I counted 15 legends in my cube. I know it is not very much but Karakas has no downside outside of taking a slot in the cube, as it acts as a normal plains (well ok it can Wastelanded).
You could also bounce opponents creatures and basically negate them.
Fair enough. I feel like with just 15 legendary it is just too low impact. If I am going to make room for a non-basic land the land needs to offer something for almost any deck, or cater to a deck that has some sort of density in terms of what I am trying to achieve with the land. A good example is Windbrisk Heights. If I have a lot of aggro that usually runs white, I would put the land in because I want it's ability to be consistent rather than shine once in a blue moon.
I don't see any drafter with some level of sense taking this as an early pick and even as a late pick I feel there would still be better options and even then it might just fall dead and waste a pick.
It has marginal value like pendelhaven when you put it into your deck. The reason I wanted to add it was because of it's crazyness in legacy, where it bounces game winning emrakuls and combos with venser shaper savant and vendilion clique. Then I realized that there is only venser and clique in the cube that are worth putting karakas in your deck. It's more of a blue card than a white card because of it.
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I meant concerning playability. I am not that stupid that I dont know that this is a big downside.
It doesn't improve the environment in a way that a card in the cube should. It's too situational, inconsistent and low impact. It's bomb with Venser, and frustrating for your opponent if their best win con happens to be a legend, but otherwise it's not worth a card.
I think karakas is OK. But everyone has already said this, its harsh to give up a slot.
I suppose the better question, is at what cube size does it become a worth while add? Seeing that this card is based on the amount of legends per total number of cube cards, the larger the cube, the worse karakas becomes... unless you add a lot of legends.
So, then, it may become very hard to add to a cube of any size, unless you kit that cube out specifically for karakas interactions.
Actually, any cube with the eldrazi might consider karakas. Or other insane legends.
If Planeswalkers were legends, then this would be a slam dunk, but the interactions where you profit seem so rare that I wouldn't give up the slot another solid weenie or wrath variant would fill. Sucks because I love Karakas and have no where to play it...
Seems like a pretty sweet inclusion in an EDH cube, but not that great in a traditional dueling cube. I wouldn't run it in my 360 at all.
It's not that the card would be left in my sideboard because it's not good enough, it's that it would constantly go 12-15 pick and never be a high draft priority. If I get it in my pool, I'd use it, and if I don't, I won't care (outside of the rare Venser/Clique combos). That makes it a wasted slot in the cube.
yeah, its more of a question of what ratio of legends to cube size. At what point does it make it worth running karakas?
I don't really know. I mean, if the average deck had 2 legends in it, it would be worth it. So that would mean a 360 cube would need at least 16 legends, and all of them would have to be main decked every draft. So, if 2/3s of the legends in the cube made people's final 40s in the draft, you'd need probably 24 legends for every 360 cards. So in my 540 cube, I'd need 32 legendary creatures.
Karakas is a weird card, because while its power is quite narrow and fairly low level, it has almost no downside thanks to be a color producing non-Citptap land. When it was in our cube, it actually ended up getting drafted fairly high (not first picked or anything) and it was maindecked almost 100% of the time. We ended up cutting it for non power reasons. The card just didn't feel right, and not in a fun way. No one has missed it. This is fairly subjective though, so I don't blame anyone for trying it out and seeing if it is right for their group.
As long as the number of legends continues to rise, I may give it a shot in the future. I just think the count is too low at the moment for it to be anything more than a niche combo card with a handful of targets.
People who don't run karakas should take a strong look at how many legends have been added in the past 2 years... Wouldn't be surprised if the legend count has doubled.
Guild leaders, new planeswalker/creatures, parents of planeswalker/creatures... Card is likely worth another test if you were on the fence a while ago.
There were a lot of legends added recently, but who is honestly running many guild leaders?
I'd take that term broadly; Khans, Gods, and factional leaders of all sorts.
I do agree that this card has become much better in recent years, perhaps almost too good. It just completely blanks some Reanimator decks and is a mega-Crystal Shard against a reasonable portion of cube cards (10%, perhaps) at no deckbuilding cost whatsoever. Even if it's only 1 or 2 cards in each of your decks, that's still the equivalent of a very powerful conspiracy.
Here's a list of legends that I've added to my cube since the thread was last updated:
4+ MTG origin planeswalkers
K&P Nalaar
Anafenza, kin-tree spirit (probably only me)
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Sidisi, Undead Visier
Tasigur, The golden Fang
Zurgo, Bellstriker
Alesha, who smiles at death
Feldon of the third path
Yasova Dragonclaw
Surrak the huntcaller
Dragonlord Atarka
Grenzo, Dungeon warden
Dragonlord Silumgar
Dragonlord Ojutai
18 legends in the past two years, almost doubling the legend count for most cubes... And I expect the trend of increasing legend composition in cubes to continue.
I think if power level is one of your biggest criteria for including cards, it's spew not to at least give karakas another test run.
I'd say the biggest criticism is that it's a bit oppressive against some decks. Occasionally it's too good.
I'd say the biggest criticism is that it's a bit oppressive against some decks. Occasionally it's too good.
