I'm going to mirror the above--Ral is not a bad card, but Dack is insane and maybe one of if not the best multicolored card. Even if your cube completely lacked artifacts, it's still a 3 mana continual 2 card looter that can target either player. But since that's not many cubes, it's truly insane to steal so many different types of artifacts--mana rocks, giant robots, equipment, they're all good when they're just *part* of one of the many things Dack can do for you.
I choose not to run Ral as I like the lower costed Izzet stuff and I think Dack's Duplicant is really cool (and the obvious Dack Tribal Deck is absurd, right?!) but that's the 'problem' with Izzet and a lot of multicolored sections is that there's a lot of cool stuff but there should only really be so many slots. There's no point in drafting or deckbuilding where I'm ever thinking 'gee I wish I had more multicolored cards in these packs' so unfortunately Ral has to sit.
Also, is Izzet really that shallow? I think any of the below are fine inclusions to an Izzet section:
And prob some others I'm forgetting? They're not all elite, but all cubeable to a real degree. I wouldn't question any of their inclusions.
Agreed that most of them will be played sometimes if you include them, it is not as bad as it was a decade ago. It is all compared to what else you can do in that real estate and what other guilds and colors can do. I am playing Dack, Ral, Electrolyze and Fire//Ice. Ral and Electrolyze are easily cuttable, both fall into the category of "if I am in the colors, I will likely play them". Ral is best in a superfriends deck, but is pretty useful against opposing planeswalkers or aggro decks too. Hard to take advantage of the plus ability. Fire//Ice and Electrolyze are somewhat similar - both are counterburn cards that provide flexibility and perhaps card advantage at an increased cost. Electrolyze especially suffers from the competition from cheaper burn and card selection spells. A great card against aggro though. Izzet charm was terrible in my experience, all modes are weak and again I've never drafted a deck that really wanted it. I know some people like it, but it was pretty much a trap card here. Dack's Duplicate was bad against aggro because the targets are low value, bad against control as you have few targets resulting in a dead card most of the time, and against the rest (ramp, reanimator, midrange) blue had enough better trump cards. I've cut Prophetic Bolt years ago, it is too expensive and cannot compete with the blue and red five drops of this age.
The only two cards I've not tried from that list are Stormchaser Mage and Keranos. Stormchaser is a solid roleplayer, so it stands out in this weak guild. It requires support of the spells matters deck and likely also some support for blue tempo. It is just not for every cube. But I appreciate the card. Keranos is a hard sell to me, as it does nothing when you cast him and again there is a limit to how many five drops you can play in a deck. What was your experience with him?
I think Izzet is the guild that needs the most help, both in terms of depth and in terms of power level.
Yeah the guild has less Staples than some others. I've enjoyed Izzet Charm quite a bit, for a two Mana spell it does quite a bit.
Keranos is really good in control or mid-range mirrors. Yeah it'll feel bad when your oponent is t1 goblin guiding, but it does a good job of making sure you're always drawing gas and, when you do, getting free spells out of it. Essentially its like a phyrexian arena thats really tough to remove that either is drawing you lands or lightning bolts each turn, and that has been good in practice. It doesn't turn into a creature that often, but it's great when it does and it's def not impossible. I could see not running it, but I understand the intent when I see it in a cube.
I don't have a ton of experience with stormchaser, but if you're playing a lot of UR tempo then it's an amazing card there.
Dacks Duplicate has been super awesome for me. A hastey clone can be crazy in some cubes, and the dethrone is super relevant when they can't even trade with the creature sometimes.
All three of these are also appealing options since so much if the guild is damage/draw spells. The burn and such is good, but I like the idea of changing things up here and there and these are good options for that. Like you say, the burn is just kinda 'if I'm UR I'll play it's whereas the above three at minimum have spots and roles and I like that sometimes.
As long as Titans are smashing face Dack's Duplicate is Izzet's ace
I like the Charm more than 'Lyze
Its cheaper, negates, AND kills that Guide!
The Stormchaser Mage is intriguing for sure
but Fire // Ice my playgroup adores
It either kills or draws you a card
but its boring compared to that buff bolting God!
