MTG Salvation

I value the power of miracles greatly and have also never understood the variability arguement, heck day of judgement is pretty bad if your opponent has 0-1 creatures out. Yawgmoth;s will is pretty bad if you have no cards in your graveyard. Miracle is pretty easy to enable in most decks that run blue, and the chances of blindly miracling are also prettmy high in a nonblue deck.

Quote from dschumm

Every control deck wants it and I find people are willing to splash it more than wrath. 2 white at 6 isn't bad, but at 4 yo uhave to be W/X not X/w ...

This doesn't make any sense. When talking about splashing it's not the number of coloured mana symbols compared to the CMC that matters, but just the number of coloured mana symbols.

*** and Terminus are about equally sucky to splash unless you have some good way to set up the Miracle, because they both have WW in their cost.

And when people talk about it being to expensive it's because 6 mana wraths <<< 4 mana wraths. Even 5 mana wraths are vastly inferior to 4 mana wraths, because that one turns difference very often is the difference between win and loose.

So far it's been pretty good in testing. Far better than most other 6cc wraths, and I like it quite a bit more than Hallowed Burial.

I'm surprised it's working out well. If someone asked me to name a single effect whose timing I want and need to control the most, I would probably say sweepers. It's not like you can randomly topdeck it like Bonfire, Entreat or Banishing Stroke and always profit in some manner. That's cool that it plays well, though. I guess theorycraft doesn't always tell the full story.

Quote from wtwlf123

So far it's been pretty good in testing. Far better than most other 6cc wraths, and I like it quite a bit more than Hallowed Burial.

How do you like it compared to Rout? That's the only white sweeper I'd be willing to cut right now.

Cheers,
rant

Quote from Goodking

I'm surprised it's working out well. If someone asked me to name a single effect whose timing I want and need to control the most, I would probably say sweepers. It's not like you can randomly topdeck it like Bonfire, Entreat or Banishing Stroke and always profit in some manner. That's cool that it plays well, though. I guess theorycraft doesn't always tell the full story.

The timing can sometimes be an issue, sure. But there's a lot of times where I'll draw and cast a wrath effect in the same turn. In those instances, casting a Burial for 1 mana and following it up with a threat can put you in the driver's seat like no other Wrath effect can.

I'm certainly not saying the effect is broken; only that I've been pleasantly surprised.

Quote from rantipole

How do you like it compared to Rout? That's the only white sweeper I'd be willing to cut right now.

Cheers,
rant

I really like Rout. It's my next favorite wrath after the ones I'm currently running, and if Terminus fails to perform in the long run, Rout will likely be the addition. I simply need more testing to say anything conclusive.

Would you replace Catastrophe with this?

Quote from DerBK

If you are simply looking for another Wrath variant, i'd look somewhere else, like Rout or Austere Command.

Why on earth would you want Austere Command over Terminus if all you wanted was a wrath effect? At least Rout is 1 mana cheaper. So is Hallowed Burial. But neither of those really account for what this whole thread discussion is about, which is the value of the Miracle cost.

-AA

Quote from DerBK

The real value of Terminus lies in its ability to put the creatures out of reach of recursion shenanigans. The Miracle ability is just a couple of splashy lines of text that matter about as much as "This card can't be countered" on Supreme Verdict.

If this were true, people would be playing Hallowed Burial The Miracle cost is a very big part of the card, because, as mentioned earlier, being able to wrath the board AND play a big threat is pretty back breaking for most decks to deal with. THAT is what makes it so special.

Quote from DerBK

Because Austere Command has options, making it possibly onesided or giving it the option to kill noncreatures. That's better than getting to Miracle the card every couple of games. So Austere Command is better than Terminus if you just want to kill stuff dead.

Then it isn't just 'another wrath variant'. Wrath implies destroying all creatures, which Awkward Command can't do and still have 'options'. So I completely disagree that it is better, because you don't get all modes. Akroma's Vengeance, on the other hand, kills stuff dead. Which would be my 'wrath variant' of choice, since it 'wraths' AND other stuff.

The real value of Terminus lies in its ability to put the creatures out of reach of recursion shenanigans. The Miracle ability is just a couple of splashy lines of text that matter about as much as "This card can't be countered" on Supreme Verdict.

Disagree again. The one mana is where it's at, in addition to the putting on the bottomness.

-AA

I like Terminus but don't like Burial, so I don't agree with that assessment at all. It's a combination of the Burial effect plus the Miracle that makes it good.

