How can Library be bad? At worst it is a colorless utility land ...
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I think you misunderstood what he was saying. He said something like "oh, a Library, I'll side in wasteland for game 3 but I don't think we're going to game 3."
He says this because he has the splinter twin combo in hand and a lot of interaction, not because he thinks library is bad. In fact, he's saying library is good and he'll side against it if it goes to game 3. And again, a card can be both overrated AND good.
And to be fair, he doesn't really lose to library. He loses to never drawing a 4th land, and then loses to twin combo in game 3.
Oh note here, at 3:00 he first picks remand over library. Seems crazy to me, but LSV plays a LOT of modo cube (and wins a lot), and I never do, so maybe that's defendable in this format.
At 1:36, he does first pick library FWIW and explains why he doesn't think it's good. Again, I dunno if I agree with his assessment, but it might be true in the modo cube as I never play it.
There's a few things here. In the early days of the MTGO cube, Library was pretty largely overrated by drafters and I remember it being called the 10th piece of power, a title that I think more fits Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. But early on when many people were being introduced to cube, Library was being taken as highly as Moxen and Time Walk. Now, the MTGO community generally has a much better understanding of cube. Mana fixing lands are taken much higher than they were before, and the archetypes in the cube are more understood.
Another thing that hurt Library in the MTGO cube, is that in some of the more recent versions, the cube was less about grinding out a match, and more about turn 1 Tinkers and turn 2 Channels. Library didn't really fit into that playstyle. The last version of the MTGO cube I feel took steps to fix some issues that led to that, and was one of the better iterations of the Vintage cube that have been featured on MTGO.
Library definitely got better when the Draw 7 + Leovold/Narset Archetype was introduced. If you have ways to consistently turn Library back on, it has more games where it can be relevant.
Another thing I think worth saying, is Library is a difficult card to play. I think sometimes players get stuck on the Library plan, when it would be better for them to say "Library has drawn enough cards this game, and I should start double-spelling." It can be skill-testing to known when to stay on the Library plan and when to start emptying your hand. This can lead players to feel Library underperforming.
Library is currently criminally underrated by the MTGO community. It's not rare to see it wheel during the draft portion. As Breathe1234 mentioned, it has a pretty high floor of being a land that taps for mana, and an incredibly high ceiling. Library is kind of like the MDFC Zendikar lands where sometimes it's worse than a basic land, but sometimes it wins the game. Besides mono red, I think any deck should be able to find a way to maindeck Library and it should play well.
There's a few things here. In the early days of the MTGO cube, Library was pretty largely overrated by drafters and I remember it being called the 10th piece of power, a title that I think more fits Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. But early on when many people were being introduced to cube, Library was being taken as highly as Moxen and Time Walk. Now, the MTGO community generally has a much better understanding of cube. Mana fixing lands are taken much higher than they were before, and the archetypes in the cube are more understood.
Isn't Sol Ring the 1st piece of power, crypt is the 10th, and twister is the "well it's been real but see you later" piece of power?
I know he didn't it mention it there, but he said so earlier in that recording (i.e. saying remand is better than library which is just lol).
And yes, he did lose to Library. Certainly it didn't help not drawing enough lands, but I still believe that if the opponent didnt have library, then LSV would still have a chance winning that game.
The best way to keep Library in check is to make sure red and white (and black) aggro is competitive ... avoid overemphasizing combo and storm like the MTGO cube and then good aggressive decks will be able to run over durdly library decks and keep them in check.
I also agree that LSV is way too down on Mind Twist, which is think is also a top 30 card comparable to Libary in power and just slightly worse because it doesn't slot into as many decks and is thus a marginally worse P1P1
I still think it's in the top 10 cube cards and likely in the top 5.
Cheers,
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Agreed. Ridiculous ceiling, decent floor, zero opportunity cost, archetype / color agnostic. Zero risk, high reward card. Can never go wrong with picking / playing Library of Alexandria.
I am a crazy person who runs Library in my unpowered cube (but not Sol Ring), and it's far and away the best card. The cube is big enough that it doesn't always show up, which makes the experience more notable for whoever drafts it.
