@tomchaps: I can't see the list for some reason, but my first draw had one artifact (a talisman) and it took me seven draws to get to another (a sword). My second opening hand had zero artifacts. I'm sure the card can be crazy, but it's instability in power + fragility are just too much to only support one deck.
That hasn't been my experience with the card. It often finds more than one artifact, and I honestly can't remember the last time I didn't have an artifact in hand to use its ability for at least 2 mana. It's definitely powerful enough in the right deck to justify its narrowness.
I think Shattering Spree's value depends a ton on your artifact count.
If Metalworker is great in your cube, that likely means you have a pretty high artifact density among your cube to enable that deck. I would think if artifacts are that plentiful in your cube environment, Shattering Spree's value would go up a lot from being able to hit a good amount of targets in every deck if the artifact.dec doesn't get drafted. If it does get drafted, it's a fantastic sideboard card against that archetype and may be very valuable to hatedraft the card if you are playing the artifact.dec.
I know I loved it in Gifts Ungiven era Vintage. I won several pieces of power with 4x Shattering Spree in my sideboard. So I know how excellent it can be against certain decks. If Metalworker works out really well, I may test Shattering Spree to see how good it is in my cube.
Metalworker is the shiz. As I talked about early in this thread, I'm unpowered and it's a house in the artifact deck. I've never had one in play on t3 or so and not had at least one artifact to reveal to it; usually it was 2-4 artifact which is pretty nuts. Add Lightning Greaves on t2 before it for more fun! Not that this happens all the time, but attacking with a Myr Battlesphere on t3 in unpowered is a pretty memorable experience.
As an aside, I really don't like including cards like Shattering Spree in Cube. If Metalworker is only good in one type of deck, why are you including cards that are reactive to that one specific archetype? My distaste for 'sideboard' cards in Cube is known by those who know me/listen to the podcast, but I'm WAAAAAAY more understanding of random Disenchants (since they have some game vs. a variety of decks) over an archetype hoser/hate card like Shattering Spree. That's like including Chill because red decks are played and do well! Completely unnecessary.
I can understand your distaste of that type of effect.
Here's the other side of the coin: Sword of Fire and Ice is probably good enough to play even without protection from red or protection from blue. However, because it gives those protections, it becomes more valuable as a result, particularly against Izzet decks. Scavenging Ooze is playable even without playing against reanimator, but that's a matchup where it would really shine. I've played plenty a green deck where I have Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard, but bring it in because I'm playing against reanimator.
I could see the similar argument that Shattering Spree is good enough to play in an artifact-heavy cube environment (one that supports artifacts enough to enjoy including Metalworker).
Occasionally, you'll get that Scavenging Ooze vs. Reanimator type powerhouse situation where the card is really great against a particular deck, but even if it weren't a house against artifact.dec, it may have enough merit on its own. I think people on the other side of the fence would say that it has extra utility against a certain type of deck is just icing on the cake.
I don't really know if that's the case, but I can certainly see that point of view and I'd want to test it before weighing in on how good the card is in the different decks that want to play it. RR to destroy two artifacts is really mana efficient and card advantage.
I still am having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around this guy being better than the myr with any consistency. Let's run through the situations:
We all agree it's far worse than the Myr if you have it in your opening hand and no other artifacts.
We all agree it's far worse than the Myr if you want to ramp into non artifacts.
We all agree it's worse than Myr when forced to attack or block.
IWe all agree it's worse than the Myr if you have it in hand with two other artifacts than cost less than 3.
I assume we all agree it's nearly always worse than Myr when topdecked after turn three?
It's better than Myr when Metalworker is in your opening hand and you have either a crazy amount off cheap (but not too cheap) artifacts or two or more expensive artifacts (4+ cost and/or swords).
I find it really difficult to believe that the slight upside of the last situation outweighs the downside of all of the previous ones unless you are really pushing artifact ramp, and thus are running a lot of really high cost targets. I think I would much rather be guaranteed the 2 mana (and be able to use it on walkers and wraths and draw spells), than have to hope a narrow situation so that I can occasionally get 4. Maybe my math or above assumptions are wrong though.
