MTG Salvation

Quote from Blimpy

It really depends on the cube. I'd pick Sol Ring, Black Lotus, and Jitte over it.

Ya, I can see that. But I wouldn't.

Quote from wtwlf123

There are cards I may be more in the mood to play, and the mood to play those archetypes may strike me when I open packs. That can lead to something being picked over Library, but I don't think that's ever the "right" call, in terms of raw power level.

I mean, I don't know what your definition of 'raw power level' is being that it's subjective, but I can think of a dozen cards off the top of my head I'd snag over LoA P1P1.

Quote from kojiro

I mean, I don't know what your definition of 'raw power level' is being that it's subjective, but I can think of a dozen cards off the top of my head I'd snag over LoA P1P1.

Cool. I can't.

I'm not sure I put Sol Ring and Library in the exact same power category just because I think cheap, fast mana is way more powerful than card advantage, but both of them certainly land in the fictional "Second Power 9".

Quote from wtwlf123

Cool. I can't.

I might take Jitte depending on if I go into the draft decided to play a certain style.

I think LoA is in the top 2 cube cards; Sol Ring is the only other card in that ballpark. I might pick something over LoA if I was in the mood to play a certain archetype or if I was testing out new cards in the cube, but otherwise LoA is just about the most powerful p1p1 you can get.

Cheers,
rant

Quote from obiwan6986

I might take Jitte depending on if I go into the draft decided to play a certain style.

Oh me too. There's a lot of cards I could end up taking based on mood, what I anticipate wheeling, which playstyles the other players have a reputation of playing, and other factors. Mid-rangey good stuff decks with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt can be the best of their theater. Going hard aggro thanks to a Jitte, 'Geddon or Vortex is certainly a thing. But if I had the choice of trying to build a nut control deck with a Library in it, that's going to be the deck I think may wind up the most powerful. From a raw power standpoint, I think Library is simply the best card in the cube.

I'd pick Jitte over anything in my cube. Sol Ring is a close second, Black Lotus a close third and LoA a distant fourth.

i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it

It's existence is one of the reasons why I make sure I have some method to deal with lands in all 5 colors. (Also because I like mana denial.)

If playing Library on the draw is one of the greatest plays in cube, one of the most disheartening might be if on the very next turn your opponent Sinkholes that Library. Yeah, you get your card back, but you were so excited to see Library in your opening hand...hopefully I'll draw my Eternal Witness!

-rexx

Quote from Rexx Raul

If playing Library on the draw is one of the greatest plays in cube, one of the most disheartening might be if on the very next turn your opponent Sinkholes that Library.

that is indeed one of the most disheartening plays. the undisputed most disheartening play is dropping turn one black vise on the play against the snickering player holding library in their hand.

Oooh, good point. Must've forgotten about that one.

-rexx

Quote from wtwlf123

Cool. I can't.

Why even post this? At least attempt to provide some content.

Yes, Library is [one of] the most powerful non-committal cards in the cube. I can think of very few situations in which I'd pick Library over something like Jace 2.0, Sol Ring, Time Walk or Lotus. Regardless, debating the merits of a card that provides free, repeatable card advantage is pretty silly. This thread seems a little like making a [scd] for Lotus, and it probably should get locked.

Quote from kojiro

This thread seems a little like making a [scd] for Lotus, and it probably should get locked.

Why? There is always something to be discussed, even with undeniably great cards. Where to pick them. What decks use them best. How they affect your cube. How best to fight against them. Synergies. Why people don't run them. Etc.

Ya, why lock the thread? We're having a discussion in here. [SCD] threads don't have to be limited to cards that aren't considered staples. The OP had legit questions about the card, and they're being discussed. That's exactly what these threads are for.

Quote from Magic-Jiffen

Ancestral Recall are all nice but weaker imo.

I forgot about Ancestral, I think I'd take it over Library too, but I'd still rather have Jitte Sol Ring and Lotus over Ancestral and Library, so I guess LoA is my 5th pick overall.

Again, this is all very cube dependent. Each of these cards might be better or worse than the other huge cards depending on the type of cube you play with.

Quote from Phantizle

Why? There is always something to be discussed, even with undeniably great cards. Where to pick them. What decks use them best. How they affect your cube. How best to fight against them. Synergies. Why people don't run them. Etc.