It feels slightly less egregious than Sol Ring because its power is on a different axis than most of the actual Power 9, but only slightly.
I am a crazy person who runs Library in my unpowered cube (but not Sol Ring), and it's far and away the best card. The cube is big enough that it doesn't always show up, which makes the experience more notable for whoever drafts it.
It feels slightly less egregious than Sol Ring because its power is on a different axis than most of the actual Power 9, but only slightly.
I did this until last year. We still have Time Walk because we view it as similar to Balance and Channel, but Library earned the ban after being the clear #1 p1p1 in the Cube.
I am a crazy person who runs Library in my unpowered cube (but not Sol Ring), and it's far and away the best card. The cube is big enough that it doesn't always show up, which makes the experience more notable for whoever drafts it.
It feels slightly less egregious than Sol Ring because its power is on a different axis than most of the actual Power 9, but only slightly.
The slower / less high powered your cube is, the stronger Library of Alexandria becomes.
I did this until last year. We still have Time Walk because we view it as similar to Balance and Channel, but Library earned the ban after being the clear #1 p1p1 in the Cube.
The first iteration of my unpowered cube had Time Walk in it and the first edit I made was removing it immediately. It's a way different beast than Chanel / Balance, which need to at least be built around to be played effectively. Time Walk just goes into any blue deck and it isn't too hard to re-cast / recur it.
For another datapoint on this and to show that LSV isn't the only top cube player saying that Library is not a top 5-10 pick that is better than something like Ancestral Recall, consider the top 50 list from bennyhillz, who has been the MTGO Vintage trophy leader several times along with a solid 8 man pod trophy rate in the 40-50% region.
Library is in the 17th spot, well below all the moxen and below some other bomb cards.
See the attached image from the end of the youtube video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Ys4N5GlAY
I play since 1997, my worst feeling at a match is to see my opponent drop turn 1 library at play or draw.
There is no other card creates that bad feeling. No lotus no sol ring no recall no mox first play creates that feeling.
With the artifacts I know i will have some sort of removal for those or for the threat, with recall maybe they draw bad, but man when i see recall how i will answer it with so many restricted answers?
Always speaking for the feeling saw first card /play from opponent in a duel.
The main problem with library is that it does stone nothing if you draw it with 5 or less cards in hand. Yes, it's absurd on turn 1, and against any non-aggro, non-combo opponent, you can't lose. However, if you draw it on turn 4 or later, it does nothing in a whole lot of games. None of the other absurd cards in cube are that do nothing later in the game.
That being said, these lists putting gold cards above library seem crazy, but again, I don't play MODO vintage cube.
The main problem with library is that it does stone nothing if you draw it with 5 or less cards in hand. Yes, it's absurd on turn 1, and against any non-aggro, non-combo opponent, you can't lose. However, if you draw it on turn 4 or later, it does nothing in a whole lot of games. None of the other absurd cards in cube are that do nothing later in the game.
I definitely place Library below plenty of the other power. But saying that none of the other absurd cards in cube are do nothing when drawn late seems flat out wrong. When drawing it turn 4+, if you are out of lands, the moxen will act as a land in many cases and so be fairly comparable to drawing Library. Even Sol Ring, which I would say is the best P1P1 tied with Recall can be pretty interchangable with a land when drawn later in the game, as you might not be in a situation where the ramp does anything for you.
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For another datapoint on this and to show that LSV isn't the only top cube player saying that Library is not a top 5-10 pick that is better than something like Ancestral Recall, consider the top 50 list from bennyhillz, who has been the MTGO Vintage trophy leader several times along with a solid 8 man pod trophy rate in the 40-50% region.
Library is in the 17th spot, well below all the moxen and below some other bomb cards.
See the attached image from the end of the youtube video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Ys4N5GlAY
Fractured Identity is that high?
