My argument is that she makes Sun Titan redundant to the point that we don't play him.
Unlike Reveillark, Sun Titan can realistically close out a game on his own, can recur things that aren't creatures (I have seen him used on fetches, Strip Mine, Oblivion Ring, Liliana of the Veil, Jace Beleren, and Umezawa's Jitte, among other things), can recur good creatures that Reveillark can't (Fleshbag Marauder is pretty brutal), has an immediate impact on the board, doesn't need to die to provide value, recurs things multiple times without shenanigans, and can block after attacking. They are used for completely different things and play completely different roles.
Sun Titan's just not that great in Cube IMO. Reveillark is way better in UW decks which are the natural home of these white finishers. Meanwhile, Elesh Norn is about 1000x times better to reanimate and its arguable that you're better off trying to build your deck to get to 7 and hardcast her. The same goes for Angel of Serenity who has the large advantage that she flies too.
Yeah, Titan is ok to reanimate himself but those two are in the stratosphere comparably speaking.
Uh, I don't think I'd ever call Reveillark a white finisher; it is at best a combo piece that lets you get your finisher out (i.e. Reveillark -> Karmic Guide -> something). Have you played Sun Titan very much? Because the two cards play totally different roles; having one in the deck does not make me not want the other.
Also, the presence of better finishers in white (and I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Angel of Serenity is a better finisher than Sun Titan) doesn't automatically mean that Sun Titan has no place. There is space in most cubes for (at least) three white finishers.
Unlike Reveillark, Sun Titan can realistically close out a game on his own, can recur things that aren't creatures (I have seen him used on fetches, Strip Mine, Oblivion Ring, Liliana of the Veil, Jace Beleren, and Umezawa's Jitte, among other things), can recur good creatures that Reveillark can't (Fleshbag Marauder is pretty brutal), has an immediate impact on the board, doesn't need to die to provide value, recurs things multiple times without shenanigans, and can block while attacking. They are used for completely different things and play completely different roles.
He doesn't end up in the same decks as many of those cards though, at least for us. I agree that he has better utility targets in general.
Unlike Reveillark, Sun Titan can realistically close out a game on his own, can recur things that aren't creatures (I have seen him used on fetches, Strip Mine, Oblivion Ring, Liliana of the Veil, Jace Beleren, and Umezawa's Jitte, among other things), can recur good creatures that Reveillark can't (Fleshbag Marauder is pretty brutal), has an immediate impact on the board, doesn't need to die to provide value, recurs things multiple times without shenanigans, and can block after attacking. They are used for completely different things and play completely different roles.
EDIT:
Uh, I don't think I'd ever call Reveillark a white finisher; it is at best a combo piece that lets you get your finisher out (i.e. Reveillark -> Karmic Guide -> something). Have you played Sun Titan very much? Because the two cards play totally different roles; having one in the deck does not make me not want the other.
Also, the presence of better finishers in white (and I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Angel of Serenity is a better finisher than Sun Titan) doesn't automatically mean that Sun Titan has no place. There is space in most cubes for (at least) three white finishers.
Sun Titan is pretty sick but everything is sick for 6 mana. I call Reveillark a "finisher" not because she auto wins the game but becuase she is 5+.
For true finishers we like Elesh Norn, Angel of Serenity, and Entreat the Angels. Plus we also run Baneslayer Angel (who is easily cuttable but is beloved by players and a brick house vs Aggro).
I include Sun Titan and not 'Lark so it's clear which I think is better. They don't perform remotely the same roles, though. Sun Titan just gets the job done as a massive card advantage and board presence generating monster; Lark is a 'combo' piece who doubles as a decent flier. The fact that they both recur something is the only thing they have in common. They are both very good. I'm not sure why they're being directly compared though.
Also, I think BSA is actually even better than Elesh Norn, Angel of Serenity and Entreat, all of whom are excellent. I wouldn't run all three of the latter (after Sun Titan) until hitting a very large cube size though; I think that is too many finishers.
Sun Titan is pretty sick but everything is sick for 6 mana. I call Reveillark a "finisher" not because she auto wins the game but becuase she is 5+.
For true finishers we like Elesh Norn, Angel of Serenity, and Entreat the Angels. Plus we also run Baneslayer Angel (who is easily cuttable but is beloved by players and a brick house vs Aggro).
