I would never cut this card from my cube its so insane that people playing my cube will take it first pick pretty much whichever pack its in and play/splash it regardless of whatever color/strategy they are drafting. I don't think any other card in my cube has won as many games as bonfire has. Unpowered 540.
I'm not a massive fan of miracle in cube. However, I do like to see the mechanic represented - I like that random 'topdecksplosion' feel and I think that Entreat the Angels perfectly captures the mechanic. The card's been pretty good even in our 320, despite not being for reanimator; it makes up for it by being decent in midrange too, being scalable, and I even ran it as a make-up-the-numbers card in aggro in one deck where I had a lot of looting effects in case I drew it early. It made me a 4/4 flier for 3, too, in a few games.
As for Bonfire, it was clearly ridiculous from the offset and I'm glad I invested early. I think my red section is a little small for it, though, and I only want the one miracle effect. I prefer the flavour of the white one.
With things like Sylvan Library Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor Bonfire and Terminus have become first pickable. I am really surprised by concerns about variance. They may not be best in the opening hand but I hate top-decking my mana cards late, not sure what the difference is.
With things like Sylvan Library Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor Bonfire and Terminus have become first pickable. I am really surprised by concerns about variance. They may not be best in the opening hand but I hate top-decking my mana cards late, not sure what the difference is.
What? O.o
I don't even understand how that comparison can be made. Miracles are frustrating because they are a mediocre spell that is serviceable at its casting cost. That turn into the stone nuts when top decked in an ideal scenario. Mediocre cards that some how become busted and swingy when top decked randomly isn't exactly most people's idea of fun. I'm not sure how this can be compared in anyway to top decking a mana source late game.
They may not be best in the opening hand but I hate top-decking my mana cards late, not sure what the difference is.
The difference is that my spell slots shouldn't be dead cards. Land cards play, draft and build differently than spell cards do.
There are cards that are better in different phases of the game, but they're still the same quality of card once they're played. A Titan isn't a card I typically want in my opener, but it's still a bomb once I can finally play it. A Miracle isn't.
The difference is that my spell slots shouldn't be dead cards. Land cards play, draft and build differently than spell cards do.
There are cards that are better in different phases of the game, but they're still the same quality of card once they're played. A Titan isn't a card I typically want in my opener, but it's still a bomb once I can finally play it. A Miracle isn't.
A Bonfire of the damned or an Entreat the angels is still a bomb if nonmiracled, its a worse, more expensive bomb, but these spells are still good, they just aren't as strong as the extremely powerful miracled version. 5 for a one sidedpyroclasm with a shock to the dome isnt terrible, especially considering its "kicked" version is extremely strong. The angel is an even better deal nonkicked. With all the deck manipulation in cube miracles arent as "random lucky topdecks" as people think. I even run devastation tide, which has been an all-star in every single draft its been picked in. mystical tutor is just a mean card with miracles.
A Bonfire of the damned or an Entreat the angels is still a bomb if nonmiracled, its a worse, more expensive bomb, but these spells are still good, they just aren't as strong as the extremely powerful miracled version. 5 for a one sidedpyroclasm with a shock to the dome isnt terrible, especially considering its "kicked" version is extremely strong. The angel is an even better deal nonkicked. With all the deck manipulation in cube miracles arent as "random lucky topdecks" as people think. I even run devastation tide, which has been an all-star in every single draft its been picked in. mystical tutor is just a mean card with miracles.
Bonefire for 5, is on par with Incendiary Command, which no one really plays in cube. When was the last time you saw anyone care about Lavalanche either?
Entreat is a clunky Decree of Justice without the cycle, and a triple white colour cost if not miracled. At 5, you're playing a harder to cast Sara Angel without Vigilance that gets hit by more spells (bounce and cards that care about 0 cost), and at 7 you're getting a more expensive Broodmate Dragon (which isn't great in cube) that can't be abused with blink or reanimator, and requires triple white instead of Jund.
I don't know, it's up to you, but I'd rather not play clunky cards that create seriously unfun blow outs due to good top decking. Sure there are some interactions with deck manipulation, but why bother with all of the set up when you can just play more interesting cards that aren't so luck based otherwise?
My point is that their clunky aren't terrible unusable cards, they are ok, not special. Its like looking at a card with entwine or kicker and looking only at the unkicked version or unentwined card.
