Misstep is not only good in control decks and preordain is good in any deck. I like preordain in rug tempo or American tempo the best but run it in every deck with blue. Mental misstep finds a home in aggro, tempo, control, ramp and combo. Basically everything. If I notice my opponent doesn't have many one drops I might side it out but usually that's the game they drop a turn one land tax followed by a sol ring...
question then - if you open MM in your starting seven, and your opponent has first play and opens with Preordain or Ponder (signalling a control deck)...
do you use the MM?
What situations would you hold on to the MM in hopes of hard countering something later? my opinion is that you should use it on the first opportunity you have (since you don't know if there will be an opportunity later, esp against non aggro decks). does that sound right?
I think the situations where you would not cast it are specific enough to not be worth much discussion, especially game one. They are generally casting their most important one drop (in hand) immediately.
question then - if you open MM in your starting seven, and your opponent has first play and opens with Preordain or Ponder (signalling a control deck)...
do you use the MM?
What situations would you hold on to the MM in hopes of hard countering something later? my opinion is that you should use it on the first opportunity you have (since you don't know if there will be an opportunity later, esp against non aggro decks). does that sound right?
If I see a first turn Ponder, I assume the control player is looking for something (probably lands) immediately. I assume this because when I'm on the control deck, and I have the play, I hold back on a possible first-turn Ponder effect unless I need it for land drops right away.
The nature of cube means I may only have one or two Ponder effects, and they're much more valuable when there's a specific threat to respond to or when you have more information. For instance, if I cast a third turn Ponder that finds a Wrath, I know for sure if I want to keep it or not. If I see a Wrath with my first-turn Ponder, I have no idea if I'll want it (unless I was on the draw, and even then I can't be too sure). If the opponent feels they can't save the Ponder for later, it's probably important enough to counter.
I certainly would not feel bad about it. Ponder/Preordain are good cards, and probably important to your opponent's curve if they're casting them on T1. Countering those plays seems like a good thing.
Apparently that's done. I've said my business, shown that it's not too narrow, shown that it has enough targets, explained its role and its importance, provided the math to show its consistency and there's been an anecdotal "it's not good enough because Andy Cooperfauss says so" response. With absolutely no statistics or in-cube experience to back it up. I've asked very specific questions to help pinpoint what the problem might be for his cube; none of which have been answered. And I guess we're both "unwilling to budge" and he won't take it to the more public Mental Misstep [SCD] to actually debate it, so I guess it's over.
Turning even a cantrip into a poor imitation of lava spike is pretty good. There's a reason we don't cube lava spike and even of we did, the average deck running ponder wouldn't play it.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
It isn't turning it into Lava Spike; you have to spend a card for the effect, so the opponent hasn't 'lost' anything.
They're down a card and out of the filtering, so I'm not sure what you mean. And very few counterspells replace themselves so spending a card isn't much of a downside.
The value of misstep, in my opinion, is the tempo you gain from curving out and countering their spells at the same time. A lot of decks rely on their turn 1 play pretty heavily.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
He means that Lava Spike isn't worth it because it doesn't cost your opponent a card. If Lava Spike did 2 damage and made them discard a card, it would be worth using.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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Maybe you should speak to some of the more prominent cubers out there and see what their opinions are about mm. I am pretty sure they would disagree with you.
Most irrelevant argument ever. Why should I care what "prominent" cubers think of a card if I've gotten good results in my own cube? They haven't drafted my list. Did they even test the card? What makes a cube designer prominent, anyway?
I think actual explanations (like, my cube decks have a lot of crucial 1cc spells and misstep answers them like no other card can) is a lot more valuable than "famous guys hate this card." If you have actual testing data from these important cube dudes, that's another story. Lists for context are always important in these kinds of situations.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Or Skullclamp, Top, Land Tax, Mana Vault, Vampiric/Enlightened/Mystic Tutor, Thoughtseize, Imperial Seal or any of the other amazing noncreature spells that only cost 1-mana. Plus every creature spell that threatens your control deck.
If you like it it's fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I have never straight up cared about a 1 drop being cast besides ancestral.
I cannot believe this is true unless your cube is incredibly topheavy to the point where goblin guide is suddenly average. (and doesn't play a boatload of the obvious 1cmc standby killspells)
Besides when evaluating whether or not a card is effective (as opposed to healthy or fun or whatever), opinions don't mean very much of anything when compared to play data and the like. There's a big difference between Eidolon saying that the card is swingy in his cube and it has an ineffective average case scenario and you saying that "X person who I think is a good player says off the top of his head that he doesn't like it".
They threaten but it is never something i would worry about. Tutors don't matter, top is such a durdly card, skullclamp can get annoying, thoughtseize is only really good if your hand depends on a particular card, creatures can be dealed with using cheap removal or stonewalled. 1 mana removal happens and its not such a blowout that i want a 1cc counter.
