My personal Gruul section is pretty lame at the moment (I am waiting for Gatecrash here something fierce, as I don't own copies of any of the five above other than Fires... I'm working on BBE, believe me).
I currently run Fires, Wild Cantor, Wreak Havoc, Predatory Advantage and Exploding Borders. Definitely needs more beef.
We use Loam Lion just as much as Kird Ape at the moment. W/g aggro is very much a legitimate deck in my playgroup.
Understood. My point wasn't that loam lion can never be good, it's that there is actually a difference between the two, and that some cubes can be built for Rg to be good but Wg to be bad.
In Cube it's more all about having your colors do what you want them to do. If your RG and WG cards are all about mid range and control, and if your Cube is geared towards RG and WG ramping into mid range, then obviously Kird Ape and Loam Lion are not great. If you support RG and WG aggro, then clearly Kird Ape and Loam Lion are amongst the best cards for these archetypes, and clearly the best 1 drops on offense.
Yes, it's about what you want them to do. My point, though, is that they're separate colors and you can want them to do different things. You can support WG midrange and RG aggro, and your cube might want Kird Ape but not Loam Lion.
Understood. My point wasn't that loam lion can never be good, it's that there is actually a difference between the two, and that some cubes can be built for Rg to be good but Wg to be bad.
I don't see how. I mean, you support white aggro and red aggro. And sometimes, green is you small secondary color in red aggro decks. You should be able to do the exact same thing with the same cards in W/g, and have it work just fine. So it's not a support issue (if R/g can work, W/g can work with the same cards) it's a preference issue.
You can splash the same green cards in a white aggro deck that you splash in a red aggro deck, but white doesn't have the same problems red does, so it doesn't need those cards as much as it needs other things.
For example, a red aggro deck often needs a little more punch to finish things off and make their little creatures relevant in the late game. They splash green and pick up Rancor. White, on the other hand, uses shadow creatures and anthems to accomplish the same goal, and those tools are available within the color.
Red is also often playing a land destruction game, and so you'll see them splash for Ice Storm, Bramblecrush, etc, something white doesn't need because it can't get a critical density of those effects.
Conversely, Red has no problem getting early roadblocks out of the way. All of the efficient burn allows them to remove something like a Porcelain Legionnaire or other opposing 1-3 drops so they can continue to beat down. White's removal largely either sets your damage race back (StP) or accelerates your opponent (PtE), or costs more than that (Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters), so you see white needing to splash for some removal like Lightning Bolt or Go for the Throat, which red doesn't need to do as often.
I often find my white aggro decks willing to splash green as the second color to bring in powerful, needed or synergistic effects. Be it token makers for the white anthems, cheap artifact removal on a stick, beefy 3-4 drops, powerful curve toppers, naturalize effects on bodies, and so on. As well as some aggressive ramp, which white can't get anywhere else.
What green token makers for white anthems are you playing in your aggro decks? The only green token maker in my cube is Deranged Hermit, which certainly isn't aggro (unless I'm missing something, which is always possible)
Aren't you the one who is always telling me how great Kor Sanctifiers is, in white, and that's why you don't need to splash green for that effect because white has it?
I'm not saying you can't ever splash green in white, sure it happens, but when it happens in my cube, it turns into a midrange deck, because the cards end up being larger beaters. When it stays an aggro deck that would want aggressive 1drops (like Loam Lion), usually white isn't splashing green in that instance.
What green token makers for white anthems are you playing in your aggro decks? The only green token maker in my cube is Deranged Hermit, which certainly isn't aggro (unless I'm missing something, which is always possible)
I think Deranged Hermit is one of the most powerful curve-toppers for aggressive decks in the cube. There's usually room for a 5-drop at the top of the curve, and if Hermit is available, he's my creature of choice. Especially with white's battle cry and anthem effects. I have no qualms with curving from Ajani Goldmane into Deranged Hermit. None at all.
Green also has Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk Relentless, and Master of the Wild Hunt, which are pretty sick 4-drops, great with anthems, and perfectly fine in aggressive builds.
Aren't you the one who is always telling me how great Kor Sanctifiers is, in white, and that's why you don't need to splash green for that effect because white has it?
So because I have 1 white Disenchant on a stick in the entire cube, there would never be a need to pick the effect up from green? Come on. One of the advantages of having the Sanctifiers is that I don't have to dive into green for those effects. When he's in my pool. But as I'm sure you know, you don't get every card you want in the pool every draft.
I'm not saying you can't ever splash green in white, sure it happens, but when it happens in my cube, it turns into a midrange deck, because the cards end up being larger beaters. When it stays an aggro deck that would want aggressive 1drops (like Loam Lion), usually white isn't splashing green in that instance.