Just for fun, I goldfished the that deck tomchaps posted above as an example of a good Metalworker deck. I drew 20 hands (10 cards + an automatic metalworker) and asked whether the Myr would be better. Myr was the better choice 14/20 times, and this was before considering things like board presense or if ramping into plow under was superior to ramping into Trike (I gave Metalworker every win where it would produce 4+ mana on T4 or 5).
Try it for yourself, or go draft a deck on cubetutor and post it and we'll try it out, and see if we can answer what kind of build really prefers Metalworker.
I haven't been following the discussion exceptionally closely, so I apologize if I'm missed something here or there, but...
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We all agree it's far worse than the Myr if you want to ramp into non artifacts.
Why can't I have 2 or more artifacts in my hand + something that requires a lot of colorless mana? Metalworker seems fine in this scenario.
It's better than Myr when Metalworker is in your opening hand and you have either a crazy amount off cheap (but not too cheap) artifacts or two or more expensive artifacts (4+ cost and/or swords).
I find it really difficult to believe that the slight upside of the last situation outweighs the downside of all of the previous ones unless you are really pushing artifact ramp, and thus are running a lot of really high cost targets.
There are other interactions which make Metalworker better than the Myr. Hitting 2+ artifacts off of a draw 7 with an active Metalworker in play is much better. In fact, any large draw spell (Fact or Fiction, Sphinx's Revelation, etc) is probably better with Metalworker in an artifact heavy deck. I can think of other random examples, but I can see people liking Metalworker more than the Myr because it does provide a larger upside when you want it / need it. It's also really good with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas because his pseudo-Impulse is going to net you some mana if you have another artifact in hand, which you very well might.
I think I would much rather be guaranteed the 2 mana (and be able to use it on walkers and wraths and draw spells), than have to hope a narrow situation so that I can occasionally get 4. Maybe my math or above assumptions are wrong though.
Do you think you can't use Metalworker's mana on spells that aren't artifacts? Why couldn't you use it on walkers and wraths and draw spells?
My cube supports the Artifact package, and we run Metalworker. I have 65 colorless artifacts (Shard/Shackles are considered Blue).
I think this really narrows down to how you manage your Cube, what your preference to Cube play is and what your expectations are. If you're looking for consistency and a lower ceiling, you go with the Myr. If you're interested in potential explosive plays and a much higher ceiling, you go with the Metalworker.
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Just for fun, I goldfished the that deck tomchaps posted above as an example of a good Metalworker deck. I drew 20 hands (10 cards + an automatic metalworker) and asked whether the Myr would be better. Myr was the better choice 14/20 times, and this was before considering things like board presense or if ramping into plow under was superior to ramping into Trike (I gave Metalworker every win where it would produce 4+ mana on T4 or 5).
Try it for yourself, or go draft a deck on cubetutor and post it and we'll try it out, and see if we can answer what kind of build really prefers Metalworker.
I would agree that the Myr is better in the deck you linked, but I wouldn't agree that it's an example of a "good Metalworker deck". I consider the deck wtwlf posted a page back to be a much better example of a deck where Metalworker can really shine.
I don't think your comparisons are exactly fair, since SoFI is a natural great card that generates all sorts of CA against all decks, and Ooze is a good card does the same (while 'hosing' a particular deck). I wouldn't say either of those cards is narrow in any way, shape, or form.
Shattering Spree, however, IS very narrow. You wouldn't play it if it didn't have replicate, therefore the point is to destroy 2+ artifacts in the same turn. While some decks have multiple artifacts worthy of blowing up at sorcery speed, it is really targeted at the artifact deck archetype. Personally, I LIKE having a myriad of deck archetypes that can be drafted, flourish, and win games. What I DON'T like is hateful (especially reactive) cards in a casual draft environment where people are trying to have fun.
Perhaps I'm overreacting, but the only way I'm adding cards like that is if an archetype is getting way too strong but is fun enough to draft/play that it needs some hate rather than removing its cards from the Cube.