So, you call it a finisher even though it won't finish the game for you? Why are you calling it a finisher, then? Do you often win by swinging for 2 every turn with a Lark? (EDIT: I can't read, but the point still stands) I don't consider Mulldrifter a finisher, even though I usually play it as a 5-drop. A finisher needs to actually win the game for me, and Sun Titan does that on its own while Lark is pretty bad at it.
I agree that Reveillark is an amazing value card (a guy I draft with will pretty much only pick Sol Ring and power over it), but it plays a totally different role in a deck than Sun Titan. Reveillark is either a combo piece, or you use it in a deck with a bunch of creatures with less than 2 power for value. Sun Titan, by contrast, is a finisher in pretty much any W/x control deck, and one of the best; I don't need many targets for Sun Titan to feel happy playing him. They don't compete for the same deck slots, and they don't perform similar roles in decks. Why would you cut Sun Titan because of Reveillark?
Also, on white finishers, I'd probably only rank Elesh Norn higher than Sun Titan, because she's just such an enormous board swing (also, her foil is beautiful). I have not had good experiences with Entreat the Angels in cube (nor with most miracles); I'd almost rather use Decree of Justice, and that hasn't been good for a long time. Angel of Serenity is fine, but 7 is a lot more than 6, and I think that Elesh Norn is just better in the 7-slot (and how many 7-cmc creatures do you really need in your white section?).
Am I not getting something on Baneslayer Angel, by the way? How is it "easily cuttable?" That card is still nuts to me; even getting to attack with it once is such a beating.
Am I not getting something on Baneslayer Angel, by the way? How is it "easily cuttable?" That card is still nuts to me; even getting to attack with it once is such a beating.
Baneslayer is yet another aggro hoser whose claim to fame is that she works for less (5 mana). I know it is difficult to accept or contemplate that a creature that strong might not be an auto-include, but she is basically a hoser, in a color replete with them.
I think one thing is that most Cubes don't have Moat, which is a big factor in setting my opinion. That and the fact that we like to cheat our fatties into play and don't think hardcasting 6 drops is a winning strategy very often.
What combos do you pull off with it? We played Protean Hulk for a while just hoping someone would get the Kiki+Karmic+Carrion Feeder combo off but it didn't happen.
Baneslayer is yet another aggro hoser whose claim to fame is that he works for less (5 mana). I know it is difficult to accept or contemplate that a creature that strong might not be an auto-include, but she is basically a hoser, in a color replete with them.
I think one thing is that most Cubes don't have Moat, which is a big factor in setting my opinion. That and the fact that we like to cheat our fatties into play and don't think hardcasting 6 drops is a winning strategy very often.
I think that your cube is very, very different than any cube I've played in before. Is it a combo cube? Super-aggro? Because your statements just don't jive with any cube I've played or heard of.
Baneslayer Angel isn't a "hoser" most times that I've played it; it's a legitimate top-end for aggro and midrange decks, and a solid win-con for control decks (though, since we were talking about it in this thread, worse than Sun Titan and Elesh Norn). It is incredible against aggro, but it's also really good in almost any matchup (against Tinker/reanimator, not so much).
Also, one card in your cube should not be affecting how all of your matches play out, nor should it really affect your cube's construction (especially since the powered cube that I draft the most has Moat in it, along with ways to tutor it/cheat it into play). I don't know what size cube you play, but the chance of seeing a Moat in any given game is pretty low, especially if you aren't drafting the entire cube at once. I'm not going to cut an amazing card from my cube because it could be bad against a deck that has a card that might not even be drafted.
Lastly, if hard-casting fatties isn't a winning strategy in your cube, I'd hazard a guess that your cube's balance is waaaay different than what I'm used to. Do you get a lot of control decks? Because for me not to want to hardcast my fatties/finishers, I think that the cube would need to not be supporting ramp (in green or with mana rocks), and that aggro and combo decks would need to be very heavily pushed to the point that I would expect not to be able to live long enough to cast my 6-drops.
Basically, I think that all of our differing opinions probably stem from your cube environment, either in the construction of the cube or in the way that your group drafts. At this point, we're basically going to be talking past each other.
What combos do you pull off with it? We played Protean Hulk for a while just hoping someone would get the Kiki+Karmic+Carrion Feeder combo off but it didn't happen.