I Don't understand the unfun blow outs due to topdecking. Cube is full of cheap powerful cards that are just cruel topdecks.
I mean hating a mechanic is ok, I love DFC's but in cube they are too annoying for me to use except garruk 3.0, but that particular reason doesn't make sense to me.
my main point is that Bonfire and entreat at the least, have upsides that trump their powered down versions(which aren't useless and can be pretty strong) and if you complain about their miracled power then why not complain about sol ring's power or the power 9's power.
Entwine and Kicker both have two modes, which can be useful at most parts of the game, while Miracle has two modes, one of which generally only has one window of being used. Something like Into The Roil or Burst Lightning is strong throughout the game, with more mana making it more powerful, thus enabling it to be good early game and better late game. The same is true for Entwine, but there aren't many good cards for cube with Entwine. On the other hand, flipping a Miracle at the wrong time is terrible, you never want to flip that Entreat when you don't have WW possible, and generally a Bonfire early or if they have no creatures is super underwhelming when compared to even Fireball. So yes, a Shock isn't impressive, and a Burst Lightning for an extra mana isn't either, but when put on the same card, as if it was a split card, it's pretty good because it makes the card more relevant through different parts of the game. On other hand, Miracle makes the card less versatile, not more, and restricts it's functionality to specific instances of the game as opposed to being modular throughout the game.
Exactly, magic has variance, so why add more than is needed?
That's because top decking a Miracle at the right time is just a major blow out, that is almost unstoppable, while top decking it at the wrong time is terrible. Sol Ring has a very similar quality where it's amazing on the first few turns and kind of depressing later on... However, Sol Ring powers out bigger cards, generally creatures, which are very answerable through means of removal that is FAR cheaper than the cost of those powered out creatures. On the other hand, flipping a Miracle at the right time is just game over, barring the timely counter.
Bonefire and Entreat are still okay if they're not miracled. I think they're both good enough for 720, not sure if I'd play Entreat at 630, but I'd play Bonfire at 540 probably.
Bonefire for 5, is on par with Incendiary Command, which no one really plays in cube. When was the last time you saw anyone care about Lavalanche either?
Incendiary Command has Pyroclasm, not a one sided Pyroclasm. Also isn't just one red mana or an X spell. I think this comparison is weak. I've been very happy with Bonefiring for just 1.
Lavalanche costs a whole shard of colors.
I don't think Bonefire can really be compared to any other Magic card.
I Don't understand the unfun blow outs due to topdecking.
Topdecking is an exciting part of Magic because you take an ordinary card and it becomes extraordinary because of the situation and timing window it was drawn in. Turning that aspect of Magic into a mechanic by making a card that's bad when drawn early and broken when drawn late just doesn't interest me.
I mean hating a mechanic is ok, I love DFC's but in cube they are too annoying for me to use except garruk 3.0, but that particular reason doesn't make sense to me.
How is this any different? You limit the number of DFCs in your cube because you dislike the mechanic. How is excluding Miracle cards any less arbitrary? Especially when the issue with the Miracles isn't aesthetic, but actually based around performance?
my main point is that Bonfire and entreat at the least, have upsides that trump their powered down versions(which aren't useless and can be pretty strong) and if you complain about their miracled power then why not complain about sol ring's power or the power 9's power.
I don't complain about the Miracled power being too good. I complain about the regular hardcast mode not being good enough. It has the opposite problem of other broken cube cards.
..........
Don't get me wrong, I think the cards are pretty good. I mean, both Bonfire and Entreat can just be insane at times. My playgroup just didn't like the variance in power-level between super-broken and barely playable, and don't enjoy turning topdecking into a mechanic.
How is this any different? You limit the number of DFCs in your cube because you dislike the mechanic. How is excluding Miracle cards any less arbitrary? Especially when the issue with the Miracles isn't aesthetic, but actually based around performance?
I don't complain about the Miracled power being too good. I complain about the regular hardcast mode not being good enough. It has the opposite problem of other broken cube cards.
..........
Don't get me wrong, I think the cards are pretty good. I mean, both Bonfire and Entreat can just be insane at times. My playgroup just didn't like the variance in power-level between super-broken and barely playable, and don't enjoy turning topdecking into a mechanic.