Palladium Myr and Metalworker are roughly on the same power level. Myr is more consistent and will always be a decent ramp card. Worker's power varies more and is more deck dependent, but his potential is way higher. Having a card that taps for 4 or 6 mana on turn four (or three, if you had other acceleration earlier) is insane. Even if it only taps for 2 in the following turns, that one huge boost should put you in the lead. I mean, any four lands, any three artifacts and a Metalworker allow you to hardcast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth on turn four (I recently drafted a deck that did this)! And even with just two other artifacts, you can cast almost any fatty in your cube. That shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. You don't even need to have a fatty: You can just use that mana to cast two or three smaller spells. Being able to cast two 4-drops on turn four instead of having to choose between them is a huge advantage. Note that it is a false assumption that you can only use Metalworker to ramp into colorless stuff. Your lands provide the colored mana, while Worker provides the colorless mana.
From my experience and without doing the exact math, I would say that in decks that run 10 or more artifacts, Metalworker is great. Otherwise, you should probably go with Palladium Myr.
If you run the usual amount of artifacts in your cube (12-15%) and are supporting both the artifact deck and the ramp deck, then Metalworker is a good card for your cube.
I just want it known that I completely disagree with the statement that PM and Metalworker being on roughly the same power level. Saying that the Myr is more consistent is a HUGE misnomer, because the decks that use Metalworker will rarely if ever only be able to activate it for a measly two mana. Myr is more FLEXIBLE, as you can play it in your green ramp decks (or other such things) as a colorless mana dork. Your description right after this statement seems to disagree with your own opening statement!
Metalworker is much more powerful than PM, but PM can find a home in more decks.
To be clear, I wasn't claiming that that deck was a good Metalworker deck, but that Metalworker was a great card in that particular deck. (We weren't able to grab enough artifacts to make it a classic artifact.dec, but still enough to make the 'worker strong...) I figured it was a good example of a borderline artifact deck that could run Metalworker. And in the actual games, its higher upside absolutely stole us some games we wouldn't otherwise have won--stuff like FTK/Sword/equip on one turn midgame.
And yes, I run Paladium Myr in my cube, and not Metalworker. But if I subbed back in the artifact package, I'd try Metalworker; my group doesn't mind the swinginess, and I think we'd find it the more fun card.
Metalworker is great early/mid game and he's great when your luck or shuffling runs poorly and you're manascrewed. His utility trails off in the late game but that's hardly a knock on him. A Mox late game isn't great either, but that's not why you're running them. I have an update coming for my cube and Metalworker is finally making his debut. Not because I didn't want him, but I needed to spend that money elsewhere in the cube.
*edit*: Sorry, I clearly need to cut some reanimation support from my forum posting cube.
I'm kind of glad you necroed this thread TBH, cause we support super ramp and the artifact deck, but we've never tested metalworker. Does anyone think it's still good enough in 2019 to bother testing in a 465 cube?
If picked early and built around, he's broken. It is first pick worthy. Later in the draft Metalworker is hard to play and overall sees fewer maindecks compared to average cube cards.
Metalworker's weird. Most of the time, it sits in the board since everyone values the artifact ramp high enough that you can't assemble the mass of artifacts needed to make Metalworker good. But when it comes together, its completely busted.
I'm kind of glad you necroed this thread TBH, cause we support super ramp and the artifact deck, but we've never tested metalworker. Does anyone think it's still good enough in 2019 to bother testing in a 465 cube?
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If Metalworker is great in your cube, that likely means you have a pretty high artifact density among your cube to enable that deck. I would think if artifacts are that plentiful in your cube environment, Shattering Spree's value would go up a lot from being able to hit a good amount of targets in every deck if the artifact.dec doesn't get drafted. If it does get drafted, it's a fantastic sideboard card against that archetype and may be very valuable to hatedraft the card if you are playing the artifact.dec.
I know I loved it in Gifts Ungiven era Vintage. I won several pieces of power with 4x Shattering Spree in my sideboard. So I know how excellent it can be against certain decks. If Metalworker works out really well, I may test Shattering Spree to see how good it is in my cube.
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As an aside, I really don't like including cards like Shattering Spree in Cube. If Metalworker is only good in one type of deck, why are you including cards that are reactive to that one specific archetype? My distaste for 'sideboard' cards in Cube is known by those who know me/listen to the podcast, but I'm WAAAAAAY more understanding of random Disenchants (since they have some game vs. a variety of decks) over an archetype hoser/hate card like Shattering Spree. That's like including Chill because red decks are played and do well! Completely unnecessary.