FWIW, no non-green aggro deck I've ever played has splashed for Deranged Hermit. Certainly no white-based aggro deck. There are much better ways to spend five mana if you're in aggro.
FWIW, no non-green aggro deck I've ever played has splashed for Deranged Hermit. Certainly no white-based aggro deck.
I'm not talking about splashing for it. I'm talking about a 2-color aggro deck. And white/green aggro with a token/anthem backbone is a strong decktype, and Hermit is a super-boss in it.
There are much better ways to spend five mana if you're in aggro.
Just like everything else, it certainly depends on the deck. There are a lot of cases where there's nothing better to do with your 5 mana than play a Hermit with your 5th mana source. Anthems of any kind, Ajani Goldmane and Sarkhan Vol are certainly strong setups for Hermit to be one of the best possible T5 plays available.
U/G tempo decks following up an Opposition with a Hermit is also pretty awesome. And the shell can definitely be aggressive, if you support green aggro, that is.
Here's a sample decklist from a recent draft using a GU/w aggro shell:
Just like everything else, it certainly depends on the deck. There are a lot of cases where there's nothing better to do with your 5 mana than play a Hermit with your 5th mana source. Anthems of any kind, Ajani Goldmane and Sarkhan Vol are certainly strong setups for Hermit to be one of the best possible T5 plays available.
It's possible that's our different definitions of aggro may be the issue here. W/G tokens is a very strong and often aggressive deck. Lots of mana dorks, anthems, token producers, and a splash of disruption. Even though it's more aggressive than ho-hum midrange, I'd still probably call it a mid-range strategy given it's critical turn is a couple turns later.
I expect most aggro decks' curves to stop at four. These decks want to spend turn 4-5 playing Geddons, burn, equipment+equip, Wasteland/Stripmine, Winter Orb, etc.
That's a blue/green "aggro" deck splashing white for ravages. It doesn't even have Loam Lion. Importantly, it also has multiple green one drops that my cube doesn't run, which kind of proves my point: some cubes are built such that W/G aggro isn't good. And if your w/g aggro decks require the green one-drops, then my point stands.
I also agree with Kojiro. Aggro decks usually top out at 4. Once you're trying to play Ajani into Hermit, it ends up being a midrange tokens deck.
It's possible that's our different definitions of aggro may be the issue here. W/G tokens is a very strong and often aggressive deck. Lots of mana dorks, anthems, token producers, and a splash of disruption. Even though it's more aggressive than ho-hum midrange, I'd still probably call it a mid-range strategy given it's critical turn is a couple turns later.
W/G mid-range tokens is also definitely a thing, but it's different from aggro. All the 1-2 drops in the mid-range deck are ramp creatures, and there's a lot of 4 and 5-drops that push the token theme harder. An aggro deck with a token backdrop is a different list altogether. It uses aggro creatures that curve into anthems and token makers. It's an aggressive deck, with usually 2-3 4-drops and maybe a 5-drop if I can snag Hermit or Cloudgoat.
I expect most aggro decks' curves to stop at four. These decks want to spend turn 4-5 playing Geddons, burn, equipment+equip, Wasteland/Stripmine, Winter Orb, etc.
The vast majority of them do. But adding in a single 5-drop as a curve topper doesn't change the entire deck's identity from an aggressive shell to a mid-range one.
Importantly, it also has multiple green one drops that my cube doesn't run, which kind of proves my point: some cubes are built such that W/G aggro isn't good. And if your w/g aggro decks require the green one-drops, then my point stands.
They don't require them. That list (which was U/G aggro) does, but that's an entirely different deck than Selesnya aggro is.
I also agree with Kojiro. Aggro decks usually top out at 4. Once you're trying to play Ajani into Hermit, it ends up being a midrange tokens deck.
Mine do too. But having a sole 5-drop doesn't suddenly make my 2-power 1-drop deck into a midrange thing. It's still aggro.
I can be playing a hard aggro deck with the ability to curve Ajani into Hermit; not the entire gameplan like a traditional W/G token mid-range deck does.
Any additions from Gatecrash? Skargg Guildmage seems a bit weak, Clan Defiance seems borderline, Ghor-Clan Rampager may be OK. Domri Rade is hard to evaluate but may be good enough. Thoughts?
The Guildmage and the Rampager are both solid for C/Ubes with bigger multicolor sections. Rade is good if you play a ton of creature-saturated RG mid-range decks. The other cards aren't good enough.