The most common is Reveillark into Karmic Guide, which is extremely strong, but I was using "combo" kind of loosely; usually it entails getting back creatures with ETB effects to do a lot at once (i.e. Reveillark to get back a Mulldrifter and Blade Splicer, or something). The combo is usually more like Erratic Portal + Reveillark. But there are also times when I've seen people play it just to get back more dudes to attack with, or to get back creatures with relevant abilities, like Mom, Mirror Entity, clones, and looters.
We do play green ramp where it is definitely viable to hardcast fat (but rarely white ones other than Mirror Entity maybe). But we also do everything we can to ramp aggro, combo, and reanimator. Control is still ok but has access to a number of win-the-game combos itself. Also, we've added heavy mana denial in black which is a pretty big beating as well.
And we draft our whole cube or you're right, it wouldn't be as big a deal.
Baneslayer Angel is not a "hoser" unless you stretch the meaning of the word "hoser" to a point where it barely has any meaning. Hosers (in the negative connotation) are cards that are unbeatable against one particular archetype or strategy, but useless or underpowered in any other situation. Rest in Peace, Kor Firewalker, and Chill are hosers.
Baneslayer Angel is a creature that is an excellent answer in many situations, at worst a solid threat, and every archetype has multiple ways to deal with it. In addition, it's an iconic creature which is much of what Cube is about. I'd never cut it at 450.
We do play green ramp where it is definitely viable to hardcast fat (but rarely white ones other than Mirror Entity maybe). But we also do everything we can to ramp aggro, combo, and reanimator. Control is still ok but has access to a number of win-the-game combos itself. Also, we've added heavy mana denial in black which is a pretty big beating as well.
And we draft our whole cube or you're right, it wouldn't be as big a deal.
In a cube like that, then, yeah, I wouldn't want to hard-cast Sun Titan normally, either, and I'd probably think that Reveillark is better, because there doesn't seem to be much room in your cube for non-prison control decks to function (without a list, I obviously can't tell), especially ones that want to play remotely fair. But what this says (to me, anyway) is that your evaluation of cards in cube isn't really relevant to the rest of us; most of us (I'm pretty sure) don't "do everything we can to ramp aggro, combo, and reanimator" to the extent that your cube seems to, especially at the expense of other archetypes. This is probably why we disagree on cards like Sun Titan: our cube environments are totally different.
Also, even drafting your whole cube, cutting or playing cards just because of Moat is a bad idea. It'll only ever matter in one match a night (unless you're playing it, of course), and even if it's in the draft pool every time you play, it won't always see play. Unless you're doing two-man drafts, it shouldn't have that big of an influence. Not to mention that there are numerous ways to deal with it. Moat isn't causing the problem (if you want to call it a problem), it's your cube's construction.
I'm assuming that Reveillark will be played in the Moat deck since its the most natural fit.
If you're lucky enough to snag it in the draft, sure. But unless no one else wants to play control (granted, a distinct possibility, from what you've said), that shouldn't always happen.
If you're lucky enough to snag it in the draft, sure. But unless no one else wants to play control (granted, a distinct possibility, from what you've said), that shouldn't always happen.
In general we don't think UW control is that great so normally one player can snatch it up. Its not every time and I may have overstated how often it happens, but it would definitely factor in to our thinking.
1. Sun Titan has been much better for us than Reveillark. It's better at attacking, defending, is harder to kill, and the constant recursion is much harder to deal with than the one time recursion of Reveillark which is also more work to set up since it requires two cards.
2. Baneslayer is fine but I wouldn't blame anyone for cutting her. The white decks we play rarely want a 5 mana creature unless they are 3 color Bant.
How do 1. and 2. go together? If White doesn't typically want a 5 what about a 6? I know Sun Titan is a sick card but sometimes hes a 'just' 6/6 Vigilance for 6. Hes not a top target for reanimation and he doesn't have lifelink or anything so if he dies you better have gotten some good stuff back off his recursion.
How often does he have so many targets that you get more than what you get with Reveillark?
Also, I should add a caveat that I'm just talking about the relative goodness of the two cards. I'm not overly in love with Reveillark, but I play with a guy who is. And I agree that if Sun Titan hits the board with juicy targets and sticks then he is sick. But there's about 20 cards you could be cubing with that you could say the same about so that isn't (necessarily) enough to stand out.
How do 1. and 2. go together? If White doesn't typically want a 5 what about a 6? I know Sun Titan is a sick card but sometimes hes a 'just' 6/6 Vigilance for 6. Hes not a top target for reanimation and he doesn't have lifelink or anything so if he dies you better have gotten some good stuff back off his recursion.