-AA
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Here's the other side of the coin: Sword of Fire and Ice is probably good enough to play even without protection from red or protection from blue. However, because it gives those protections, it becomes more valuable as a result, particularly against Izzet decks. Scavenging Ooze is playable even without playing against reanimator, but that's a matchup where it would really shine. I've played plenty a green deck where I have Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard, but bring it in because I'm playing against reanimator.
I could see the similar argument that Shattering Spree is good enough to play in an artifact-heavy cube environment (one that supports artifacts enough to enjoy including Metalworker).
Occasionally, you'll get that Scavenging Ooze vs. Reanimator type powerhouse situation where the card is really great against a particular deck, but even if it weren't a house against artifact.dec, it may have enough merit on its own. I think people on the other side of the fence would say that it has extra utility against a certain type of deck is just icing on the cake.
I don't really know if that's the case, but I can certainly see that point of view and I'd want to test it before weighing in on how good the card is in the different decks that want to play it. RR to destroy two artifacts is really mana efficient and card advantage.
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We all agree it's far worse than the Myr if you have it in your opening hand and no other artifacts.
We all agree it's far worse than the Myr if you want to ramp into non artifacts.
We all agree it's worse than Myr when forced to attack or block.
IWe all agree it's worse than the Myr if you have it in hand with two other artifacts than cost less than 3.
I assume we all agree it's nearly always worse than Myr when topdecked after turn three?
It's better than Myr when Metalworker is in your opening hand and you have either a crazy amount off cheap (but not too cheap) artifacts or two or more expensive artifacts (4+ cost and/or swords).
I find it really difficult to believe that the slight upside of the last situation outweighs the downside of all of the previous ones unless you are really pushing artifact ramp, and thus are running a lot of really high cost targets. I think I would much rather be guaranteed the 2 mana (and be able to use it on walkers and wraths and draw spells), than have to hope a narrow situation so that I can occasionally get 4. Maybe my math or above assumptions are wrong though.
Try it for yourself, or go draft a deck on cubetutor and post it and we'll try it out, and see if we can answer what kind of build really prefers Metalworker.
Why can't I have 2 or more artifacts in my hand + something that requires a lot of colorless mana? Metalworker seems fine in this scenario.
There are other interactions which make Metalworker better than the Myr. Hitting 2+ artifacts off of a draw 7 with an active Metalworker in play is much better. In fact, any large draw spell (Fact or Fiction, Sphinx's Revelation, etc) is probably better with Metalworker in an artifact heavy deck. I can think of other random examples, but I can see people liking Metalworker more than the Myr because it does provide a larger upside when you want it / need it. It's also really good with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas because his pseudo-Impulse is going to net you some mana if you have another artifact in hand, which you very well might.
Do you think you can't use Metalworker's mana on spells that aren't artifacts? Why couldn't you use it on walkers and wraths and draw spells?
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I think this really narrows down to how you manage your Cube, what your preference to Cube play is and what your expectations are. If you're looking for consistency and a lower ceiling, you go with the Myr. If you're interested in potential explosive plays and a much higher ceiling, you go with the Metalworker.
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Shattering Spree, however, IS very narrow. You wouldn't play it if it didn't have replicate, therefore the point is to destroy 2+ artifacts in the same turn. While some decks have multiple artifacts worthy of blowing up at sorcery speed, it is really targeted at the artifact deck archetype. Personally, I LIKE having a myriad of deck archetypes that can be drafted, flourish, and win games. What I DON'T like is hateful (especially reactive) cards in a casual draft environment where people are trying to have fun.
Perhaps I'm overreacting, but the only way I'm adding cards like that is if an archetype is getting way too strong but is fun enough to draft/play that it needs some hate rather than removing its cards from the Cube.
-AA
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From my experience and without doing the exact math, I would say that in decks that run 10 or more artifacts, Metalworker is great. Otherwise, you should probably go with Palladium Myr.
If you run the usual amount of artifacts in your cube (12-15%) and are supporting both the artifact deck and the ramp deck, then Metalworker is a good card for your cube.
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Metalworker is much more powerful than PM, but PM can find a home in more decks.
-AA
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And yes, I run Paladium Myr in my cube, and not Metalworker. But if I subbed back in the artifact package, I'd try Metalworker; my group doesn't mind the swinginess, and I think we'd find it the more fun card.
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