Is Tinker a good enough package on its own if i am cutting the artifact.dec support, like Metalworker, Tolarian Academy, but leaving in mana rocks and equipment and the large artifact creatures for Reanimation strategies?
Yes. Tinker is a broken 1 card combo and as long as you have something like Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil, and Battlesphere around for the reanimator and ramp decks, Tinker is a great card.
Is Tinker a good enough package on its own if i am cutting the artifact.dec support, like Metalworker, Tolarian Academy, but leaving in mana rocks and equipment and the large artifact creatures for Reanimation strategies?
Yes. I also run Staff of Nin for an alternate target. As long as your have 3-4 large creatures also. Should be enough.
Also don't get too focused on tinker as a blowout card that gets blightsteel type cards. Sometimes you get a deck where tinker can go and get Batterskull or Icy Manipulator or something like that and it's perfectly fine as an enlightened tutor type toolbox card. With ETutor you sacrifice your draw but have to pay full price, with Tinker you sacrifice a card in play and often get a mana discount. It's just a good value card even when it isn't a blowout.
Also don't get too focused on tinker as a blowout card that gets blightsteel type cards. Sometimes you get a deck where tinker can go and get Batterskull or Icy Manipulator or something like that and it's perfectly fine as an enlightened tutor type toolbox card. With ETutor you sacrifice your draw but have to pay full price, with Tinker you sacrifice a card in play and often get a mana discount. It's just a good value card even when it isn't a blowout.
Right on. Wurmcoil engine is also better than average, and he still goes in regular decks.
Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are also reasonable higher-end targets, but they are unnecessary. (I would only run them because they also support reanimator or ramp.)
I've had qualms about simply adding Tinker in my cube, because I'm concerned about the number of targets for both clauses. I think I've gotten to the point where the number of targets to find have gotten very respectable (I might still add Inkwell/Sphinx if there's too few), but I'm concerned whether there's enough cheap targets to sac.
What do you say? Would you simply put in Tinker, or are there other things which you would add alongside him?
My favorite sacrifice target is Perilous Myr, for obvious reasons. You already have it in your list. Other fine sacrifices are signets, and you do run all 10. You also run Black Vise; if your opponent is already down to 3 cards in hand, why not sacrifice it for something better?
And then, any artifact costing 3 or less is a doable sacrifice, and you've got plenty of them - Strix, one-counter Chalice, Needle/Revoker, Crystal Shard, maybe even Solemn Simulacrum sometimes.
I'd try to just put Tinker in your list as is, and see if it works for you.
You should be ale to add Tinker to pretty much any list and have it do work. So long as you have big robots and artifacts that cost less than three mana, it'll do fine.
Ok, keep Tinker has been called and heard. What about a card like Academy Ruins? Is it good enough if it is just a value return? I'm not running Mindslaver, and can't think of too much that would really get much use out of it. What are others thoughts on Academy Ruins?
The 'mana penalty' is pretty low-impact if you have ANY artifacts worth returning. Ruins is a sick card that belongs in decks that can use it, and I'm having trouble imagining situations in which you would want to side this card in. If your deck is artifact-important enough already, why would you then side it in instead of playing it main?!?
The 'mana penalty' is pretty low-impact if you have ANY artifacts worth returning. Ruins is a sick card that belongs in decks that can use it, and I'm having trouble imagining situations in which you would want to side this card in. If your deck is artifact-important enough already, why would you then side it in instead of playing it main?!?
-AA
Most artifacts sit on board and don't kill themselves. If you aren't reliably putting artifacts into your graveyard, you can side it in if your opponents can.
I could be wrong, though. It does depend on what artifacts you are running and how easy it is to blow them up.
Most artifacts sit on board and don't kill themselves. If you aren't reliably putting artifacts into your graveyard, you can side it in if your opponents can.
I could be wrong, though. It does depend on what artifacts you are running and how easy it is to blow them up.
Every deck can blow them up if you are playing artifact creatures (or should be able to, anyway), and others like Explosives/Oblivion Stone/Nev Disk etc. blow themselves up; the vast majority of the above are good enough to want to play them more than once. Basically, if you have good artifacts that are good enough to play after turn 4-5 and blue mana, you should be playing Ruins in your deck. If the only artifacts in your deck are some mana rocks and other things you don't want to play a second time, then there is no point in bringing it in anyway.
I see what you mean, but it feels like a weak argument to me. I'd rather play Volrath's Stronghold or Genesis most of the time. Sure, you can recur artifact sweepers, but they are all soooo sloooow...
So unless someone blows up your Jitte or swords, it feels like a narrow card to me.
If you've already got Stronghold and Genesis, how many of those effects do you really need? Is the value from equipment and artifact sweepers really worth the slot? I think it definitely is if you are supporting an archetype, have power, or a higher than average artifact density, but I'm not so convinced of it's usefulness otherwise.
It is a pretty sweet card though. I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it.
