Terminus is a card that has my interest again recently. I've been looking for another playable wrath variant for my white control decks, and also looking at ways to get rid of abusive recurring creatures, persist/undying and reanimated creatures, etc.
Of all the Miracle cards, Wrath effects are probably the ones you want to have the most control over the window in which they're cast. Which was the original turn-off for me with this card. But the more I think about it, the more favorably I think it compares to other "next best" wrath options. Particularly since it removes problematic creatures in a way the other ones can't.
It also has the potential blow-out scenarios that all Miracle cards do. I mean, casting a Wrath for 1 mana and then playing a threat in the same turn is pretty insane. And with the available library manipulation spells out there, I thought it could be reasonable to include it as the wrath effect I want to test out.
If Hallowed Burial was a card under consideration, I think Terminus compares pretty favorably. A 1 tax for a potential 3W discount seems more than fair.
I'm not recommending the spell for particularly small cubes or anything, but for people that have experience with the spell, how did it perform?
I rank Terminus just slightly below Day/Wrath. It's very easy to set up the tempo Wrath off of a Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, or Vamp/Mystical Tutor. It's a card that creates some pretty insane scenarios where you quite literally need a miracle to get out of the jam. Definitely recommended.
I've played with Terminus since its release.
I've just removed it with the GTC update and kept Hallowed Burial. It's simply too rarely that the Miracle comes up that it's important. And when it does come up it's not always that it's relevant.
The only time the miracle is good is when combined with Brainstorm or Jace, TMS, and that have come up one time in all its time in my cube.
I've played with Terminus since its release.
I've just removed it with the GTC update and kept Hallowed Burial. It's simply too rarely that the Miracle comes up that it's important. And when it does come up it's not always that it's relevant.
The only time the miracle is good is when combined with Brainstorm or Jace, TMS, and that have come up one time in all its time in my cube.
In a typical draft with Terminus, I find that I can set up Miracle very reliably with just one top-deck tutor. That means over the course of the night I wouldn't be surprised to set up a one-mana Wrath 4+ times. It surprises me to hear you say it has only come up once.
I've also had good experiences with Terminus, for many of the same reasons that Kranny has. It is easy to set up with a variety of cards, the discount is INSANE, and the non-discounted version is still somewhat reasonable for the effect.
And I've found the 'miracle' aspect of the mechanic to much more palatable in Cube than in constructed.
In a typical draft with Terminus, I find that I can set up Miracle very reliably with just one top-deck tutor. That means over the course of the night I wouldn't be surprised to set up a one-mana Wrath 4+ times. It surprises me to hear you say it has only come up once.
Maybe it's just my playgroup that have failed to build around it properly... I might give it another try for 6 months to see if anythings changed.
I don't find getting tutors so easy that I can reliably expect a card like terminus to be better than hallowed burial. The difference between 5 and 6 mana is huge when it comes to wraths in my experience. When I tested delver it was absolutely amazing with mystical and vampiric, but my overall results with that card give my plenty of reason to shy away from terminus.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I have had Terminus in since it came out and have been unimpressed so far. 6 mana really is too much for just a wrath. I know it's not just a wrath but you don't get much extra value from it most of the time. I have never seen it get miracled and it usually is too slow. I am not in a rush to cut it but it won't be around much longer just because it is slow and we just got another wrath in RtR.
Again, I'll just say that I'm surprised to hear that people haven't been reliably miracling this card. I wouldn't blame anyone for not including miracles if they're so infrequent like you say. For us, that's just not the case. Entreat, Bonfire, and Terminus are all in and doing just fine.
Certainly a powerful Wrath variant somewhere just below the classic 4 casting cost ones. Personally I detest the miracle mechanic, so I just don't include any of those cards for that reason. Call me crazy....
Certainly a powerful Wrath variant somewhere just below the classic 4 casting cost ones. Personally I detest the miracle mechanic, so I just don't include any of those cards for that reason. Call me crazy....
If this were constructed, I'd understand. But this is a 'fun' format, and I'm completely down with getting peeled on for a good story.
I dislike it as well, but not for any balance reasons. I dislike it for roughly the same reason I dislike graveyard order cards. I just know we will have extremely unsatisfying situations where players do not realize they have drawn the card soon enough.
I dislike it as well, but not for any balance reasons. I dislike it for roughly the same reason I dislike graveyard order cards. I just know we will have extremely unsatisfying situations where players do not realize they have drawn the card soon enough.
Not realizing you have drawn a card seems pretty stupid, no? Especially if you drafted a miracle card, then put in your deck during construction. Ok, everybody does stupid things late at night, but either your group is relaxed enough to take back stuff like that or it is strict enough to man up after a moment of stupidity.
Graveyard order matter cards feel natural to me as I did most of my competitve play when you just didn't mess with your graveyard unless you wanted a warning.
You know your playgroup best though, but people can adapt and learn (especially through making mistakes).