Quote from cuttups

I have had Terminus in since it came out and have been unimpressed so far. 6 mana really is too much for just a wrath. I know it's not just a wrath but you don't get much extra value from it most of the time. I have never seen it get miracled and it usually is too slow. I am not in a rush to cut it but it won't be around much longer just because it is slow and we just got another wrath in RtR.

I got to play Terminus in a deck last night with Scroll Rack and Mystical Tutor and it was nasty. I drew Terminus in my opening hand every game but was able to get Rack down each time and put it on top of my library in order to cast it for the miracle cost. Dropping a wrath for one is as good as it sounds like it would be.

Early wraths are awesome.
Wraths that let you play 3 other spells in the same turn are awesome.
Wraths that have a sucky 6 mana cost are not awesome. The miracle is about 60% of this card.

it is miracled about 75% of the time in my cube.

Quote from eidolon232

Assuming that the "top of library tricks" balances out the impact of your additional card draw

I don't think this is a fair assumption in the slightest. In some decks, there won't be any way to replace it on the top, in some decks there will be Jace and Scroll Rack.

Terminus was discussed here in the Random Cube Card of the Day Thread. You have reached the end of this thread, you know what thread never ends? You guessed it, visit the thread.

(Spoiler: Too inconsistent for most cubes; a 1 mana wrath is amazing but it takes a lot of top-deck control to make it anything other than a 6 mana wrath.)

I really missing seeing this card after the SST banning in legacy.

I wonder if the new London Mulligan improve miracles? I think the payoff/ hard cast cost of terminus is worth it, although I would love to see another brainstorm (or 2) in my cube.

Without a lot of top of library manipulation, I found this card supremely mediocre (and I don't see how the new mulligan rules would change it?).

If you can cast it for 1 33% of the time or more, I think the card's fantastic, but since I cut scroll rack and top for time reasons (they tended to slow the game down and I found them more annoying than powerful on balance), it doesn't have a place in my cube. Casting this at 6 is just way, way too slow in modern cubes.

Quote from asmallcat »

Without a lot of top of library manipulation, I found this card supremely mediocre (and I don't see how the new mulligan rules would change it?).

If you can cast it for 1 33% of the time or more, I think the card's fantastic, but since I cut scroll rack and top for time reasons (they tended to slow the game down and I found them more annoying than powerful on balance), it doesn't have a place in my cube. Casting this at 6 is just way, way too slow in modern cubes.

I had a game with entreat yesterday where I had to mulligan to 6 and I bottomed Entreat the Angels. I naturally drew it on turn 6.

I’ve played a LOT of terminus in cube, with a cube that has 2x brainstorm.

If you have multiple top of the library manipulation effects in the same deck, terminus is the most
Powerful sweeper printed.

Without it, it’s noteably worse than the plethora of wrath options available. It also is unplayable as a sideboard card, whereas wrath sometimes gets boarded in for agressive decks.

When I went from 485 to 540 I noticed a big dip in the quality of miracles. Eventually I cut the whole package.

IF they ever print more library manipulation effects, I’ll definitely bring it back.

With 3+ library manipulation effects both terminus and entreat are incredibly good, even in 2022.

Entreat was a fairly good payoff, but I think I might agree that Terminus isn't really there.

How many white sweepers do people usually run? I'd run Wrath of God and Day of Judgement before Terminus almost every time, but Terminus is probably number 3. Doomskar, Realm Cloaked Giant, Farewell, Settle the Wreckage, Akroma's Vengeance, and Cleansing Nova are all sort of in contention with Terminus in my mind, but I'd probably still run Terminus as the 3rd so long as I had enough stuff like Opt, Consider, Brainstorm etc.

Quote from genini2 »

How many white sweepers do people usually run? I'd run Wrath of God and Day of Judgement before Terminus almost every time, but Terminus is probably number 3. Doomskar, Realm Cloaked Giant, Farewell, Settle the Wreckage, Akroma's Vengeance, and Cleansing Nova are all sort of in contention with Terminus in my mind, but I'd probably still run Terminus as the 3rd so long as I had enough stuff like Opt, Consider, Brainstorm etc.

Funny enough, I've found the best deck for Balance has been Reanimator as it's able clear the board, act as a discard outlet AND be tutored via black's tutors. In this regard, I've found that Terminus hasn't been very good in the UW miracles deck as the top of the library manipulation is hard to come by in a singleton format.

However, it's fairly strong in non-white based control/ combo decks such as Lands, Reanimator, Prison etc. or decks that would appreciate sweepers AND don't have too many draw effects.

I'm planning to test Terminus a try as I haven't been too comfortable with the gap between the best/ worst white removal/ sweeper options and I would prefer something that CAN be strong in the right shell rather than cards that are always meh.