Any additions from Gatecrash? Skargg Guildmage seems a bit weak, Clan Defiance seems borderline, Ghor-Clan Rampager may be OK. Domri Rade is hard to evaluate but may be good enough. Thoughts?
Nothing big.
My current guild lineup is:
3 lands - dual/fetch/shock
4 cards
1. Bloodbraid (amazing)
2. Huntmaster (another spicy option)
3 and 4 is where things deviate. I've run kird ape and cut it and put it back in....it is really an inner debate others touched upon about running weenie guys or going midrange. Personal options overall. At the moment raging ravine and kird ape satisfy #3 and #4.
I want to test some combination of Ghor-Clan Rampager, Clan Defiance, and Rubblebelt Raiders. Again, the shift to these cards would be a philosophical change of what R/G does in my cube. I've found Ravine to be an X-factor more than it's not. As the game progresses, this thing gets nasty. Rubblebelt Raiders has great art (actually a factor for me) on top of a baller ability. I can't tell if it's a win-more situation but when combined with even a decent sized army -- look out! Toss Raiders alongside a small swarm and Hellrider....start giggling.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
My current guild lineup is:
3 lands - dual/fetch/shock
4 cards
1. Bloodbraid (amazing)
2. Huntmaster (another spicy option)
3 and 4 is where things deviate. I've run kird ape and cut it and put it back in....it is really an inner debate others touched upon about running weenie guys or going midrange. Personal options overall. At the moment raging ravine and kird ape satisfy #3 and #4.
I want to test some combination of Ghor-Clan Rampager, Clan Defiance, and Rubblebelt Raiders. Again, the shift to these cards would be a philosophical change of what R/G does in my cube. I've found Ravine to be an X-factor more than it's not. As the game progresses, this thing gets nasty. Rubblebelt Raiders has great art (actually a factor for me) on top of a baller ability. I can't tell if it's a win-more situation but when combined with even a decent sized army -- look out! Toss Raiders alongside a small swarm and Hellrider....start giggling.
Sarkhan Vol is a fantastic cube card. Raging Ravine and Kird Ape are probably better than the new Gruul offerings. It depends a little on what gaps are left by G/R in the monocoloured sections; I'm running Boggart Ram-Gang, since although it's objectively weaker than something like Huntmaster, I've already got Sarkhan and BBE and plenty of four drops in green and red, with very few 3 CMC beaters. It also offers an option for G/x and R/x decks too.
So for that reason I would recommend limiting the number of options at one particular CMC in gold, if that makes sense. Rampager is very good but not as good as the 'walker, BBE or Huntsmaster.
Sarkhan Vol is a fantastic cube card. Raging Ravine and Kird Ape are probably better than the new Gruul offerings. It depends a little on what gaps are left by G/R in the monocoloured sections; I'm running Boggart Ram-Gang, since although it's objectively weaker than something like Huntmaster, I've already got Sarkhan and BBE and plenty of four drops in green and red, with very few 3 CMC beaters. It also offers an option for G/x and R/x decks too.
So for that reason I would recommend limiting the number of options at one particular CMC in gold, if that makes sense. Rampager is very good but not as good as the 'walker, BBE or Huntsmaster.
So funny you say that because I absolutely hate SV. Like with a passion. I think he's just a 4cc spell, I don't like his flavor, and I've had a lot of bad experiences using him. Nevertheless, you make a terrific point about curve though. That's kind of my attraction to Ravine. It's a 0 drop AND 3 casting creature in one. Hear me out:
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
So funny you say that because I absolutely hate SV. Like with a passion. I think he's just a 4cc spell, I don't like his flavor, and I've had a lot of bad experiences using him. Nevertheless, you make a terrific point about curve though. That's kind of my attraction to Ravine. It's a 0 drop AND 3 casting creature in one. Hear me out:
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I have quite the dissenting opinion of Sarkhan Vol. I'll just link to what I said about him 3-4 years ago instead of retreading old ground. Starts at this post, and continues further down:
Sarkhan Vol, while not the best walker in cube, has been solid for us, and goes ultimate on a fair regualr basis. He does occasionally suffer from a packed casting cost and some strange anti synergy.
Burning-Tree Emissary is surprisingly good after playing against it in Gatecrash Sealed. The card is really strong in aggro plans and can put out a lot of early pressure. My two dream case goals for it are:
However, realistically I just see casting it turn 2 or 3 and playing an additional card that turn. I mean there's nothing wrong with casting an Emissary and being able to drop a Skullclamp+Equip onto the Emissary on turn 2. Even just playing Emissary into another 2 drop generally means you'll have 4+ power on the field... And later in the game it does function as a free spell, so even if you top deck it post Wrath you can play it and still cast that Hellrider or whatever to better rebuild your board.
