lapse and Mana Leak do a great job too. And the other conditional counters can often enough. But in most blue decks, you really don't want to cast Arcane Denial early. And later on you're likely to have access to UU for your Mana Drain, Counterspell, Forbid, etc.
Overall, the scenarios where Arcane Denial truly is ideal/irreplaceable aren't super common AND other counterspells can already fill that role well enough. I get why many people play the card, and I had it in my cube for about a year, but I have zero interest in adding it back in and haven't missed it at all.
I disagree. I love Arcane Denial, and all the things about it that make it great show up all the time. The splashability matters so much. Not just in the early game, but it makes Arcane Denial playable in decks that can't even run Counterspell ...not to mention a myriad of situations where it's castable in decks that could play both. And now it's even more spicy, because I have Narset/Leovold shenanigans going on, and I'm also supporting that deck with Notion Thief. And Arcane Denial is a busted spell in those decks.
As I said, while it's playable in those decks, there are other splashable counterspells (e.g. Mana Leak / Memory Lapse) that do the job the majority of the time anyways. Here's a deck from my cube that would have loved Arcane Denial. They exist, but not to the degree where I want to play it over another U card.
Notion Thief is interesting, and if I add it, I'll likely try out Arcane Denial again. But without it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
- Mana Leak
- Miscalculation
- Forbid
- Arcane Denial
- Daze
- Force Spike
- Memory Lapse
- Negate
100% agree with this.
How many counterspells to run at 360?
I have Force of Will, Counterspell, Mana Drain, Mana Leak, Miscalculation, Remand, Condescend, Forbid, Cryptic Command, Mystic Confluence, Glen Elendra Archmage.
Daze vs. Miscalculation vs. Arcane Denial vs. Memory Lapse vs. Forbid vs. Mana Leak vs. Force Spike vs. Negate
at 405 the only 2 I don't run are Daze and Negate. I would run Daze over Negate myself. The rest I would probably run at even the smallest of cubes unless your cube has a different design than most other cubes on here. My cube is 405 right now just for reference. When my cube went from 360 to 405 I think Arcane Denial is the card that I found room for. Hope that helps you make a decision.
Friendly reminder to check the front page - MTGSalvation is hanging in there with a new owner! Much like Arcane Denial, some really weird **** happened 5 minutes later
PS. Where does Condescend fall nowadays? It's always near the chopping block for me, not based on lack of power, but because it's an easy cut to imagine.
Mu Yanling seems really cool and I urge you to test it, but it doesn't come close to the guaranteed immediate value of Jace or blowout potential of Narset.
Shocking no one, I agree with this.
Cheers,
rant
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*shrug*
While I recognize that Venser is the stronger and more versatile card, the context here is I'm also playing Baral, Chief of Compliance to support storm in 360 powered. With Baral, Memory Lapse is 1 mana counter that also loots. Overall my blue section is pretty creature light.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/129055
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https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
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Thanks! Yeah...blue is ridiculous. You have to cut so many cards like Sower of Temptation and Looter il-Kor that are awesome and miles better than the worst cards in the other colors.
I think I've decided for now to give Daze the axe instead and keep both Venser and Memory Lapse. I feel that Daze and Memory Lapse are pretty equal in power level, but Baral breaks the tie in favor of Memory Lapse.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
Daze vs. Micalculation vs. Arcane Denial vs. Memory Lapse vs. Forbid vs. Mana Leak vs. Force Spike vs. Negate
Personally I rank them, from best to worst:
Mana Leak
Memory Lapse
Daze
Miscalculation
Forbid
Negate
Force Spike
Arcane Denial
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My ranking is:
Mana Leak
VERY LARGE GAP
Daze
Miscalculation
GAP
Forbid
GAP
Memory Lapse
Force Spike
GAP
IMO these depend on the cube. I play neither and have no intention of adding either. I'd probably play Spell Pierce before both. But I like that card more than most people do.
Negate
Arcane Denial[/quote]
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It is the only HARD counterspell that costs 1U. That's just too good to cut.
My ranking:
Mana Leak
Memory Lapse
Miscalculation
Force Spike
Daze
Arcane Denial
Forbid
Negate
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
- Mana Leak
- Miscalculation
- Forbid
- Arcane Denial
- Daze
- Force Spike
- Memory Lapse
- Negate
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I've never really agreed with this sentiment, even though it seems like the majority of people on here do. Color requirements as U rather than UU matters specifically in the early game or on the splash. Generally, my decks that splash counter-magic are aggressive decks. They get under and then seal the deal in the same way that WW uses Armageddon. And yes, in those cases Arcane Denial is pretty great because the cards don't matter. But for many of those, Memory Lapse and Mana Leak do a great job too. And the other conditional counters can often enough. But in most blue decks, you really don't want to cast Arcane Denial early. And later on you're likely to have access to UU for your Mana Drain, Counterspell, Forbid, etc.
Overall, the scenarios where Arcane Denial truly is ideal/irreplaceable aren't super common AND other counterspells can already fill that role well enough. I get why many people play the card, and I had it in my cube for about a year, but I have zero interest in adding it back in and haven't missed it at all.
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Notion Thief is interesting, and if I add it, I'll likely try out Arcane Denial again. But without it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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100% agree with this.
How many counterspells to run at 360?
I have Force of Will, Counterspell, Mana Drain, Mana Leak, Miscalculation, Remand, Condescend, Forbid, Cryptic Command, Mystic Confluence, Glen Elendra Archmage.
at 405 the only 2 I don't run are Daze and Negate. I would run Daze over Negate myself. The rest I would probably run at even the smallest of cubes unless your cube has a different design than most other cubes on here. My cube is 405 right now just for reference. When my cube went from 360 to 405 I think Arcane Denial is the card that I found room for. Hope that helps you make a decision.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
1. All my blue decks.
/end of list.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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(FWIW, Arcane Denial is 360 material. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong and I shall hear no opinions to the contrary.)
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Mana Leak
Arcane Denial
Miscalculation
Forbid
Memory Lapse
Negate
Daze
Force Spike
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
PS. Where does Condescend fall nowadays? It's always near the chopping block for me, not based on lack of power, but because it's an easy cut to imagine.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer - Jace Beleren - Narset, Parter of the Veil.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Same ranking for me. I think they're all quite good though.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Jace > Narset > Mu, maaaaaybe Narset = Mu
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*