For other cards, sure. We are talking about quite arguably the most ho-hum draft pick in the entire Magic lexicon. I get that there are going to be cards that skirt the line, but we've had multiple people say this card is the first pick and playable in every deck. What angle could someone possibly bring to the table other than they don't think it's as great as someone else? For Library there are virtually no reasonable dissenting opinions, only discussion on varying levels of greatness. The ensuing conversation is about as productive as trying to drink out of a colander.

Play it in aggro.
Play it in mid-range.
Play it in control.
Sometimes you draw it.
Sometimes you don't draw it.
Sometimes it gets Wastelanded.
Sometimes you Rishadan Port yourself for a card.
First pick this card when possible (would you like me to draw a flow chart?)

There is very little depth to a conversation regarding the merits of Library. I cannot think of a single productive line other than if someone wanted to talk about it in a variant format. I am truly trying to be objective here. Am I just nuts?

I love Library but I'd slam Jitte over it any day. I just think Library is very beatable and while it generates a lot of advantage, so does Jitte, and more so the cube is so packed with ways of generating card advantage that the extra cards from Library aren't as overpowering as they should be.

We're also seeing more aggro goodies like Rakdos Cackler and Dryad Militant, so the power of Library is slowly decreasing.

Quote from kojiro

For other cards, sure. We are talking about quite arguably the most ho-hum draft pick in the entire Magic lexicon. I get that there are going to be cards that skirt the line, but we've had multiple people say this card is the first pick and playable in every deck. What angle could someone possibly bring to the table other than they don't think it's as great as someone else? For Library there are virtually no reasonable dissenting opinions, only discussion on varying levels of greatness. The ensuing conversation is about as productive as trying to drink out of a colander.

I mostly agree with you, but I am not going to force that opinion on others. Clearly the OP, and possibly others, needed an opinion on the card, and if we have some quibbling over whether or not it is the best or fifth best card in cube, so be it. If you find the thread utterly boring and derivative, move on. Clearly at least some do not, so locking the thread would be a gross overreaction to a non problem.

if you don't like the thread, you don't have to read it or post in it. the forum is for more than just one person.

Quote from kojiro

Play it in aggro.

i wouldn't. picking library would pretty much ensure i don't play an aggro deck.

Look, I understand that on a basic level we shouldn't shoot [scd]s down, but this thread is the cube equivalent of posting a casual deck in a competitive forum. The conversation isn't particularly engaging and isn't what I come to this forum to discuss. Don't you want to hold yourselves to a little higher standard? I mean, shouldn't we have some criteria for posting these threads?

To me there's no difference between [scd]Black Lotus, [scd]Ancestral Recall, [scd]Goblin Piker, or [scd]Sorrow's Path.

If someone wants to post about a Magic card because they have questions about it or want to discuss the merits/flaws, they're allowed to. If you don't like it, don't read the thread or post in it.

Be right back, going to go make an [scd] thread for Ice Cauldron, Ashnod's Coupon, Eye of the Storm, and all the ante cards.

I like the fact that with the new SCD organization, I can ignore the discussions I don't care for. As for LoA, I think there is some merit to an SCD because the card tends to be undervalued by newer players. I also think that the discussion on how many cards (if any) one should pick over LoA is unnecessary.

Let's all be friendly

Kojiro, as long as people are having a legitimate discussion what is the problem? As soon as someone starts trolling with silly questions, clearly unplayable cards then you have a point.

Even if most of the comments so far all agree or only discuss the level of pure awesomeness of Library (Is it the best card or only the fifth best? Pretty irrelevant, it is top notch either way), so far no posts were made in bad faith.

Not everyone has the same level of Magic theoretical knowledge or cube-fu.

I think we're more or less on the same page, though it appears I just am a little more particular than the rest of the group. Sorry to derail.

You have to take into consideration that not all players can see the power level of a card right off the bat. Upheavel went at least 5-7 months unplay in my cube because no one, including me, know the card power level. I then ask on this forum about it, play it, and it was sick. So now it got play much more often. The OP in this topic ask about the same things. I don't see anything wrong with setting up these threads. When I first start playing magic, I don't even knows the power of the Mox+Lotus.