MTG Salvation

Is thos card too slow for aggro or why is nobody playing it?



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In all the testing I had with it, I always preferred an extra threat.

It would probably be a solid performer in that decktype.

The reason why Aether Vial is great in Legacy is because of two main reasons that don't apply as much in cube:

1. You have a much greater threat of being locked out of the game very early due to the great density of countermagic and mana disruption in Legacy. Aether Vial can sidestep this to a fair degree.

2. Aether Vial allows you to use your manabase (Wasteland and/or Rishadan Port) to disrupt your opponent whilst still developing your board.

That said, Aether Vial will still be a fairly strong card in your opening hand in a cube deck. I suggest trying it, and seeing how often it works out for you.

Actually now that I think about it, your average aggro deck will want to have more 1 drops than 2-drops, fewer 3 drops and so on, but Aether Vial actually shines in decks that have more 2 and 3 drops, as you get more value from it. Case in point is Legacy Goblins, which I play myself. Goblins has a bigger density of three drops (Warchief, Matron, Chieftain).

Quote from Juju

Aether Vial will still be a fairly strong card in your opening hand in a cube deck.

This is the main problem. It's great in your opening hand, so you run it as a 4-of in Constructed. As a singleton in Cube, it will just rarely actually be in your opening hand, making it more difficult to get full advantage out of it. It can be awful late when you have mana but need a threat.

I cut Vial when I went down to 400, and was usually one of the few people who stood up for it on this forum. I would still run it at 500 FWIW. The ability to get creatures out past counterspells, mana or colour screw, at instant speed no less, was valued highly in my group and it won me games against land destruction and counters more than once. It's not a one drop, and there's no point comparing it to a two-power one drop because you're not cutting the latter for it in your deck or in the cube list. It shone in control decks oddly enough, as keeping all your mana up and then dropping all your Serendib Efreets and finishers etc. at EoT is pretty busted. I wouldn't rule out its return in the future with the dropping curve of cubes and the changing face of decks like green ramp.

I think that the 'problem' Aether Vial has is that it's not part of the cards that aggro is actively looking to draft (i.e. a critical mass of early beaters).

That said, I am a big proponent of the vial and think that it's work it if you get to activate it twice. I particularly like it in conjunction with Crystal Shard.

I think it's a playable card in the 540 range.

I read the previous arguments but I think this card gets better the more early beaters you play and it can be a combo piece as well. I want to throw it back in for testing.

I agree with everything that's been said about vial being a dead draw later on, and difficult to run without redundant copies, but it's a pet card of mine and I think the upside and uniqueness of its effect makes it worth running.

to me, vial is a fantastic card for aggro decks. the fact that most aggro decks have a higher density of low curve creatures means that leaving it at 2 or 3 will allow you hit a lot of creatures as you draw them. it's good at helping you to dodge countermagic, but more importantly (in my opinion), it's an incredible card for messing around with the combat step, allowing you to flash creatures into play for surprise blockers (or ETB effects). last cube for example, I ran a WB aggro deck with vial. i kept vial at 2, which allowed me to cast threats consistently and drop more "surprise" creatures at my opponent's end step.

I'm a huge fan of vial, but I think good arguments can be made for and against its inclusion. ultimately it might come down to whether or not you want more interesting effects, or more redundant threats.

This card has been in my cube since the beggining. There was a while when I didn't draft it as I picked other cards that I thought would help my deck more. Then my friend builds a green white aggro deck with it and reminds me why it's such a powerful card. All my counter spells were dead. Just like a lot of great cards in cube it is not what you want to see as a top deck. But that goes for thoughtsieze and black vise and a grip of other cards. You should never cut a card based on that thinking. I suggest playing the vial. It's a really really good card.

Yeah we'll most legacy decks run 4 of every card. Like I said... Lots of cards are bad top decks and you can only run one of every card in cube. That shouldn't shy you away from running powerful cards.

I don't exclude it because it's a bad topdeck. I exclude it because it takes one of my threats away. I'd rather run another beater in its place instead. Pretty much every single time.

What about if we start using the card in Crystal Shard decks instead of aggro decks? I mean instant speed free Man-o-Wars or Nakrataals are never bad, right?