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
For another datapoint on this and to show that LSV isn't the only top cube player saying that Library is not a top 5-10 pick that is better than something like Ancestral Recall, consider the top 50 list from bennyhillz, who has been the MTGO Vintage trophy leader several times along with a solid 8 man pod trophy rate in the 40-50% region.
Library is in the 17th spot, well below all the moxen and below some other bomb cards.
See the attached image from the end of the youtube video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Ys4N5GlAY
Fractured Identity is that high?
Yes - bennyhillz gives a great explanation of why it is so powerful.
I'm confident LSV would pick it P1P1 over Library and I would too, as blasphemous as that may seem to many.
Being able to permanently steal their most powerful bomb in a non reversible way (unlike enchantments) while getting the enter the battlefield trigger ability as well is incredibly backbreaking for only 5 mana.
I would say you win about 80-90% of the games you resolve a Fractured Identity, and it's one of the best topdecks in the game.
Jam a couple ways to tutor it and you can swing the game in an almost irreversible fashion at any point.
The main problem with library is that it does stone nothing if you draw it with 5 or less cards in hand.
This isn't true at all, it's still a land...
It's essentially nothing, as it doesn't ramp or fix you at all. It's worse than a basic there. Whereas the other backbreaking turn1 cards (crypt, ring, mox, lotus) still ramp you or let you do 2-spell turns, and recall and timewalk are great at any point during the game.
I have very limited experience with powered cube (probably ~10 drafts), so I could be wildly off here, but it makes perfect sense to me that Library is among the best of those cards in your starting hand and absolutely the worst if you draw it later.
I definitely place Library below plenty of the other power. But saying that none of the other absurd cards in cube are do nothing when drawn late seems flat out wrong. When drawing it turn 4+, if you are out of lands, the moxen will act as a land in many cases and so be fairly comparable to drawing Library. Even Sol Ring, which I would say is the best P1P1 tied with Recall can be pretty interchangable with a land when drawn later in the game, as you might not be in a situation where the ramp does anything for you.
Except the number of times where you have 5 cards in hand and 0 lands is substantially lower than the number of times where you just have 5 cards in hand. In a LOT of decks without card draw, library with 5 cards in hand will only ever be a colorless land cause you can't take 2 turns off. Moxes can still fix and ramp, and sol ring and mana crypt both can still ramp and let you cast stuff 2 turns early or do multi-spell turns. Library doesn't. Library will be nothing but a bad land in a whole lot of decks if you don't draw it till turn 3-4.
It's still a bonkers magic card, don't get me wrong. But it's not enough better on turn 1 than being 1-2 mana ahead for the rest of the game that it makes up for all the games where it's just a colorless land, and recall is great no matter when you draw it while time walk is good (explore) to game winning whenever you draw it. Yes, every piece of power has a portion in the game where they "do nothing" except recall and time walk. The portion for library is substantially larger.
It's still a bonkers magic card, don't get me wrong. But it's not enough better on turn 1 than being 1-2 mana ahead for the rest of the game that it makes up for all the games where it's just a colorless land, and recall is great no matter when you draw it while time walk is good (explore) to game winning whenever you draw it. Yes, every piece of power has a portion in the game where they "do nothing" except recall and time walk. The portion for library is substantially larger.
I think we are talking slightly past each other here. My comment started by explaining I rank library behind the other power, so we definitely agree on that part.
I was simply trying to point out that I think describing library as "do nothing" is strange when it is a land that even enters untapped. Sure, a Wastes isn't great, but it is very, very far from a dead draw, which is what I associate with the term "do nothing". The whole point is that the opportunity cost of including library in your deck is so miniscule, and then when you do get it in the opening hand your chances of winning increase very dramatically. I think the same can be said for the moxen, they are great because they are insane in the early game and has close to no opportunity cost. When drawn late, a Mox is rarely much to write home about.
So to summarize my own thoughts on the matter. Yes, library is worse than the other power. No, it isn't a "do nothing card" unless you get in at the start of the game.
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Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I think you misunderstood what he was saying. He said something like "oh, a Library, I'll side in wasteland for game 3 but I don't think we're going to game 3."