How often does he have so many targets that you get more than what you get with Reveillark?
Also, I should add a caveat that I'm just talking about the relative goodness of the two cards. I'm not overly in love with Reveillark, but I play with a guy who is. And I agree that if Sun Titan hits the board with juicy targets and sticks then he is sick. But there's about 20 cards you could be cubing with that you could say the same about so that isn't (necessarily) enough to stand out.
I think he's a great reanimation target. You can play him early, beat for 6 and start recurring anything to great effect, even if it's "just a fetchland" I've recurred a snapcaster to cast reanimate from my graveyard again. i've used it to bring back oblivion stone and board wipe. I've made an engine out of vendilion clique, sun titan, and skullclamp. This guy's probably never leaving my cube.
I don't have much spot for fatties in my cube, but if WotC print another or two white fatties that's better than Sun Titan, I might see him off my cube. My cube size is rather small after all. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
How do 1. and 2. go together? If White doesn't typically want a 5 what about a 6? I know Sun Titan is a sick card but sometimes hes a 'just' 6/6 Vigilance for 6. Hes not a top target for reanimation and he doesn't have lifelink or anything so if he dies you better have gotten some good stuff back off his recursion.
How often does he have so many targets that you get more than what you get with Reveillark?
Also, I should add a caveat that I'm just talking about the relative goodness of the two cards. I'm not overly in love with Reveillark, but I play with a guy who is. And I agree that if Sun Titan hits the board with juicy targets and sticks then he is sick. But there's about 20 cards you could be cubing with that you could say the same about so that isn't (necessarily) enough to stand out.
Sometimes a Reveillark is just a 4/3 with flying. I also don't know why you think that Sun Titan's not a good reanimation target; he's a 6/6 with vigilance who gives you value immediately on hitting the board. Sure, Elesh Norn is a better reanimation target, but that's a really high bar to set.
I routinely have at least 3 targets in my graveyard for Sun Titan by the time I play him, usually stuff like fetches, Wall of Omens, Man o' War, Phyrexian Rager, and the like. I don't always get the chance to recur them all, but it's not like I'm often hurting for targets. I certainly don't have fewer targets than I would have for Reveillark on a regular basis.
Listen, I really think that either the structure of your cube or the way your playgroup drafts is making your experiences in cube not relevant to these kinds of discussions; your environment is just too different for useful comparisons. We're talking past each other. That you don't seem to consider actually hardcasting him viable, and that UW control apparently isn't good in your cube tells me volumes about how different your cube environment is from more standard cubes.
i've used it to bring back oblivion stone and board wipe. I've made an engine out of vendilion clique, sun titan, and skullclamp. This guy's probably never leaving my cube.
My favorite "engine" with Sun Titan is with Liliana of the Veil. Once you've recurred her (or played her or Titan with the other on the field), use her -2, if she survives until the next turn +1 (preferably dumping a land and getting it back), and if not recur her. It's especially good if she's at 2, because then you can -2, attack, get her back, and use one of her abilities again.
The white decks we play rarely want a 5 mana creature unless they are 3 color Bant.
Sun Titan really only sees play in Bant decks around here. I've never seen him paired with red or black. That may sound odd but we have a player who drafts Sun Titan very highly and (surprise surprise) almost always finds a way to draft Bant. He loves the archetype so much that we call value green and blue cards "Bennett cards".
Sun Titan really only sees play in Bant decks around here. I've never seen him paired with red or black. That may sound odd but we have a player who drafts Sun Titan very highly and (surprise surprise) almost always finds a way to draft Bant. He loves the archetype so much that we call value green and blue cards "Bennett cards".
Yeah, if we had anybody who loved drafting Titans (like for whatever reason s/he didn't get sick of them in limited) we'd put them all in. They're basically each the best 6s in their respective color which makes them either 'iconic' or 'stupid' depending on your perspective.
I think Primeval is the best one for our purposes because even if he gets removed it has the most lasting impact for the decks that want to play him. But if you're getting value out of ST all the time then hes much better than he is for us which is often 6/6 vigilance. Hey, it seems absurd to me that the bar for 6 mana is higher than "6/6 vigilance" (flash to 1996 me merrily playing Sol'kanar Swamp Kings and Mahomati Djinns). But the bar certainly is higher now.