I don't think Wrath and Day are interchangeable and I think Terminus is better than Day at 360 because it provides a much different effect that you'd rather have over an inferior Wrath variant.
If this were constructed, I'd understand. But this is a 'fun' format, and I'm completely down with getting peeled on for a good story.
-AA
There are bad beat top decks already built into the game. I dislike that the mechanic just enhances the possibility of them. I wouldn't be upset to have them see play in another person's cube, I might even draft/play them if I was building a deck that needed them, but I'd feel really dirty doing it. Precisely because we play for fun, I'd rather cards that I find unfun, not be in my cube.
There are bad beat top decks already built into the game. I dislike that the mechanic just enhances the possibility of them. I wouldn't be upset to have them see play in another person's cube, I might even draft/play them if I was building a deck that needed them, but I'd feel really dirty doing it. Precisely because we play for fun, I'd rather cards that I find unfun, not be in my cube.
They really are not unfun, and can lead to lots of laughs and stories later on.
I dislike it as well, but not for any balance reasons. I dislike it for roughly the same reason I dislike graveyard order cards. I just know we will have extremely unsatisfying situations where players do not realize they have drawn the card soon enough.
That's interesting. We've never had a player miss a Miracle trigger.
I don't think Wrath and Day are interchangeable and I think Terminus is better than Day at 360 because it provides a much different effect that you'd rather have over an inferior Wrath variant.
I don't necessarily think they're interchangeable, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it Inferior. I've run regenerators alongside DOJ to make it favorable for me to resolve it more often than I've run into a regenerator that beats me because of that clause. And in the other 99% of situations, they play exactly the same.
I do agree that playing Terminus over DOJ certainly mixes up the effects more and gives more variety.
I want to be able to time my wraths when I want. You can nearly always benefit from a huge amount of damage to your opponent and his/her creatures or a load of 4/4 flyers, but there are many times when it's bad to wrath. That leaves me with a really overcosted spell. I don't consider Hallowed Burial to be particularly good, and making Wraths come a turn or two/three later can just result in a loss.
On the other hand, the new undying creatures and so on make the effect more valuable. It's the best version of this effect that we have and as such I would consider it quite runnable. I would always draft and play Wrath/DoJ above this though, for any deck wanting the ability.
I haven't played with this card before but I have seen it in action
It's exciting and powerful at times and if that's what you're looking for in your cube it's a great option. Terminus does interact well with specific artifacts like Top, Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack,... etc. it means it doesn't work as good with Regrowth, Eternal Witness, and Snapcaster Mage.
People talk about this being waayyyyy overcosted like it takes 9 to cast. At worst it is 6, and frequently it is 1. There is that narrow window turns 4-5 where is can be uglier in hand than a day but I also have had it do amazing things for me. The turn one mystical tutor for terminus in respose to a reanimated armada wurm was quite memorable.
Rather than unfun it has proven to be helpful in holding back degenerate plays of others. I guess my group feels differently about sweepers. They are viewed as saving someone from losing more often than as winning the game themselves(even if that is what they are doing agaist an aggro deck with an empty grip). Miricles are so popular in my group that I included Terminus from day one, Bonfire as soon as I traded for one and Revenge of the hunted just recently. There are lots of ways to abuse them or ramp into them.
Terminus in particular is locked in my cube. Every control deck wants it and I find people are willing to splash it more than wrath. 2 white at 6 isn't bad, but at 4 yo uhave to be W/X not X/w especially when it is often 1 white if you need it early game. I saw it played in a grixis control deck and a u/r counter burn very light on white sources. I asked my buddy who drafted both of those what he was thinking and he said it got dumped to chrome mox or looted a couple of times but with mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder etc in his deck it was a house.
I am just so surprised peple complain about the variability of miracle cards so much(especially terminus). Lots of cards have a value differential. Some very powerful cards are quite variable like goyf, bob, fast mana, fatties, wheel of fortune, regrowth......... Maybe not as much as miracles but drafting and deck building is all about making cards combine and synergize. Miracle is such a unique mechanic I think people are missing out not including it.
And the fun arguement. I don't want ot go there but if we are taking out cards that are sometimes broken and othertimes not great we can drop about 50 360 staples that are combo oriented. Next time someone crushes you wit ha bonfire or such, just smile and not and remeber all those games you did the crushing and the opponent didn't tilt the table on you. Games are games and losing is sweet because it makes winning feel so good.
Terminus is a card that has my interest again recently. I've been looking for another playable wrath variant for my white control decks, and also looking at ways to get rid of abusive recurring creatures, persist/undying and reanimated creatures, etc.
Of all the Miracle cards, Wrath effects are probably the ones you want to have the most control over the window in which they're cast. Which was the original turn-off for me with this card. But the more I think about it, the more favorably I think it compares to other "next best" wrath options. Particularly since it removes problematic creatures in a way the other ones can't.