He says this because he has the splinter twin combo in hand and a lot of interaction, not because he thinks library is bad. In fact, he's saying library is good and he'll side against it if it goes to game 3. And again, a card can be both overrated AND good.
And to be fair, he doesn't really lose to library. He loses to never drawing a 4th land, and then loses to twin combo in game 3.
Oh note here, at 3:00 he first picks remand over library. Seems crazy to me, but LSV plays a LOT of modo cube (and wins a lot), and I never do, so maybe that's defendable in this format.
At 1:36, he does first pick library FWIW and explains why he doesn't think it's good. Again, I dunno if I agree with his assessment, but it might be true in the modo cube as I never play it.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Another thing that hurt Library in the MTGO cube, is that in some of the more recent versions, the cube was less about grinding out a match, and more about turn 1 Tinkers and turn 2 Channels. Library didn't really fit into that playstyle. The last version of the MTGO cube I feel took steps to fix some issues that led to that, and was one of the better iterations of the Vintage cube that have been featured on MTGO.
Library definitely got better when the Draw 7 + Leovold/Narset Archetype was introduced. If you have ways to consistently turn Library back on, it has more games where it can be relevant.
Another thing I think worth saying, is Library is a difficult card to play. I think sometimes players get stuck on the Library plan, when it would be better for them to say "Library has drawn enough cards this game, and I should start double-spelling." It can be skill-testing to known when to stay on the Library plan and when to start emptying your hand. This can lead players to feel Library underperforming.
Library is currently criminally underrated by the MTGO community. It's not rare to see it wheel during the draft portion. As Breathe1234 mentioned, it has a pretty high floor of being a land that taps for mana, and an incredibly high ceiling. Library is kind of like the MDFC Zendikar lands where sometimes it's worse than a basic land, but sometimes it wins the game. Besides mono red, I think any deck should be able to find a way to maindeck Library and it should play well.
[180 classic cube]
Isn't Sol Ring the 1st piece of power, crypt is the 10th, and twister is the "well it's been real but see you later" piece of power?
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I know he didn't it mention it there, but he said so earlier in that recording (i.e. saying remand is better than library which is just lol).
And yes, he did lose to Library. Certainly it didn't help not drawing enough lands, but I still believe that if the opponent didnt have library, then LSV would still have a chance winning that game.
It's on par with Strip Mine.
It's much better than Remand but I think it is worse than Fractured Identity, Oko, Thief of Crowns or Mana Vault for example.
The best way to keep Library in check is to make sure red and white (and black) aggro is competitive ... avoid overemphasizing combo and storm like the MTGO cube and then good aggressive decks will be able to run over durdly library decks and keep them in check.
LSV used to rate it as the 5th best vintage cube card (https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/mtg/channelmagic-articles/mastering-cube-draft-part-1/) and I think he realized that was wrong and reacted by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction.
I also agree that LSV is way too down on Mind Twist, which is think is also a top 30 card comparable to Libary in power and just slightly worse because it doesn't slot into as many decks and is thus a marginally worse P1P1
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
Cheers,
rant
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Agreed. Ridiculous ceiling, decent floor, zero opportunity cost, archetype / color agnostic. Zero risk, high reward card. Can never go wrong with picking / playing Library of Alexandria.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
It feels slightly less egregious than Sol Ring because its power is on a different axis than most of the actual Power 9, but only slightly.
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I did this until last year. We still have Time Walk because we view it as similar to Balance and Channel, but Library earned the ban after being the clear #1 p1p1 in the Cube.
The slower / less high powered your cube is, the stronger Library of Alexandria becomes.
The first iteration of my unpowered cube had Time Walk in it and the first edit I made was removing it immediately. It's a way different beast than Chanel / Balance, which need to at least be built around to be played effectively. Time Walk just goes into any blue deck and it isn't too hard to re-cast / recur it.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
For me
1.recall
2.library
3.sol ring
4.lotus
5.moxes
6.time walk
I think depending on the cube it's worse than some non-power, non-sol ring, non-mana crypt mana accelerators.