I see what you mean, but it feels like a weak argument to me. I'd rather play Volrath's Stronghold or Genesis most of the time. Sure, you can recur artifact sweepers, but they are all soooo sloooow...
So unless someone blows up your Jitte or swords, it feels like a narrow card to me.
If you've already got Stronghold and Genesis, how many of those effects do you really need? Is the value from equipment and artifact sweepers really worth the slot? I think it definitely is if you are supporting an archetype, have power, or a higher than average artifact density, but I'm not so convinced of it's usefulness otherwise.
It is a pretty sweet card though. I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it.
What about the argument is weak? If you have good enough artifacts to play, they are most likely good enough to be played twice. If you don't, then you don't play the Ruins at all, and there wouldn't be any reason to sideboard it in. Are you debating the merits of the card itself? If so, that's different than calling it a 'sideboard' card, because there are about 0 situations I of which I can think where it would be correct to side the card in instead of just playing in maindeck.
As far as Stronghold and Genesis are concerned:
- Genesis is pretty poor nowadays I've come to learn; even decks that want it no longer really use it. A lot of green decks wind up having to cast it as a Durkwood Boars before getting any 'cube-level' value from it, and that's not where I want to be. As far as comparing it to Ruins/Stronghold, Genesis forces you to spend the mana on your own turn, which is a big sad trombone in my book. Keep in mind: All of this is coming from the guy who values historical context more than most in Cube, and I cut it.
Oh, and it has to be in your graveyard AND have green mana to use. These are things that are much more difficult for the 'artifact' decks to have than blue mana.
- Stronghold is the best direct comparison, but then again it costs a different color of mana (black) than the 'artifact mana color' (blue). There is also a higher possibility that it gets taken by other decks, as well as the fact that it doesn't return equipment, artifact removal spells, utility spells, etc. Sometimes even returning an Icy Manipulator is well worth it!
I'll be honest: I don't think being powered or unpowered makes that much of a difference with Academy Ruins. While your powered decks might have more artifact mana in them, are you really going to be returning that destroyed Mox that often? Maybe the multi-mana rocks get some return play, but I'd wager that the targets are mostly the same in both styles of Cubes.
And honestly, in the discussion thread of the 'Artifact deck', this is a little crazy. Of COURSE you want this card in the artifact deck, if you support the artifact deck archetype in your Cube! I'm not even sure what the % of artifacts would have to be in a Cube to not include this card.
He wasn't asking about the value of the card in the artifact deck, but about it's value when you don't support this archetype -- the same question that was asked of Tinker. (If I'm understanding correctly.)
You've got to have a few artifacts in your deck to play it to your advantage. Not quite as many as Goblin Welder, but it does very little on it's own. You could probably chain some Baleful Strixes, Perilous Myrs, Solemn Simulacrums, Wurmcoil Engines, Precursor Golems, or Triskelions... which is sweet and all, but not something that you need to make those cards great. Especially if it's going to hurt your mana and is only available to blue decks.
Maybe it's a mistake, but I'm not too impressed by it in this scenario.
Now, if you actually support an artifact deck archetype, then you'd be stupid not to include it -- it's just really good.
I think Genesis is sick. I like it more than Ruins as far as recursion effects go. I's a threat and it generates CA from beyond the grave, which is perfect for shoring up green's sour matchup with dedicated control decks. Plus, it's a bonkers with Sneak Attack! Super-awesome.
Retra, you did understand correctly. Thank you all for your comments on this. I was previously supporting the the Artifact deck. When I cut my cube down to 450, due to on average drafting with only 6 people, the Artifact deck wasn't being drafted. So I'm making the cuts now, and wasn't sure which cards really were good enough on their own with less artifact support.
I think having the 4/4 beater is decent against control too. I don't mind casting it, using it for the body, and then using it as a CA engine against control when the game goes long.
CA wins games. Cutting Genesis is crazy talk IMO. It saddens me to hear people are doing it honestly. I'd play it over every single other 5 drop green has because of all the things you can do with it. Who cares if it isn't the most powerful 5 drop in a vacuum?
Ruins is a great card and if you support any kind of Ux artifact deck, I don't see why you wouldn't want it in your deck. Pitching artifacts for draw spell costs or discard effects and then getting them back later in the game when you can cast them is a solid play. Not to mention how stupid that land is if you play all the power cards (reusable black lotus anyone)?
Just off the top of my head, I would play Thragtusk over Genesis as the last five drop. It hits harder, has an ETB trigger that turns games around, and gives you the benefit of Genesis (getting a creature when it dies) once for free instead of paying 2G + the creature's cost multiple times. And both of its triggers cater to blink interactions, which I would think also falls in the category of "fun things you can do with it"
I agree that Academy Ruins is one of those lands where the risk/reward is extremely good. It's also one of the few two-card combos available to cubes with Mindslaver, although the prohibitive cost to assemble the combo means it's lost ground to cheaper ones like Splinter Twin/Pestermite.
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Yes. I also run Staff of Nin for an alternate target. As long as your have 3-4 large creatures also. Should be enough.