Pia Nalaar vs. Combat Celebrant in a Powered Cube.
Which one and why?
Thanks a lot
Agreed with wtwlf. Pia is the broadly playable one with all the synergies. Celebrant is an in-color combo piece that has uses outside the combo (if you support it).
Right now, I'm not running Gifted Aetherborn, but I'm thinking I'd like to add it to help offset lifeloss from Dark Confidant, Necropotence and Bitterblossom. I'm also supporting Devotion in black, which Aetherborn helps with. Bloodghast, Nantuko Shade, Geralf's Messenger also support the devotion plan. Bloodghast can fuel Carrion Feeder, and to a lesser extent, Braids, cabal Minion and Recurring Nightmare. Nantuko Shade is strong for Devotion, as those decks have tons of swamps to fuel the shade. Geralf's Messenger is a zombie for Gravecrawler.
i think you could also cut sinkhole. it doesnt contribute to the devotion package, its narrow in that it will only probably be played in the devotion deck, and there are just more playable land destruction options out there with stripmine, wasteland, field of ruin etc.
Vanguard > Initiate > Trooper
The artifact destruction answer is rather dependent on the environment. I think Smash has the higher powerlevel but it does not mean it is the right choice for your cube. It depends on the artifact concentration, for one. If each deck has around 1-2 artifacts that you must answer (swords, jitte, shackles) and a low number of artifacts in total, say 4 (including mana rocks, moxen) then Vandals has the advantage as it is playable even when an artifact does not show up. You are in the happy medium where you want to have a maindeck out to artifacts but will likely not have a target every time. There are shells where Vandal excels, such as Alesha/Lark, or with Imperial Recruiter in Kiki combo decks, or somewhat with blink decks (although the value you can get from this type of effect is rather capped against the average deck, in my cube you'd be lucky to kill 2 artifacts in a game against all but the artifact deck). I think they are less common added together in most cubes than pure red aggro decks though.
Well One gains you 4 life Two takes 4 away
Now, I've been playing Initiate 4 days
I gotta say, through a Wrath, Two might stay
but One exert trigger and its no longer a race
Initiate > Vanguard > Trooper. Does more things for 2 mana. Aside from power level, I don't like uninteractive aggro (read: shadow).
EDIT: Went and read up a bunch on Vanguard. Starting to reconsider it. Here's why I like Initiate more.
Two key differences between Initiate and Vanguard are how they force damage through a blocker, and how they react to removal.
-Initiate changes the combat math, gets bigger and harder to block well, and gains you some life. That's totally adequate for a 2-drop. And it's free to do. No, totally free. Well, except for the exert, which can be real-ish. But you should be playing more creatures anyway to add board pressure in decks this guy goes in. Also, Initiate just dies to removal. I don't really ask my 2-drops not to.
-Vanguard disregards the combat entirely and just has a "guarantee survival" button, making it even more difficult to block because not trading makes blocks unappealing. But BOY DOES IT STING LET ME TELL YOU when they have instant speed removal in response, leaving you to either pay 8 life total to your 2-drop (for no gain other then keeping it alive) or let it die. That's like Bob flipping Tombstalker. But then you don't draw it. Gross.
I'm ravenous for creatures that can guarantee Planeswalker damage. So I played Marauders for a while. But as AntiPox said, the lack of longer term pressure from it feels bad.
Don't forgot to try out Burning-Fist Minotaur and Bloodrage Brawler! I've been pleased with them thus far.
I like marauders quite a bit that most people. I look at is as a late game deal 2 damage, or if you play this during your second turn your opponent chooses to take 5 damage or take 2 damage and sacrifice a creature.
Pretty good for 2 mana in my opinion. Better in a more burn heavy deck than an aggro deck obviously since it doesn't stick around
I choose not to run Ral as I like the lower costed Izzet stuff and I think Dack's Duplicant is really cool (and the obvious Dack Tribal Deck is absurd, right?!) but that's the 'problem' with Izzet and a lot of multicolored sections is that there's a lot of cool stuff but there should only really be so many slots. There's no point in drafting or deckbuilding where I'm ever thinking 'gee I wish I had more multicolored cards in these packs' so unfortunately Ral has to sit.