Inferno Titan is great in red control but that deck can win with lots of finishers, many of whom serve additional roles in the Cube.
Frost Titan I can't say other than in M11&12. Blue is pretty weird/dumb because its arguable that none of its best finishers are creatures per se. Not coincidentally most of them aren't very fun either.
Grave Titan is probably the best <7 guy in Cube but we like our Sphinxes, Hellkites, Blighsteels, and Emrakuls.
Sun Titan really only sees play in Bant decks around here. I've never seen him paired with red or black. That may sound odd but we have a player who drafts Sun Titan very highly and (surprise surprise) almost always finds a way to draft Bant. He loves the archetype so much that we call value green and blue cards "Bennett cards".
That's very different from my experience. In my cube, Sun Titan sees play in just about every nonaggro white deck. He's been fantastic in WB midrange/control--recurring Bone Shredder/Necromancy/Fleshbag Marauder has all been awesome. I don't see him in red a lot, but I did once draft him and Baneslayer for a Wildfire deck. That was pretty fun. In one game I got to loop Ghitu Slinger for the win.
I see Sun Titan as one of the top white creatures. It's the first 6cc+ creature I'd add to a new cube. That said, Reveillark is also insane. I wouldn't cube without either one.
Hey rant, I think he probably would be great in that kind of deck. We don't have a ton of experience with this type of black configuration yet so we haven't experimented with all of the different possibilities.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Unlike Reveillark, Sun Titan can realistically close out a game on his own, can recur things that aren't creatures (I have seen him used on fetches, Strip Mine, Oblivion Ring, Liliana of the Veil, Jace Beleren, and Umezawa's Jitte, among other things), can recur good creatures that Reveillark can't (Fleshbag Marauder is pretty brutal), has an immediate impact on the board, doesn't need to die to provide value, recurs things multiple times without shenanigans, and can block after attacking. They are used for completely different things and play completely different roles.
EDIT:
Uh, I don't think I'd ever call Reveillark a white finisher; it is at best a combo piece that lets you get your finisher out (i.e. Reveillark -> Karmic Guide -> something). Have you played Sun Titan very much? Because the two cards play totally different roles; having one in the deck does not make me not want the other.
Also, the presence of better finishers in white (and I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Angel of Serenity is a better finisher than Sun Titan) doesn't automatically mean that Sun Titan has no place. There is space in most cubes for (at least) three white finishers.
He doesn't end up in the same decks as many of those cards though, at least for us. I agree that he has better utility targets in general.
Sun Titan is pretty sick but everything is sick for 6 mana. I call Reveillark a "finisher" not because she auto wins the game but becuase she is 5+.
For true finishers we like Elesh Norn, Angel of Serenity, and Entreat the Angels. Plus we also run Baneslayer Angel (who is easily cuttable but is beloved by players and a brick house vs Aggro).
Also, I think BSA is actually even better than Elesh Norn, Angel of Serenity and Entreat, all of whom are excellent. I wouldn't run all three of the latter (after Sun Titan) until hitting a very large cube size though; I think that is too many finishers.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
So, you call it a finisher even though it won't finish the game for you? Why are you calling it a finisher, then?
Do you often win by swinging for 2 every turn with a Lark?(EDIT: I can't read, but the point still stands) I don't consider Mulldrifter a finisher, even though I usually play it as a 5-drop. A finisher needs to actually win the game for me, and Sun Titan does that on its own while Lark is pretty bad at it.I agree that Reveillark is an amazing value card (a guy I draft with will pretty much only pick Sol Ring and power over it), but it plays a totally different role in a deck than Sun Titan. Reveillark is either a combo piece, or you use it in a deck with a bunch of creatures with less than 2 power for value. Sun Titan, by contrast, is a finisher in pretty much any W/x control deck, and one of the best; I don't need many targets for Sun Titan to feel happy playing him. They don't compete for the same deck slots, and they don't perform similar roles in decks. Why would you cut Sun Titan because of Reveillark?
Also, on white finishers, I'd probably only rank Elesh Norn higher than Sun Titan, because she's just such an enormous board swing (also, her foil is beautiful). I have not had good experiences with Entreat the Angels in cube (nor with most miracles); I'd almost rather use Decree of Justice, and that hasn't been good for a long time. Angel of Serenity is fine, but 7 is a lot more than 6, and I think that Elesh Norn is just better in the 7-slot (and how many 7-cmc creatures do you really need in your white section?).