I'm confused whether the problem is the mechanic not being feel good, or not being strong enough to you. We all agree that miracled miracles are super strong and nonmiracled are rather weak. I'm saying that this is good enough for cube, that the upside is worth running an average card, but might not feel good in anyone's specific cube. What I believed to be conveyed by the rest of this thread is that some didn't believe the upside to be worth running the downside, which i heartily disagree with. If you don't like the mechanic that is different, which is why i referenced DFCs as some are really strong but some people still choose to not include them because they dont like the mechanic.
I'm confused whether the problem is the mechanic not being feel good, or not being strong enough to you.
Both. I don't like the mechanic, but I was willing to try them anyways. And then I cut them. The problem was that the cards were bad like 25% of the time, and that was just too much variance for me. The upside was sometimes great (I say sometimes because even some of the times that it's Miracled the timing is wrong and the card isn't stellar) but the fact that the card was really subpar all the rest of the time made them inclusions my playgroup wasn't interested in.
The difference is that my spell slots shouldn't be dead cards. Land cards play, draft and build differently than spell cards do.
There are cards that are better in different phases of the game, but they're still the same quality of card once they're played. A Titan isn't a card I typically want in my opener, but it's still a bomb once I can finally play it. A Miracle isn't.
What I was getting at was cards like dark ritual or the oft-touted-broken sol ring aren't winning me the game when I am pulling them after I have dropped 6 lands. So in decks that don't intend to go late mana ramp cards are great, but the feel jsut as high-variance to me. Yes you can cheat on your land count, but that incremental advantage feel equal to the expensive miracle cost to me.
But my biggest quandry for this group is terminus. Most members of the cube community would get excited over a cheap playable warth. There has been much discussion over which 6 mana versions are playable. Supreme verdict gets the nod for many people even being two colors. But somehow Terminus, which is a 6 mana wrath 25% of the time, and a 1 man wrath 75% of the time is discarded. It has been on-line on turns 2 and 3 about 5% of the time which has been huge against other broken starts.
With things like Sylvan Library Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor Bonfire and Terminus have become first pickable. I am really surprised by concerns about variance. They may not be best in the opening hand but I hate top-decking my mana cards late, not sure what the difference is.
I agree with this so much. Its like people always draw miracles in their openers and never draw Moxs on turn 6
With the length of the average cube game, having a card be good in your opening hand is more important than it being a good topdeck. Almost half the cards you'll see during the game are in your opener. So being a bad topdeck if I happen to draw it in the late stages of the game isn't nearly as disappointing as having a bad card in your opening hand that can't really improve.
And the strength of the other high-variance cards like Sol Ring and stuff is greater than that of the Miracle cards, in our experience. Drawing a Bonfire on T5 to hit your opponent and all of his creatures for 3 damage is good, but it's nowhere near that of something like a T1 Sol Ring.
Moxen take up a land slot during deckbuilding. Drawing them late is no different than drawing a land late.
Thats a self defeating argument because now you're telling me that a Moxen is no better than a basic land on turn 6. Do you play basic Island, Swamp, Plains, Mountain and Forest in your Cube?
The rationale for playing fast mana -- some of which can't be counted as lands incidentally -- is hoping to get it early when it is powerful and avoid it late when most of the time any other card would be a better draw.
But somehow Terminus, which is a 6 mana wrath 25% of the time, and a 1 man wrath 75% of the time is discarded.
Wait, where are you getting these statistics... That seems amazingly fishy.
@KBH: Moxen are basically replacement for land most of the time, so unless you want to play Magic without lands, or the equivalent there of, you can't really make the claim about moxen vs. miracle in that sense.
More so, it's the fact that Miracle has a narrow window of use and is otherwise highly mediocre, and thus becoming a very binary card without being very interesting. While cards that are otherwise amazing or mediocre based on the phase of the game at the very least have some more application throughout and are generally versatility cards in the form of Burst Lightning or Figure of Destiny as opposed to limited opportunity bombs or busts.
Thats a self defeating argument because now you're telling me that a Moxen is no better than a basic land on turn 6. Do you play basic Island, Swamp, Plains, Mountain and Forest in your Cube?
What? No, but they're in every deck. With or without the Mox, the quality of that single late-game draw would've been the same. But in the early stages of the game, the Mox is dramatically better.