It was better there than in aggro most of the time, but even so, it still costs me a card. It's cool to have Man-o'-War + Crystal Shard + Aether Vial on 3, but wasn't good/consistent enough to continue running. It's been out of the cube for a long time now, and I have no interest in bringing it back in.

Fair enough. It does take a long time to get going.

I personally think that Aether Vial works best in more midrangey-type decks. This is for a few reasons:

- Midrange decks need the counterspell protection/sweeper avoidance more vs. the control decks, since that is the weak matchup in the metagame clock
- One of the Vial's values is generating free creature mana, and midrange decks with more 3-5 drop creatures are going to take better advantage of that, in addition to the fact that a later drawn Vial has more value because the impact that 4-5 drops have in the later game is greater than 1-2 drops (which aggro decks revolve around)
- Historically in constructed Magic, Vial is best in midrange decks and not pure aggressive decks. The lone exception is Affinity, but that deck was the exception to rule (and it is no longer used in it, even though it is available in Modern...likely due to the lack of artifact lands/frogmite/enforcer). The best Vial decks are Goblins and Merfolk in Legacy (not aggro) and the RUG midrange decks in Modern.

-AA

Quote from wtwlf123

I don't exclude it because it's a bad topdeck. I exclude it because it takes one of my threats away. I'd rather run another beater in its place instead. Pretty much every single time.

It seems like it belongs more in an accelerant slot than a threat slot. I wouldn't count Dark Ritual or Mind Stone as threats in deck construction, and that's what Vial is - a mana rock for creatures only

When I used to run Aether Vial it was at its best in midrange blink type decks. Having three or four counters on it with a range of ETB creature effects could be pretty powerful. If I were pushing that archetype again I'd probably run it.

Quote from Magic-Jiffen

Hi,

the problem is that you can't run four vials in cube. In legacy it is great that you can improve your vial-in-opener-rate by running four. Nearly all decks in legacy run four vials or none, but additionals vials are weak.
In cube it is really bad if you don't have your vial on turn 1 or 2. He is weaker than a basic land in the mid or lategame.
There are situations where you think that a vial would be nice but in general you would always prefer a threat.

This argument doesn't really work. Each individual vial is going to be drawn in a bad part of the game as often as this one. The deck runs four because it wants a vial on turn one as often as possible, not because vial gets better the more you have.

Quote from Leelue »

The deck runs four because it wants a vial on turn one as often as possible, not because vial gets better the more you have.

Believe it or not, these two concepts work hand in hand.

Chances of drawing a Vial in your opening hand with 4 of them in a 60 card constructed deck: 39.9%
Chances of drawing a Vial in your opening hand with 1 of them in a 40 card cube deck: 17.5%

Maybe I'm the only one with this problem, but one of the reasons I'm not considering running vial anytime soon is because of my playgroup's overall card-reading ability and skill level. I don't know about you guys, but all the amazing vial tricks didn't pop out at me, and I think my playgroup would misread it and pass it even if they were playing an aggro list that was just the bee's knees. It's a pet card for me that I'd love to rationalize running despite all its drawbacks in cube but know it wouldn't see the love I'd want it to.

Quote from wtwlf123

Believe it or not, these two concepts work hand in hand.

Chances of drawing a Vial in your opening hand with 4 of them in a 60 card constructed deck: 39.9%
Chances of drawing a Vial in your opening hand with 1 of them in a 40 card cube deck: 17.5%

There may be something wrong with my conceptualization of it, but I have never really been able to see the % of drawing one of four in your opening hand pertinent to a judgement of how good just one of those cards is without the other three. Not sure what's going on in my head that's different to yours.

The reason why you run 4 in constructed and not 1 is because the value of the card is contingent upon drawing one early.

For some cards, the value of running 4 can be different. Power in critical mass, crucial to your strategy, etc. But for Vial, the value is in casting it early.

We tested this card in my cube for 4 or 5 months.

And I would have to say that 9 out of ten times it was a dead card in hand or just sat on the battlefield and had little value.

I have removed it and never plan to add it back.