Am I not getting something on Baneslayer Angel, by the way? How is it "easily cuttable?" That card is still nuts to me; even getting to attack with it once is such a beating.
Baneslayer is yet another aggro hoser whose claim to fame is that she works for less (5 mana). I know it is difficult to accept or contemplate that a creature that strong might not be an auto-include, but she is basically a hoser, in a color replete with them.
I think one thing is that most Cubes don't have Moat, which is a big factor in setting my opinion. That and the fact that we like to cheat our fatties into play and don't think hardcasting 6 drops is a winning strategy very often.
What combos do you pull off with it? We played Protean Hulk for a while just hoping someone would get the Kiki+Karmic+Carrion Feeder combo off but it didn't happen.
I think that your cube is very, very different than any cube I've played in before. Is it a combo cube? Super-aggro? Because your statements just don't jive with any cube I've played or heard of.
Baneslayer Angel isn't a "hoser" most times that I've played it; it's a legitimate top-end for aggro and midrange decks, and a solid win-con for control decks (though, since we were talking about it in this thread, worse than Sun Titan and Elesh Norn). It is incredible against aggro, but it's also really good in almost any matchup (against Tinker/reanimator, not so much).
Also, one card in your cube should not be affecting how all of your matches play out, nor should it really affect your cube's construction (especially since the powered cube that I draft the most has Moat in it, along with ways to tutor it/cheat it into play). I don't know what size cube you play, but the chance of seeing a Moat in any given game is pretty low, especially if you aren't drafting the entire cube at once. I'm not going to cut an amazing card from my cube because it could be bad against a deck that has a card that might not even be drafted.
Lastly, if hard-casting fatties isn't a winning strategy in your cube, I'd hazard a guess that your cube's balance is waaaay different than what I'm used to. Do you get a lot of control decks? Because for me not to want to hardcast my fatties/finishers, I think that the cube would need to not be supporting ramp (in green or with mana rocks), and that aggro and combo decks would need to be very heavily pushed to the point that I would expect not to be able to live long enough to cast my 6-drops.
Basically, I think that all of our differing opinions probably stem from your cube environment, either in the construction of the cube or in the way that your group drafts. At this point, we're basically going to be talking past each other.
EDIT:
The most common is Reveillark into Karmic Guide, which is extremely strong, but I was using "combo" kind of loosely; usually it entails getting back creatures with ETB effects to do a lot at once (i.e. Reveillark to get back a Mulldrifter and Blade Splicer, or something). The combo is usually more like Erratic Portal + Reveillark. But there are also times when I've seen people play it just to get back more dudes to attack with, or to get back creatures with relevant abilities, like Mom, Mirror Entity, clones, and looters.
And we draft our whole cube or you're right, it wouldn't be as big a deal.
Baneslayer Angel is a creature that is an excellent answer in many situations, at worst a solid threat, and every archetype has multiple ways to deal with it. In addition, it's an iconic creature which is much of what Cube is about. I'd never cut it at 450.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
In a cube like that, then, yeah, I wouldn't want to hard-cast Sun Titan normally, either, and I'd probably think that Reveillark is better, because there doesn't seem to be much room in your cube for non-prison control decks to function (without a list, I obviously can't tell), especially ones that want to play remotely fair. But what this says (to me, anyway) is that your evaluation of cards in cube isn't really relevant to the rest of us; most of us (I'm pretty sure) don't "do everything we can to ramp aggro, combo, and reanimator" to the extent that your cube seems to, especially at the expense of other archetypes. This is probably why we disagree on cards like Sun Titan: our cube environments are totally different.
Also, even drafting your whole cube, cutting or playing cards just because of Moat is a bad idea. It'll only ever matter in one match a night (unless you're playing it, of course), and even if it's in the draft pool every time you play, it won't always see play. Unless you're doing two-man drafts, it shouldn't have that big of an influence. Not to mention that there are numerous ways to deal with it. Moat isn't causing the problem (if you want to call it a problem), it's your cube's construction.
EDIT:
Also, I'd agree with this.
If you're lucky enough to snag it in the draft, sure. But unless no one else wants to play control (granted, a distinct possibility, from what you've said), that shouldn't always happen.