@KBH: Moxen are basically replacement for land most of the time, so unless you want to play Magic without lands, or the equivalent there of, you can't really make the claim about moxen vs. miracle in that sense.
this is a lazy cut-and-paste argument that completely ignores the reality of why you put a Mox in your deck in the first place. Your claim is that it has no downside. Of course that is not technically true (artifact destruction..) but more importantly it is not evaluated based on downside but rather on upside. In that context it is a mirror image of the miracle mechanic.
This equally extends to 2/x 1 drops only they have a much, much smaller window of effectiveness -- they're typically outright bad by turn 4 at the latest.
Nobody is claiming that Moxen have no downsides. But being a bad lategame topdeck isn't one of them, because if the slot it takes up during deck construction.
As for Bonfire, it was clearly ridiculous from the offset and I'm glad I invested early. I think my red section is a little small for it, though, and I only want the one miracle effect. I prefer the flavour of the white one.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
What? O.o
I don't even understand how that comparison can be made. Miracles are frustrating because they are a mediocre spell that is serviceable at its casting cost. That turn into the stone nuts when top decked in an ideal scenario. Mediocre cards that some how become busted and swingy when top decked randomly isn't exactly most people's idea of fun. I'm not sure how this can be compared in anyway to top decking a mana source late game.
The difference is that my spell slots shouldn't be dead cards. Land cards play, draft and build differently than spell cards do.
There are cards that are better in different phases of the game, but they're still the same quality of card once they're played. A Titan isn't a card I typically want in my opener, but it's still a bomb once I can finally play it. A Miracle isn't.
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A Bonfire of the damned or an Entreat the angels is still a bomb if nonmiracled, its a worse, more expensive bomb, but these spells are still good, they just aren't as strong as the extremely powerful miracled version. 5 for a one sidedpyroclasm with a shock to the dome isnt terrible, especially considering its "kicked" version is extremely strong. The angel is an even better deal nonkicked. With all the deck manipulation in cube miracles arent as "random lucky topdecks" as people think. I even run devastation tide, which has been an all-star in every single draft its been picked in. mystical tutor is just a mean card with miracles.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Bonefire for 5, is on par with Incendiary Command, which no one really plays in cube. When was the last time you saw anyone care about Lavalanche either?
Entreat is a clunky Decree of Justice without the cycle, and a triple white colour cost if not miracled. At 5, you're playing a harder to cast Sara Angel without Vigilance that gets hit by more spells (bounce and cards that care about 0 cost), and at 7 you're getting a more expensive Broodmate Dragon (which isn't great in cube) that can't be abused with blink or reanimator, and requires triple white instead of Jund.
I don't know, it's up to you, but I'd rather not play clunky cards that create seriously unfun blow outs due to good top decking. Sure there are some interactions with deck manipulation, but why bother with all of the set up when you can just play more interesting cards that aren't so luck based otherwise?
I Don't understand the unfun blow outs due to topdecking. Cube is full of cheap powerful cards that are just cruel topdecks.
I mean hating a mechanic is ok, I love DFC's but in cube they are too annoying for me to use except garruk 3.0, but that particular reason doesn't make sense to me.
my main point is that Bonfire and entreat at the least, have upsides that trump their powered down versions(which aren't useless and can be pretty strong) and if you complain about their miracled power then why not complain about sol ring's power or the power 9's power.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Exactly, magic has variance, so why add more than is needed?
That's because top decking a Miracle at the right time is just a major blow out, that is almost unstoppable, while top decking it at the wrong time is terrible. Sol Ring has a very similar quality where it's amazing on the first few turns and kind of depressing later on... However, Sol Ring powers out bigger cards, generally creatures, which are very answerable through means of removal that is FAR cheaper than the cost of those powered out creatures. On the other hand, flipping a Miracle at the right time is just game over, barring the timely counter.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Incendiary Command has Pyroclasm, not a one sided Pyroclasm. Also isn't just one red mana or an X spell. I think this comparison is weak. I've been very happy with Bonefiring for just 1.
Lavalanche costs a whole shard of colors.
I don't think Bonefire can really be compared to any other Magic card.
Which is what I said. They're not bombs when they're hardcast.