It's either really oppressive or a Plains that can be Wastelanded, with very little in-between. Some players are willing to gamble on that kind of variance, and others aren't. When it's good, it's nasty good, but when it's off, it doesn't do anything. The opportunity cost to include it in your deck is low, because it just replaces a Plains. But the opportunity cost of including it in the cube and drafting it is high, because it takes up a slot that could be used to make a specific archetype work, or allow a deck to reach a critical mass of needed effects. It can be very powerful, but there are legitimate criticisms about the card beyond it being "too good" ...which seems as disingenuous as saying that someone's character flaw is that they're "too nice".
Now, that being said, your post is awesome, and I'm glad you're championing for this card. There are a lot more legends in the cube than there used to be, so it may be a card that should be re-tested again. With more targets, the opportunity for it to do bonkers things goes up, and with a bunch new legends coming in right now, it's the best time to test it out. I will probably give it another shot, based on your suggestions, so I'm glad you brought it up.
I agree with your additional crticisms, which is why, despite me thinking the card is really strong, it's always on the cusp of being included and being cut.
Karakas before was insane 10% of the time, and a plains 90% of the time. (pulling numbers out of my ass)
Maybe now it's going to be insane 20% of the time, plains 80% of the time , which is good enough to slightly draft around... Making it a better card for cube. If I see a karakas mid-pick, it might pull me into an archetype that can take advantage of abusing it. Any relatively cheap legend with ETB effects.
I don't know exactly how powerful karakas is relative to cards like mutavault, treetop village, farie conclave, but I certainly prefer the consistant variance profiles on the man-lands.
That being said, if power is a prime concern for the cards you put in your cube, there comes a point where the legend/creature ratio is high enough that karakas' mean power level will be MUCH higher than the man lands. Maybe the sub-optimal variance profile is worth it to support it's power.
Plus, the card does create some interesting draft decisions. Venser + Karakas, Clique + Karakas, Nalaars + Karakas, Nissa + Karakas off the top of my head, all seem pretty sweet.
The card has game when its live; on offense or defense the card is sweet if it finds legends.
I did the math, and in the average draft of my cube, each player should have 2.8 legends in the 45-card post-draft pile they're building their deck from (including Origins). Which is going to be between 1-3 legendary creatures per deck. Now, the player playing the Karakas will use all of their legends (2-3) so the average game should feature 3-6 potential Karakas targets between the two players. That is close to three times what it was the last time I tested Karakas. Thanks for bringing up this card again, it's worth a spin in the current list to see how it does.
I've had Karakas in since the inception of my cube (waayyy cheaper back then), and I was wondering why I don't see more people playing it (which prompted my question on white utility land rankings).
Despite the higher variance than say, Kor Haven, the potential for memorable moments with Karakas has endeared it to my playgroup. Venser plus Karakas is brutal; Kor Haven neutralizing their attacker just doesn't possess the same wow factor. And I like to include some cards that trade consistency for power like Progenitus, Metalworker, and/or Time Vault.
As Lucid points out, the fact that Karakas only gets better over time is just gravy.
And, again as you guys pointed out, the ability to use it both offensively and defensively is also a huge plus. Which is why I have preferred both Karakas and Kjeldoran Outpost to the more archetype specific Haven and Windbrisk Heights.
This card is secretly bonkers in Cube. Does not take up a spell slot in your deck, and when it's live (meaning: your opponent casts a legend), oh boy is it live. Gets better with every expansion. When it comes to your own deck, it doesn't have to be Venser or Clique all the time, just protecting Isamaru/Thalia/Geist of Saint Traft is really quite ridiculous at no cost whatsoever. I think it's also a really interesting draft decision, and since I always seem to get it, I think most of the others get it wrong
I counted 15 legends in my cube. I know it is not very much but Karakas has no downside outside of taking a slot in the cube, as it acts as a normal plains (well ok it can Wastelanded).
But I think it overall has too low impact?
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Fair enough. I feel like with just 15 legendary it is just too low impact. If I am going to make room for a non-basic land the land needs to offer something for almost any deck, or cater to a deck that has some sort of density in terms of what I am trying to achieve with the land. A good example is Windbrisk Heights. If I have a lot of aggro that usually runs white, I would put the land in because I want it's ability to be consistent rather than shine once in a blue moon.
I don't see any drafter with some level of sense taking this as an early pick and even as a late pick I feel there would still be better options and even then it might just fall dead and waste a pick.
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That's a pretty big downside.
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It doesn't improve the environment in a way that a card in the cube should. It's too situational, inconsistent and low impact. It's bomb with Venser, and frustrating for your opponent if their best win con happens to be a legend, but otherwise it's not worth a card.
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I suppose the better question, is at what cube size does it become a worth while add? Seeing that this card is based on the amount of legends per total number of cube cards, the larger the cube, the worse karakas becomes... unless you add a lot of legends.
So, then, it may become very hard to add to a cube of any size, unless you kit that cube out specifically for karakas interactions.
Actually, any cube with the eldrazi might consider karakas. Or other insane legends.