In general we don't think UW control is that great so normally one player can snatch it up. Its not every time and I may have overstated how often it happens, but it would definitely factor in to our thinking.
1. Sun Titan has been much better for us than Reveillark. It's better at attacking, defending, is harder to kill, and the constant recursion is much harder to deal with than the one time recursion of Reveillark which is also more work to set up since it requires two cards.
2. Baneslayer is fine but I wouldn't blame anyone for cutting her. The white decks we play rarely want a 5 mana creature unless they are 3 color Bant.
How often does he have so many targets that you get more than what you get with Reveillark?
Also, I should add a caveat that I'm just talking about the relative goodness of the two cards. I'm not overly in love with Reveillark, but I play with a guy who is. And I agree that if Sun Titan hits the board with juicy targets and sticks then he is sick. But there's about 20 cards you could be cubing with that you could say the same about so that isn't (necessarily) enough to stand out.
I think he's a great reanimation target. You can play him early, beat for 6 and start recurring anything to great effect, even if it's "just a fetchland" I've recurred a snapcaster to cast reanimate from my graveyard again. i've used it to bring back oblivion stone and board wipe. I've made an engine out of vendilion clique, sun titan, and skullclamp. This guy's probably never leaving my cube.
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
Sometimes a Reveillark is just a 4/3 with flying. I also don't know why you think that Sun Titan's not a good reanimation target; he's a 6/6 with vigilance who gives you value immediately on hitting the board. Sure, Elesh Norn is a better reanimation target, but that's a really high bar to set.
I routinely have at least 3 targets in my graveyard for Sun Titan by the time I play him, usually stuff like fetches, Wall of Omens, Man o' War, Phyrexian Rager, and the like. I don't always get the chance to recur them all, but it's not like I'm often hurting for targets. I certainly don't have fewer targets than I would have for Reveillark on a regular basis.
Listen, I really think that either the structure of your cube or the way your playgroup drafts is making your experiences in cube not relevant to these kinds of discussions; your environment is just too different for useful comparisons. We're talking past each other. That you don't seem to consider actually hardcasting him viable, and that UW control apparently isn't good in your cube tells me volumes about how different your cube environment is from more standard cubes.
My favorite "engine" with Sun Titan is with Liliana of the Veil. Once you've recurred her (or played her or Titan with the other on the field), use her -2, if she survives until the next turn +1 (preferably dumping a land and getting it back), and if not recur her. It's especially good if she's at 2, because then you can -2, attack, get her back, and use one of her abilities again.
Because like I said:
Sun Titan really only sees play in Bant decks around here. I've never seen him paired with red or black. That may sound odd but we have a player who drafts Sun Titan very highly and (surprise surprise) almost always finds a way to draft Bant. He loves the archetype so much that we call value green and blue cards "Bennett cards".
Yeah, if we had anybody who loved drafting Titans (like for whatever reason s/he didn't get sick of them in limited) we'd put them all in. They're basically each the best 6s in their respective color which makes them either 'iconic' or 'stupid' depending on your perspective.
I think Primeval is the best one for our purposes because even if he gets removed it has the most lasting impact for the decks that want to play him. But if you're getting value out of ST all the time then hes much better than he is for us which is often 6/6 vigilance. Hey, it seems absurd to me that the bar for 6 mana is higher than "6/6 vigilance" (flash to 1996 me merrily playing Sol'kanar Swamp Kings and Mahomati Djinns). But the bar certainly is higher now.
Inferno Titan is great in red control but that deck can win with lots of finishers, many of whom serve additional roles in the Cube.
Frost Titan I can't say other than in M11&12. Blue is pretty weird/dumb because its arguable that none of its best finishers are creatures per se. Not coincidentally most of them aren't very fun either.
Grave Titan is probably the best <7 guy in Cube but we like our Sphinxes, Hellkites, Blighsteels, and Emrakuls.
That's very different from my experience. In my cube, Sun Titan sees play in just about every nonaggro white deck. He's been fantastic in WB midrange/control--recurring Bone Shredder/Necromancy/Fleshbag Marauder has all been awesome. I don't see him in red a lot, but I did once draft him and Baneslayer for a Wildfire deck. That was pretty fun. In one game I got to loop Ghitu Slinger for the win.
I see Sun Titan as one of the top white creatures. It's the first 6cc+ creature I'd add to a new cube. That said, Reveillark is also insane. I wouldn't cube without either one.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963