Also, is Izzet really that shallow? I think any of the below are fine inclusions to an Izzet section:
-Dack
-Ral
-Izzet Charm
-Electrolyze
-Dack's Duplicant
-Keranos
-Prophetic Bolt
-Stormchaser Mage
And prob some others I'm forgetting? They're not all elite, but all cubeable to a real degree. I wouldn't question any of their inclusions.
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Agreed that most of them will be played sometimes if you include them, it is not as bad as it was a decade ago. It is all compared to what else you can do in that real estate and what other guilds and colors can do. I am playing Dack, Ral, Electrolyze and Fire//Ice. Ral and Electrolyze are easily cuttable, both fall into the category of "if I am in the colors, I will likely play them". Ral is best in a superfriends deck, but is pretty useful against opposing planeswalkers or aggro decks too. Hard to take advantage of the plus ability. Fire//Ice and Electrolyze are somewhat similar - both are counterburn cards that provide flexibility and perhaps card advantage at an increased cost. Electrolyze especially suffers from the competition from cheaper burn and card selection spells. A great card against aggro though. Izzet charm was terrible in my experience, all modes are weak and again I've never drafted a deck that really wanted it. I know some people like it, but it was pretty much a trap card here. Dack's Duplicate was bad against aggro because the targets are low value, bad against control as you have few targets resulting in a dead card most of the time, and against the rest (ramp, reanimator, midrange) blue had enough better trump cards. I've cut Prophetic Bolt years ago, it is too expensive and cannot compete with the blue and red five drops of this age.
The only two cards I've not tried from that list are Stormchaser Mage and Keranos. Stormchaser is a solid roleplayer, so it stands out in this weak guild. It requires support of the spells matters deck and likely also some support for blue tempo. It is just not for every cube. But I appreciate the card. Keranos is a hard sell to me, as it does nothing when you cast him and again there is a limit to how many five drops you can play in a deck. What was your experience with him?
I think Izzet is the guild that needs the most help, both in terms of depth and in terms of power level.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Keranos is really good in control or mid-range mirrors. Yeah it'll feel bad when your oponent is t1 goblin guiding, but it does a good job of making sure you're always drawing gas and, when you do, getting free spells out of it. Essentially its like a phyrexian arena thats really tough to remove that either is drawing you lands or lightning bolts each turn, and that has been good in practice. It doesn't turn into a creature that often, but it's great when it does and it's def not impossible. I could see not running it, but I understand the intent when I see it in a cube.
I don't have a ton of experience with stormchaser, but if you're playing a lot of UR tempo then it's an amazing card there.
Dacks Duplicate has been super awesome for me. A hastey clone can be crazy in some cubes, and the dethrone is super relevant when they can't even trade with the creature sometimes.
All three of these are also appealing options since so much if the guild is damage/draw spells. The burn and such is good, but I like the idea of changing things up here and there and these are good options for that. Like you say, the burn is just kinda 'if I'm UR I'll play it's whereas the above three at minimum have spots and roles and I like that sometimes.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Dack's Duplicate is Izzet's ace
I like the Charm more than 'Lyze
Its cheaper, negates, AND kills that Guide!
The Stormchaser Mage is intriguing for sure
but Fire // Ice my playgroup adores
It either kills or draws you a card
but its boring compared to that buff bolting God!
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Agreed with wtwlf. Pia is the broadly playable one with all the synergies. Celebrant is an in-color combo piece that has uses outside the combo (if you support it).
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Right now, I'm not running Gifted Aetherborn, but I'm thinking I'd like to add it to help offset lifeloss from Dark Confidant, Necropotence and Bitterblossom. I'm also supporting Devotion in black, which Aetherborn helps with. Bloodghast, Nantuko Shade, Geralf's Messenger also support the devotion plan. Bloodghast can fuel Carrion Feeder, and to a lesser extent, Braids, cabal Minion and Recurring Nightmare. Nantuko Shade is strong for Devotion, as those decks have tons of swamps to fuel the shade. Geralf's Messenger is a zombie for Gravecrawler.
Sinkhole is supported by Vindicate, Where and Braids.