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Right on. Wurmcoil engine is also better than average, and he still goes in regular decks.
Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are also reasonable higher-end targets, but they are unnecessary. (I would only run them because they also support reanimator or ramp.)
Tinker is such a busted card...
My favorite sacrifice target is Perilous Myr, for obvious reasons. You already have it in your list. Other fine sacrifices are signets, and you do run all 10. You also run Black Vise; if your opponent is already down to 3 cards in hand, why not sacrifice it for something better?
And then, any artifact costing 3 or less is a doable sacrifice, and you've got plenty of them - Strix, one-counter Chalice, Needle/Revoker, Crystal Shard, maybe even Solemn Simulacrum sometimes.
I'd try to just put Tinker in your list as is, and see if it works for you.
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Not really. If you have a couple of things worth recycling you main deck it. Otherwise you dont. Its extremely powerful in those situations.
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-AA
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Most artifacts sit on board and don't kill themselves. If you aren't reliably putting artifacts into your graveyard, you can side it in if your opponents can.
I could be wrong, though. It does depend on what artifacts you are running and how easy it is to blow them up.
Every deck can blow them up if you are playing artifact creatures (or should be able to, anyway), and others like Explosives/Oblivion Stone/Nev Disk etc. blow themselves up; the vast majority of the above are good enough to want to play them more than once. Basically, if you have good artifacts that are good enough to play after turn 4-5 and blue mana, you should be playing Ruins in your deck. If the only artifacts in your deck are some mana rocks and other things you don't want to play a second time, then there is no point in bringing it in anyway.
Know what I mean?
-AA
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So unless someone blows up your Jitte or swords, it feels like a narrow card to me.
If you've already got Stronghold and Genesis, how many of those effects do you really need? Is the value from equipment and artifact sweepers really worth the slot? I think it definitely is if you are supporting an archetype, have power, or a higher than average artifact density, but I'm not so convinced of it's usefulness otherwise.
It is a pretty sweet card though. I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it.
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What about the argument is weak? If you have good enough artifacts to play, they are most likely good enough to be played twice. If you don't, then you don't play the Ruins at all, and there wouldn't be any reason to sideboard it in. Are you debating the merits of the card itself? If so, that's different than calling it a 'sideboard' card, because there are about 0 situations I of which I can think where it would be correct to side the card in instead of just playing in maindeck.
As far as Stronghold and Genesis are concerned:
- Genesis is pretty poor nowadays I've come to learn; even decks that want it no longer really use it. A lot of green decks wind up having to cast it as a Durkwood Boars before getting any 'cube-level' value from it, and that's not where I want to be. As far as comparing it to Ruins/Stronghold, Genesis forces you to spend the mana on your own turn, which is a big sad trombone in my book. Keep in mind: All of this is coming from the guy who values historical context more than most in Cube, and I cut it.
Oh, and it has to be in your graveyard AND have green mana to use. These are things that are much more difficult for the 'artifact' decks to have than blue mana.
- Stronghold is the best direct comparison, but then again it costs a different color of mana (black) than the 'artifact mana color' (blue). There is also a higher possibility that it gets taken by other decks, as well as the fact that it doesn't return equipment, artifact removal spells, utility spells, etc. Sometimes even returning an Icy Manipulator is well worth it!
I'll be honest: I don't think being powered or unpowered makes that much of a difference with Academy Ruins. While your powered decks might have more artifact mana in them, are you really going to be returning that destroyed Mox that often? Maybe the multi-mana rocks get some return play, but I'd wager that the targets are mostly the same in both styles of Cubes.
And honestly, in the discussion thread of the 'Artifact deck', this is a little crazy. Of COURSE you want this card in the artifact deck, if you support the artifact deck archetype in your Cube! I'm not even sure what the % of artifacts would have to be in a Cube to not include this card.
-AA
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You've got to have a few artifacts in your deck to play it to your advantage. Not quite as many as Goblin Welder, but it does very little on it's own. You could probably chain some Baleful Strixes, Perilous Myrs, Solemn Simulacrums, Wurmcoil Engines, Precursor Golems, or Triskelions... which is sweet and all, but not something that you need to make those cards great. Especially if it's going to hurt your mana and is only available to blue decks.
Maybe it's a mistake, but I'm not too impressed by it in this scenario.
Now, if you actually support an artifact deck archetype, then you'd be stupid not to include it -- it's just really good.
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Ruins is a great card and if you support any kind of Ux artifact deck, I don't see why you wouldn't want it in your deck. Pitching artifacts for draw spell costs or discard effects and then getting them back later in the game when you can cast them is a solid play. Not to mention how stupid that land is if you play all the power cards (reusable black lotus anyone)?
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I agree that Academy Ruins is one of those lands where the risk/reward is extremely good. It's also one of the few two-card combos available to cubes with Mindslaver, although the prohibitive cost to assemble the combo means it's lost ground to cheaper ones like Splinter Twin/Pestermite.
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