Topdecking is an exciting part of Magic because you take an ordinary card and it becomes extraordinary because of the situation and timing window it was drawn in. Turning that aspect of Magic into a mechanic by making a card that's bad when drawn early and broken when drawn late just doesn't interest me.
How is this any different? You limit the number of DFCs in your cube because you dislike the mechanic. How is excluding Miracle cards any less arbitrary? Especially when the issue with the Miracles isn't aesthetic, but actually based around performance?
I don't complain about the Miracled power being too good. I complain about the regular hardcast mode not being good enough. It has the opposite problem of other broken cube cards.
..........
Don't get me wrong, I think the cards are pretty good. I mean, both Bonfire and Entreat can just be insane at times. My playgroup just didn't like the variance in power-level between super-broken and barely playable, and don't enjoy turning topdecking into a mechanic.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm confused whether the problem is the mechanic not being feel good, or not being strong enough to you. We all agree that miracled miracles are super strong and nonmiracled are rather weak. I'm saying that this is good enough for cube, that the upside is worth running an average card, but might not feel good in anyone's specific cube. What I believed to be conveyed by the rest of this thread is that some didn't believe the upside to be worth running the downside, which i heartily disagree with. If you don't like the mechanic that is different, which is why i referenced DFCs as some are really strong but some people still choose to not include them because they dont like the mechanic.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Both. I don't like the mechanic, but I was willing to try them anyways. And then I cut them. The problem was that the cards were bad like 25% of the time, and that was just too much variance for me. The upside was sometimes great (I say sometimes because even some of the times that it's Miracled the timing is wrong and the card isn't stellar) but the fact that the card was really subpar all the rest of the time made them inclusions my playgroup wasn't interested in.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
What I was getting at was cards like dark ritual or the oft-touted-broken sol ring aren't winning me the game when I am pulling them after I have dropped 6 lands. So in decks that don't intend to go late mana ramp cards are great, but the feel jsut as high-variance to me. Yes you can cheat on your land count, but that incremental advantage feel equal to the expensive miracle cost to me.
But my biggest quandry for this group is terminus. Most members of the cube community would get excited over a cheap playable warth. There has been much discussion over which 6 mana versions are playable. Supreme verdict gets the nod for many people even being two colors. But somehow Terminus, which is a 6 mana wrath 25% of the time, and a 1 man wrath 75% of the time is discarded. It has been on-line on turns 2 and 3 about 5% of the time which has been huge against other broken starts.
I agree with this so much. Its like people always draw miracles in their openers and never draw Moxs on turn 6
And the strength of the other high-variance cards like Sol Ring and stuff is greater than that of the Miracle cards, in our experience. Drawing a Bonfire on T5 to hit your opponent and all of his creatures for 3 damage is good, but it's nowhere near that of something like a T1 Sol Ring.
Moxen take up a land slot during deckbuilding. Drawing them late is no different than drawing a land late.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thats a self defeating argument because now you're telling me that a Moxen is no better than a basic land on turn 6. Do you play basic Island, Swamp, Plains, Mountain and Forest in your Cube?
The rationale for playing fast mana -- some of which can't be counted as lands incidentally -- is hoping to get it early when it is powerful and avoid it late when most of the time any other card would be a better draw.
Wait, where are you getting these statistics... That seems amazingly fishy.
@KBH: Moxen are basically replacement for land most of the time, so unless you want to play Magic without lands, or the equivalent there of, you can't really make the claim about moxen vs. miracle in that sense.
More so, it's the fact that Miracle has a narrow window of use and is otherwise highly mediocre, and thus becoming a very binary card without being very interesting. While cards that are otherwise amazing or mediocre based on the phase of the game at the very least have some more application throughout and are generally versatility cards in the form of Burst Lightning or Figure of Destiny as opposed to limited opportunity bombs or busts.
What? No, but they're in every deck. With or without the Mox, the quality of that single late-game draw would've been the same. But in the early stages of the game, the Mox is dramatically better.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
this is a lazy cut-and-paste argument that completely ignores the reality of why you put a Mox in your deck in the first place. Your claim is that it has no downside. Of course that is not technically true (artifact destruction..) but more importantly it is not evaluated based on downside but rather on upside. In that context it is a mirror image of the miracle mechanic.
This equally extends to 2/x 1 drops only they have a much, much smaller window of effectiveness -- they're typically outright bad by turn 4 at the latest.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!