Desecration Demon is just a big, dumb, demon, but it can support Wildfire if that deck splashes black.
[180 classic cube]
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Manic Vandal or Smash to Smithereens?
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
Vanguard > Initiate > Trooper
The artifact destruction answer is rather dependent on the environment. I think Smash has the higher powerlevel but it does not mean it is the right choice for your cube. It depends on the artifact concentration, for one. If each deck has around 1-2 artifacts that you must answer (swords, jitte, shackles) and a low number of artifacts in total, say 4 (including mana rocks, moxen) then Vandals has the advantage as it is playable even when an artifact does not show up. You are in the happy medium where you want to have a maindeck out to artifacts but will likely not have a target every time. There are shells where Vandal excels, such as Alesha/Lark, or with Imperial Recruiter in Kiki combo decks, or somewhat with blink decks (although the value you can get from this type of effect is rather capped against the average deck, in my cube you'd be lucky to kill 2 artifacts in a game against all but the artifact deck). I think they are less common added together in most cubes than pure red aggro decks though.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
Smash > Vandal if powered or enough artifacts to support Tinker, other way around if not.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
One gains you 4 life
Two takes 4 away
Now, I've been playing Initiate 4 days
I gotta say, through a Wrath, Two might stay
but One exert trigger and its no longer a race
Initiate > Vanguard > Trooper. Does more things for 2 mana. Aside from power level, I don't like uninteractive aggro (read: shadow).
EDIT: Went and read up a bunch on Vanguard. Starting to reconsider it. Here's why I like Initiate more.
Two key differences between Initiate and Vanguard are how they force damage through a blocker, and how they react to removal.
-Initiate changes the combat math, gets bigger and harder to block well, and gains you some life. That's totally adequate for a 2-drop. And it's free to do. No, totally free. Well, except for the exert, which can be real-ish. But you should be playing more creatures anyway to add board pressure in decks this guy goes in. Also, Initiate just dies to removal. I don't really ask my 2-drops not to.
-Vanguard disregards the combat entirely and just has a "guarantee survival" button, making it even more difficult to block because not trading makes blocks unappealing. But BOY DOES IT STING LET ME TELL YOU when they have instant speed removal in response, leaving you to either pay 8 life total to your 2-drop (for no gain other then keeping it alive) or let it die. That's like Bob flipping Tombstalker. But then you don't draw it. Gross.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
I'm ravenous for creatures that can guarantee Planeswalker damage. So I played Marauders for a while. But as AntiPox said, the lack of longer term pressure from it feels bad.
Don't forgot to try out Burning-Fist Minotaur and Bloodrage Brawler! I've been pleased with them thus far.
This is still the best place for high-power-level cube chat & debate.
Here's to many more years at MTGS *clink*
Pretty good for 2 mana in my opinion. Better in a more burn heavy deck than an aggro deck obviously since it doesn't stick around
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
2 - Huntmaster of the Fells vs Sarkhan Vol vs Xenagos, the Reveler vs Grand Warlord Radha? What order ?
3 - Thrashing Brontodon vs Broken Bond ? (for unpowered cube)
4 - Vampire Hexmage vs Pale Rider of Trostad ?
Stalker > Wurm = Gearhulk > Belzenlok
Sarkhan = Xenagos > Huntmaster > Radha
Brontodon > Broken Bond in unpowered
Rider > Hexmage, but you can probably do better than either of them.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Sarkhan > Xenagos = Huntmaster > Radha
In unpowered, Brontodon > Bond
Rider > Hexmage
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Wurm > Gearhulk > Stalker > Belzenlok
Huntmaster > Xenagos > Sarkhan > Radha
Rider > Hexmage
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
1 - Phyrexian Scriptures vs Black Sun's Zenith vs Bontu's Last Reckoning ? What order ?
2 - Deathgorge Scavenger vs Boon Satyr vs Rhonas the Indomitable ? What order ?
3 - Vizier of the Menagerie vs Territorial Allosaurus vs Ripjaw Raptor vs Surrak, the Hunt Caller ? What order?
4 - Teferi, Hero of Dominaria vs Sphinx's Revelation ?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!