Yes, it's not a great top deck late game, but most aggro cards aren't amazing in that regard, with the exception of like Goblin Guide.
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The top five is:
My personal Gruul section is pretty lame at the moment (I am waiting for Gatecrash here something fierce, as I don't own copies of any of the five above other than Fires... I'm working on BBE, believe me).
I currently run Fires, Wild Cantor, Wreak Havoc, Predatory Advantage and Exploding Borders. Definitely needs more beef.
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Understood. My point wasn't that loam lion can never be good, it's that there is actually a difference between the two, and that some cubes can be built for Rg to be good but Wg to be bad.
Yes, it's about what you want them to do. My point, though, is that they're separate colors and you can want them to do different things. You can support WG midrange and RG aggro, and your cube might want Kird Ape but not Loam Lion.
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I don't see how. I mean, you support white aggro and red aggro. And sometimes, green is you small secondary color in red aggro decks. You should be able to do the exact same thing with the same cards in W/g, and have it work just fine. So it's not a support issue (if R/g can work, W/g can work with the same cards) it's a preference issue.
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For example, a red aggro deck often needs a little more punch to finish things off and make their little creatures relevant in the late game. They splash green and pick up Rancor. White, on the other hand, uses shadow creatures and anthems to accomplish the same goal, and those tools are available within the color.
Red is also often playing a land destruction game, and so you'll see them splash for Ice Storm, Bramblecrush, etc, something white doesn't need because it can't get a critical density of those effects.
Conversely, Red has no problem getting early roadblocks out of the way. All of the efficient burn allows them to remove something like a Porcelain Legionnaire or other opposing 1-3 drops so they can continue to beat down. White's removal largely either sets your damage race back (StP) or accelerates your opponent (PtE), or costs more than that (Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters), so you see white needing to splash for some removal like Lightning Bolt or Go for the Throat, which red doesn't need to do as often.
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Aren't you the one who is always telling me how great Kor Sanctifiers is, in white, and that's why you don't need to splash green for that effect because white has it?
I'm not saying you can't ever splash green in white, sure it happens, but when it happens in my cube, it turns into a midrange deck, because the cards end up being larger beaters. When it stays an aggro deck that would want aggressive 1drops (like Loam Lion), usually white isn't splashing green in that instance.
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I think Deranged Hermit is one of the most powerful curve-toppers for aggressive decks in the cube. There's usually room for a 5-drop at the top of the curve, and if Hermit is available, he's my creature of choice. Especially with white's battle cry and anthem effects. I have no qualms with curving from Ajani Goldmane into Deranged Hermit. None at all.
Green also has Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk Relentless, and Master of the Wild Hunt, which are pretty sick 4-drops, great with anthems, and perfectly fine in aggressive builds.
So because I have 1 white Disenchant on a stick in the entire cube, there would never be a need to pick the effect up from green? Come on. One of the advantages of having the Sanctifiers is that I don't have to dive into green for those effects. When he's in my pool. But as I'm sure you know, you don't get every card you want in the pool every draft.
And quite often for me, it is.
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FWIW, no non-green aggro deck I've ever played has splashed for Deranged Hermit. Certainly no white-based aggro deck. There are much better ways to spend five mana if you're in aggro.
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It's certainly getting up there for me.
I'm not talking about splashing for it. I'm talking about a 2-color aggro deck. And white/green aggro with a token/anthem backbone is a strong decktype, and Hermit is a super-boss in it.
Just like everything else, it certainly depends on the deck. There are a lot of cases where there's nothing better to do with your 5 mana than play a Hermit with your 5th mana source. Anthems of any kind, Ajani Goldmane and Sarkhan Vol are certainly strong setups for Hermit to be one of the best possible T5 plays available.
U/G tempo decks following up an Opposition with a Hermit is also pretty awesome. And the shell can definitely be aggressive, if you support green aggro, that is.
Here's a sample decklist from a recent draft using a GU/w aggro shell:
1x Arbor Elf
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Dryad Militant
1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1x Jungle Lion
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Looter il-Kor
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Man-o'-War
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
1x Pouncing Jaguar
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Trygon Predator
1x Twinblade Slasher
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Wolfbitten Captive
1x Miscalculation
1x Opposition
1x Ravages of War
1x Time Walk
//Land
1x Ancient Tomb
5x Forest
1x Grand Coliseum
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Island
1x Simic Growth Chamber
1x Treetop Village
1x Tropical Island
1x Windswept Heath
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I expect most aggro decks' curves to stop at four. These decks want to spend turn 4-5 playing Geddons, burn, equipment+equip, Wasteland/Stripmine, Winter Orb, etc.