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Just because you may or may not have 1-2 Eldrazi floating around in the entire cube ...it doesn't change my evaluation of Karakas at all.
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yeah, its more of a question of what ratio of legends to cube size. At what point does it make it worth running karakas?
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It's not that the card would be left in my sideboard because it's not good enough, it's that it would constantly go 12-15 pick and never be a high draft priority. If I get it in my pool, I'd use it, and if I don't, I won't care (outside of the rare Venser/Clique combos). That makes it a wasted slot in the cube.
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I don't really know. I mean, if the average deck had 2 legends in it, it would be worth it. So that would mean a 360 cube would need at least 16 legends, and all of them would have to be main decked every draft. So, if 2/3s of the legends in the cube made people's final 40s in the draft, you'd need probably 24 legends for every 360 cards. So in my 540 cube, I'd need 32 legendary creatures.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Guild leaders, new planeswalker/creatures, parents of planeswalker/creatures... Card is likely worth another test if you were on the fence a while ago.
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thats my cube
I'd take that term broadly; Khans, Gods, and factional leaders of all sorts.
I do agree that this card has become much better in recent years, perhaps almost too good. It just completely blanks some Reanimator decks and is a mega-Crystal Shard against a reasonable portion of cube cards (10%, perhaps) at no deckbuilding cost whatsoever. Even if it's only 1 or 2 cards in each of your decks, that's still the equivalent of a very powerful conspiracy.
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4+ MTG origin planeswalkers
K&P Nalaar
Anafenza, kin-tree spirit (probably only me)
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Sidisi, Undead Visier
Tasigur, The golden Fang
Zurgo, Bellstriker
Alesha, who smiles at death
Feldon of the third path
Yasova Dragonclaw
Surrak the huntcaller
Dragonlord Atarka
Grenzo, Dungeon warden
Dragonlord Silumgar
Dragonlord Ojutai
18 legends in the past two years, almost doubling the legend count for most cubes... And I expect the trend of increasing legend composition in cubes to continue.
I think if power level is one of your biggest criteria for including cards, it's spew not to at least give karakas another test run.
I'd say the biggest criticism is that it's a bit oppressive against some decks. Occasionally it's too good.
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It's either really oppressive or a Plains that can be Wastelanded, with very little in-between. Some players are willing to gamble on that kind of variance, and others aren't. When it's good, it's nasty good, but when it's off, it doesn't do anything. The opportunity cost to include it in your deck is low, because it just replaces a Plains. But the opportunity cost of including it in the cube and drafting it is high, because it takes up a slot that could be used to make a specific archetype work, or allow a deck to reach a critical mass of needed effects. It can be very powerful, but there are legitimate criticisms about the card beyond it being "too good" ...which seems as disingenuous as saying that someone's character flaw is that they're "too nice".
Now, that being said, your post is awesome, and I'm glad you're championing for this card. There are a lot more legends in the cube than there used to be, so it may be a card that should be re-tested again. With more targets, the opportunity for it to do bonkers things goes up, and with a bunch new legends coming in right now, it's the best time to test it out. I will probably give it another shot, based on your suggestions, so I'm glad you brought it up.
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Karakas before was insane 10% of the time, and a plains 90% of the time. (pulling numbers out of my ass)
Maybe now it's going to be insane 20% of the time, plains 80% of the time , which is good enough to slightly draft around... Making it a better card for cube. If I see a karakas mid-pick, it might pull me into an archetype that can take advantage of abusing it. Any relatively cheap legend with ETB effects.
I don't know exactly how powerful karakas is relative to cards like mutavault, treetop village, farie conclave, but I certainly prefer the consistant variance profiles on the man-lands.
That being said, if power is a prime concern for the cards you put in your cube, there comes a point where the legend/creature ratio is high enough that karakas' mean power level will be MUCH higher than the man lands. Maybe the sub-optimal variance profile is worth it to support it's power.
Plus, the card does create some interesting draft decisions. Venser + Karakas, Clique + Karakas, Nalaars + Karakas, Nissa + Karakas off the top of my head, all seem pretty sweet.
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I did the math, and in the average draft of my cube, each player should have 2.8 legends in the 45-card post-draft pile they're building their deck from (including Origins). Which is going to be between 1-3 legendary creatures per deck. Now, the player playing the Karakas will use all of their legends (2-3) so the average game should feature 3-6 potential Karakas targets between the two players. That is close to three times what it was the last time I tested Karakas. Thanks for bringing up this card again, it's worth a spin in the current list to see how it does.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Despite the higher variance than say, Kor Haven, the potential for memorable moments with Karakas has endeared it to my playgroup. Venser plus Karakas is brutal; Kor Haven neutralizing their attacker just doesn't possess the same wow factor. And I like to include some cards that trade consistency for power like Progenitus, Metalworker, and/or Time Vault.
As Lucid points out, the fact that Karakas only gets better over time is just gravy.
And, again as you guys pointed out, the ability to use it both offensively and defensively is also a huge plus. Which is why I have preferred both Karakas and Kjeldoran Outpost to the more archetype specific Haven and Windbrisk Heights.
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