Notice I never said 1 drops are bad, its just that I have never worried about them to such a large extent. Blue is insanely good already and it loses more often to 4cc curve toppers than 1 drops.
Midrange and aggro rely very heavily on their first turn and one drops for different reasons, and the ability to disrupt that is so powerful that we have found the card's 'narrowness' rather irrelevant. It doesn't sit in hand as many of the relevant spells cost 1 anyway.
[QUOTE=Chisinf;/comments/4507476]They threaten but it is never something i would worry about. Tutors don't matter, top is such a durdly card, skullclamp can get annoying, thoughtseize is only really good if your hand depends on a particular card, creatures can be dealed with using cheap removal or stonewalled. 1 mana removal happens and its not such a blowout that i want a 1cc counter.
They threaten but it is never something i would worry about. Tutors don't matter, top is such a durdly card, skullclamp can get annoying, thoughtseize is only really good if your hand depends on a particular card, creatures can be dealed with using cheap removal or stonewalled. 1 mana removal happens and its not such a blowout that i want a 1cc counter.
Notice I never said 1 drops are bad, its just that I have never worried about them to such a large extent. Blue is insanely good already and it loses more often to 4cc curve toppers than 1 drops.
You don't worry about their 1-drops? Tutors don't matter? What? Top is a durdly card, but it makes a huge difference in the control mirror where its durdliness doesn't set them back. Skullclamp is more than just "annoying". Thoughtseize is really good if you have important cards in your hand. Do your decks not include important cards? There aren't enough cheap removal spells that are cubeworthy. There's far more 1cc threats than there are 1cc answers. 1cc removal is a blowout, but you don't need a 1cc counter for it, you can use a free counter for it. Having that free counter for your opponent's removal against your Sower can steal a game when no other counter can be applicable at the time.
I would argue that the damage dealt by their 1-drops is what puts them in the position to beat you with their curve-toppers. And it would make sense that their 4cc creatures are killing you, since you use all your spot removal on their 1-drops.
Clearly you're playing cube in opposite land. Where mid-range beaters are the biggest threat to control and tutors don't matter.
There are a lot of good cheap removal but if your list is tight, you won't find space for it. The control mirror is already fine, I dont need a special counter just to hit tops and tutors. Obviously there are more 1cc creatures than 1cc removal but there are a lot of 2 drops that stonewall them. Having pretty much any nonconditional counter for a removal spell does the same thing. I am considering cutting my cheap removal to see how it changes the matchup. Being on the play also diminishes the power of 1 drops. If mm is considered playable then why isnt spell snare seeing play? There are a lot of good 2 drops out there, more than 1 drops I would think.
I am a control player at heart and I have crushed my fair share of aggro without mm.
Obviously there are more 1cc creatures than 1cc removal but there are a lot of 2 drops that stonewall them.
But the 2-drops have a lot more counters and removal spells in the cube that can deal with them effectively. It's the 1-drops that have inefficient answers and almost no counters.
Having pretty much any nonconditional counter for a removal spell does the same thing.
Unconditional how? Remand allows them to replay it. If it's a Spike/Daze/Miscalc/Leak/Condescend, they can just pay for it. So you have FoW, Forbid, Counterspell, Mana Drain & Command. Only one of those can be played with zero mana. And that requires another blue card to pitch to it, which is harder to do in the mid-late game. So really, almost no other counterspells do the same thing.
I am considering cutting my cheap removal to see how it changes the matchup. Being on the play also diminishes the power of 1 drops. If mm is considered playable then why isnt spell snare seeing play? There are a lot of good 2 drops out there, more than 1 drops I would think.
For a ton of reasons.
1. The removal against 2-drops is more numerous and more cost effective.
2. The quantity of available counterspells is much higher for dealing with 2-drops.
3. They resolve closer to the time your creatures will be able to block them and/or your wrath spells and sweepers will be able to kill them off.
4. MM can be played on zero mana.
5. MM can be played in non-blue decks.
I am a control player at heart and I have crushed my fair share of aggro without mm.
So have I. But it's still the deck's hardest matchup. If control beats aggro more than aggro beats control, the cube has a problem. It's important for that matchup to be favorable for the aggro drafter, or there's no incentive to draft aggro. The R/P/S metagame of Aggro < Midrange < Control < Aggro is important to ensure that no one theater becomes dominant, and all major decktypes have the same incentive to draft them.
There are some slightly more fringe 1 mana removal like oust, forked bolt, disfigure that I think should should see more play if aggro is good. I feel like a lot of times people lose to aggro when playing control is due to the fact that they are not playing optimally or not drafting enough early defense.
There are some slightly more fringe 1 mana removal like oust, forked bolt, disfigure that I think should should see more play if aggro is good. I feel like a lot of times people lose to aggro when playing control is due to the fact that they are not playing optimally or not drafting enough early defense.