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I also agree with Kojiro. Aggro decks usually top out at 4. Once you're trying to play Ajani into Hermit, it ends up being a midrange tokens deck.
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W/G mid-range tokens is also definitely a thing, but it's different from aggro. All the 1-2 drops in the mid-range deck are ramp creatures, and there's a lot of 4 and 5-drops that push the token theme harder. An aggro deck with a token backdrop is a different list altogether. It uses aggro creatures that curve into anthems and token makers. It's an aggressive deck, with usually 2-3 4-drops and maybe a 5-drop if I can snag Hermit or Cloudgoat.
The vast majority of them do. But adding in a single 5-drop as a curve topper doesn't change the entire deck's identity from an aggressive shell to a mid-range one.
That list wasn't an example of WG aggro. It was an example of an aggressive deck that runs a lone 5-drop (Hermit) as a curve topper.
They don't require them. That list (which was U/G aggro) does, but that's an entirely different deck than Selesnya aggro is.
Mine do too. But having a sole 5-drop doesn't suddenly make my 2-power 1-drop deck into a midrange thing. It's still aggro.
I can be playing a hard aggro deck with the ability to curve Ajani into Hermit; not the entire gameplan like a traditional W/G token mid-range deck does.
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Nothing big.
My current guild lineup is:
3 lands - dual/fetch/shock
4 cards
1. Bloodbraid (amazing)
2. Huntmaster (another spicy option)
3 and 4 is where things deviate. I've run kird ape and cut it and put it back in....it is really an inner debate others touched upon about running weenie guys or going midrange. Personal options overall. At the moment raging ravine and kird ape satisfy #3 and #4.
I want to test some combination of Ghor-Clan Rampager, Clan Defiance, and Rubblebelt Raiders. Again, the shift to these cards would be a philosophical change of what R/G does in my cube. I've found Ravine to be an X-factor more than it's not. As the game progresses, this thing gets nasty. Rubblebelt Raiders has great art (actually a factor for me) on top of a baller ability. I can't tell if it's a win-more situation but when combined with even a decent sized army -- look out! Toss Raiders alongside a small swarm and Hellrider....start giggling.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Sarkhan Vol is a fantastic cube card. Raging Ravine and Kird Ape are probably better than the new Gruul offerings. It depends a little on what gaps are left by G/R in the monocoloured sections; I'm running Boggart Ram-Gang, since although it's objectively weaker than something like Huntmaster, I've already got Sarkhan and BBE and plenty of four drops in green and red, with very few 3 CMC beaters. It also offers an option for G/x and R/x decks too.
So for that reason I would recommend limiting the number of options at one particular CMC in gold, if that makes sense. Rampager is very good but not as good as the 'walker, BBE or Huntsmaster.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
So funny you say that because I absolutely hate SV. Like with a passion. I think he's just a 4cc spell, I don't like his flavor, and I've had a lot of bad experiences using him. Nevertheless, you make a terrific point about curve though. That's kind of my attraction to Ravine. It's a 0 drop AND 3 casting creature in one. Hear me out:
0 - Ravine
1 - Kird
2 - nothing
3 - Activate Ravine
4 - BBE + Huntmaster
SV is also far behind BBE and Huntmaster for cube space. If I'm goign 4cc, you bet I'm going to throw down those 2 baddies before the walker.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
How ca it be a 3 CC creature? I think it's more like a 5 CC creature and land in one.
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Sorry I read it as 1RG lol. I take back that last post
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4556364&highlight=sarkhan#post4556364
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My new section will be a bit more midrangy. Something like:
On-deck:
Kird Ape
Stormbind
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1) Turn 1: Experiment One Turn 2: Burning-Tree Emissary Evolve, Wild Nacatl Evolve, Goblin Guide, Crash in for 5. Turn 3: Swing for 10 if not more.
2.) I play a land + something turn 1. They play a land and Sol Ring and pass. I play Burning-Tree Emissary and cast Tin-street Hooligan off of it to kill their Sol Ring.
However, realistically I just see casting it turn 2 or 3 and playing an additional card that turn. I mean there's nothing wrong with casting an Emissary and being able to drop a Skullclamp+Equip onto the Emissary on turn 2. Even just playing Emissary into another 2 drop generally means you'll have 4+ power on the field... And later in the game it does function as a free spell, so even if you top deck it post Wrath you can play it and still cast that Hellrider or whatever to better rebuild your board.
Yes, it's not a great top deck late game, but most aggro cards aren't amazing in that regard, with the exception of like Goblin Guide.