It also has the potential blow-out scenarios that all Miracle cards do. I mean, casting a Wrath for 1 mana and then playing a threat in the same turn is pretty insane. And with the available library manipulation spells out there, I thought it could be reasonable to include it as the wrath effect I want to test out.
If Hallowed Burial was a card under consideration, I think Terminus compares pretty favorably. A 1 tax for a potential 3W discount seems more than fair.
I'm not recommending the spell for particularly small cubes or anything, but for people that have experience with the spell, how did it perform?
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I've just removed it with the GTC update and kept Hallowed Burial. It's simply too rarely that the Miracle comes up that it's important. And when it does come up it's not always that it's relevant.
The only time the miracle is good is when combined with Brainstorm or Jace, TMS, and that have come up one time in all its time in my cube.
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And I've found the 'miracle' aspect of the mechanic to much more palatable in Cube than in constructed.
-AA
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Maybe it's just my playgroup that have failed to build around it properly... I might give it another try for 6 months to see if anythings changed.
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And there are few situations vs. aggro and midrange in which a naturally drawn Terminus wouldn't be cast for the deep discount.
Kill 2 of their creatures on turn 2 for W? Sure!
Kill a 4/4 on turn 4 for W? Sure!
-AA
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If this were constructed, I'd understand. But this is a 'fun' format, and I'm completely down with getting peeled on for a good story.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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Not realizing you have drawn a card seems pretty stupid, no? Especially if you drafted a miracle card, then put in your deck during construction. Ok, everybody does stupid things late at night, but either your group is relaxed enough to take back stuff like that or it is strict enough to man up after a moment of stupidity.
Graveyard order matter cards feel natural to me as I did most of my competitve play when you just didn't mess with your graveyard unless you wanted a warning.
You know your playgroup best though, but people can adapt and learn (especially through making mistakes).
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I don't think Wrath and Day are interchangeable and I think Terminus is better than Day at 360 because it provides a much different effect that you'd rather have over an inferior Wrath variant.
There are bad beat top decks already built into the game. I dislike that the mechanic just enhances the possibility of them. I wouldn't be upset to have them see play in another person's cube, I might even draft/play them if I was building a deck that needed them, but I'd feel really dirty doing it. Precisely because we play for fun, I'd rather cards that I find unfun, not be in my cube.
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
They really are not unfun, and can lead to lots of laughs and stories later on.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
That's interesting. We've never had a player miss a Miracle trigger.
I don't necessarily think they're interchangeable, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it Inferior. I've run regenerators alongside DOJ to make it favorable for me to resolve it more often than I've run into a regenerator that beats me because of that clause. And in the other 99% of situations, they play exactly the same.
I do agree that playing Terminus over DOJ certainly mixes up the effects more and gives more variety.
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On the other hand, the new undying creatures and so on make the effect more valuable. It's the best version of this effect that we have and as such I would consider it quite runnable. I would always draft and play Wrath/DoJ above this though, for any deck wanting the ability.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
It's exciting and powerful at times and if that's what you're looking for in your cube it's a great option. Terminus does interact well with specific artifacts like Top, Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack,... etc. it means it doesn't work as good with Regrowth, Eternal Witness, and Snapcaster Mage.
But it is unreliable and expensive in hand...
Rather than unfun it has proven to be helpful in holding back degenerate plays of others. I guess my group feels differently about sweepers. They are viewed as saving someone from losing more often than as winning the game themselves(even if that is what they are doing agaist an aggro deck with an empty grip). Miricles are so popular in my group that I included Terminus from day one, Bonfire as soon as I traded for one and Revenge of the hunted just recently. There are lots of ways to abuse them or ramp into them.
Terminus in particular is locked in my cube. Every control deck wants it and I find people are willing to splash it more than wrath. 2 white at 6 isn't bad, but at 4 yo uhave to be W/X not X/w especially when it is often 1 white if you need it early game. I saw it played in a grixis control deck and a u/r counter burn very light on white sources. I asked my buddy who drafted both of those what he was thinking and he said it got dumped to chrome mox or looted a couple of times but with mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder etc in his deck it was a house.
I am just so surprised peple complain about the variability of miracle cards so much(especially terminus). Lots of cards have a value differential. Some very powerful cards are quite variable like goyf, bob, fast mana, fatties, wheel of fortune, regrowth......... Maybe not as much as miracles but drafting and deck building is all about making cards combine and synergize. Miracle is such a unique mechanic I think people are missing out not including it.
And the fun arguement. I don't want ot go there but if we are taking out cards that are sometimes broken and othertimes not great we can drop about 50 360 staples that are combo oriented. Next time someone crushes you wit ha bonfire or such, just smile and not and remeber all those games you did the crushing and the opponent didn't tilt the table on you. Games are games and losing is sweet because it makes winning feel so good.