Are you saying control should consistently beat aggro? What is control weak against? Do you have a list of your cube?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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Bye way wolf thanks for the calculations
I think the situations where you would not cast it are specific enough to not be worth much discussion, especially game one. They are generally casting their most important one drop (in hand) immediately.
If I see a first turn Ponder, I assume the control player is looking for something (probably lands) immediately. I assume this because when I'm on the control deck, and I have the play, I hold back on a possible first-turn Ponder effect unless I need it for land drops right away.
The nature of cube means I may only have one or two Ponder effects, and they're much more valuable when there's a specific threat to respond to or when you have more information. For instance, if I cast a third turn Ponder that finds a Wrath, I know for sure if I want to keep it or not. If I see a Wrath with my first-turn Ponder, I have no idea if I'll want it (unless I was on the draw, and even then I can't be too sure). If the opponent feels they can't save the Ponder for later, it's probably important enough to counter.
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They're down a card and out of the filtering, so I'm not sure what you mean. And very few counterspells replace themselves so spending a card isn't much of a downside.
The value of misstep, in my opinion, is the tempo you gain from curving out and countering their spells at the same time. A lot of decks rely on their turn 1 play pretty heavily.
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Most irrelevant argument ever. Why should I care what "prominent" cubers think of a card if I've gotten good results in my own cube? They haven't drafted my list. Did they even test the card? What makes a cube designer prominent, anyway?
I think actual explanations (like, my cube decks have a lot of crucial 1cc spells and misstep answers them like no other card can) is a lot more valuable than "famous guys hate this card." If you have actual testing data from these important cube dudes, that's another story. Lists for context are always important in these kinds of situations.
No one plays aggro? No one plays mana elves? Path? swords? Sounds like a weird cube.
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I cannot believe this is true unless your cube is incredibly topheavy to the point where goblin guide is suddenly average. (and doesn't play a boatload of the obvious 1cmc standby killspells)
Besides when evaluating whether or not a card is effective (as opposed to healthy or fun or whatever), opinions don't mean very much of anything when compared to play data and the like. There's a big difference between Eidolon saying that the card is swingy in his cube and it has an ineffective average case scenario and you saying that "X person who I think is a good player says off the top of his head that he doesn't like it".
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Notice I never said 1 drops are bad, its just that I have never worried about them to such a large extent. Blue is insanely good already and it loses more often to 4cc curve toppers than 1 drops.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
You should take those cards out then.
You don't worry about their 1-drops? Tutors don't matter? What? Top is a durdly card, but it makes a huge difference in the control mirror where its durdliness doesn't set them back. Skullclamp is more than just "annoying". Thoughtseize is really good if you have important cards in your hand. Do your decks not include important cards? There aren't enough cheap removal spells that are cubeworthy. There's far more 1cc threats than there are 1cc answers. 1cc removal is a blowout, but you don't need a 1cc counter for it, you can use a free counter for it. Having that free counter for your opponent's removal against your Sower can steal a game when no other counter can be applicable at the time.
I would argue that the damage dealt by their 1-drops is what puts them in the position to beat you with their curve-toppers. And it would make sense that their 4cc creatures are killing you, since you use all your spot removal on their 1-drops.
Clearly you're playing cube in opposite land. Where mid-range beaters are the biggest threat to control and tutors don't matter.
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I am a control player at heart and I have crushed my fair share of aggro without mm.
Just like with every card type. All the best cheap removal already sees play.
I agree with this. I'm simply explaining that even in the card's worst matchup, it's still quite valuable.
It's being included to shore up the weakness against aggro. And it happens to be pretty bomb against midrange too, incidentally.
But the 2-drops have a lot more counters and removal spells in the cube that can deal with them effectively. It's the 1-drops that have inefficient answers and almost no counters.
Unconditional how? Remand allows them to replay it. If it's a Spike/Daze/Miscalc/Leak/Condescend, they can just pay for it. So you have FoW, Forbid, Counterspell, Mana Drain & Command. Only one of those can be played with zero mana. And that requires another blue card to pitch to it, which is harder to do in the mid-late game. So really, almost no other counterspells do the same thing.
For a ton of reasons.
1. The removal against 2-drops is more numerous and more cost effective.
2. The quantity of available counterspells is much higher for dealing with 2-drops.
3. They resolve closer to the time your creatures will be able to block them and/or your wrath spells and sweepers will be able to kill them off.
4. MM can be played on zero mana.
5. MM can be played in non-blue decks.
So have I. But it's still the deck's hardest matchup. If control beats aggro more than aggro beats control, the cube has a problem. It's important for that matchup to be favorable for the aggro drafter, or there's no incentive to draft aggro. The R/P/S metagame of Aggro < Midrange < Control < Aggro is important to ensure that no one theater becomes dominant, and all major decktypes have the same incentive to draft them.
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Are you saying control should consistently beat aggro? What is control weak against? Do you have a list of your cube?