Edit - I would pick recall, sol ring, every mox, black lotus, and mana crypt at least over library, probably time walk too, in any normal cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Library is in the 17th spot, well below all the moxen and below some other bomb cards.
See the attached image from the end of the youtube video below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Ys4N5GlAY
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
There is no other card creates that bad feeling. No lotus no sol ring no recall no mox first play creates that feeling.
With the artifacts I know i will have some sort of removal for those or for the threat, with recall maybe they draw bad, but man when i see recall how i will answer it with so many restricted answers?
Always speaking for the feeling saw first card /play from opponent in a duel.
That being said, these lists putting gold cards above library seem crazy, but again, I don't play MODO vintage cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I definitely place Library below plenty of the other power. But saying that none of the other absurd cards in cube are do nothing when drawn late seems flat out wrong. When drawing it turn 4+, if you are out of lands, the moxen will act as a land in many cases and so be fairly comparable to drawing Library. Even Sol Ring, which I would say is the best P1P1 tied with Recall can be pretty interchangable with a land when drawn later in the game, as you might not be in a situation where the ramp does anything for you.
This isn't true at all, it's still a land...
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Fractured Identity is that high?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Yes - bennyhillz gives a great explanation of why it is so powerful.
I'm confident LSV would pick it P1P1 over Library and I would too, as blasphemous as that may seem to many.
Being able to permanently steal their most powerful bomb in a non reversible way (unlike enchantments) while getting the enter the battlefield trigger ability as well is incredibly backbreaking for only 5 mana.
I would say you win about 80-90% of the games you resolve a Fractured Identity, and it's one of the best topdecks in the game.
Jam a couple ways to tutor it and you can swing the game in an almost irreversible fashion at any point.
360 card powered Chicago cube:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/e7r
2020 Numerical Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/817969-2020-numerical-cube-power-rankings
2018 CubeTutor Power Rankings:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/803301-cubetutor-power-rankings-2018-by-color-and-cmc
It's essentially nothing, as it doesn't ramp or fix you at all. It's worse than a basic there. Whereas the other backbreaking turn1 cards (crypt, ring, mox, lotus) still ramp you or let you do 2-spell turns, and recall and timewalk are great at any point during the game.
I have very limited experience with powered cube (probably ~10 drafts), so I could be wildly off here, but it makes perfect sense to me that Library is among the best of those cards in your starting hand and absolutely the worst if you draw it later.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Except the number of times where you have 5 cards in hand and 0 lands is substantially lower than the number of times where you just have 5 cards in hand. In a LOT of decks without card draw, library with 5 cards in hand will only ever be a colorless land cause you can't take 2 turns off. Moxes can still fix and ramp, and sol ring and mana crypt both can still ramp and let you cast stuff 2 turns early or do multi-spell turns. Library doesn't. Library will be nothing but a bad land in a whole lot of decks if you don't draw it till turn 3-4.
It's still a bonkers magic card, don't get me wrong. But it's not enough better on turn 1 than being 1-2 mana ahead for the rest of the game that it makes up for all the games where it's just a colorless land, and recall is great no matter when you draw it while time walk is good (explore) to game winning whenever you draw it. Yes, every piece of power has a portion in the game where they "do nothing" except recall and time walk. The portion for library is substantially larger.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I think we are talking slightly past each other here. My comment started by explaining I rank library behind the other power, so we definitely agree on that part.
I was simply trying to point out that I think describing library as "do nothing" is strange when it is a land that even enters untapped. Sure, a Wastes isn't great, but it is very, very far from a dead draw, which is what I associate with the term "do nothing". The whole point is that the opportunity cost of including library in your deck is so miniscule, and then when you do get it in the opening hand your chances of winning increase very dramatically. I think the same can be said for the moxen, they are great because they are insane in the early game and has close to no opportunity cost. When drawn late, a Mox is rarely much to write home about.
So to summarize my own thoughts on the matter. Yes, library is worse than the other power. No, it isn't a "do nothing card" unless you get in at the start of the game.