I like it as a big green thing but really any 7+ cmc big green thing is the same. Sure some are better but kinda like 5drops in draft they are interchangeable.
Tooth is good value and can also be a combo piece.
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I write about cube and run cube drafts on magic online.
You can adjust your enabler : threat : answer ratio however you like, but with too many enablers (here: ramp cards) you can run into situations where you just don't do anything relevant, or in the other extreme, where your threats depend too much on your enablers, you risk having some uncastable stuff in your hand.
Right. There's some risk and reward involved for sure. But the payoff is well worth the risk, IMO.
This card is Timmy. If your cube is supposed to be as fun as possible, i can't see you not including it. If your cube is supposed to be as powerful as possible, its pretty good, and I include it, but it isnt the best card ever, only because of cost. Supporting ramp.dec put me all in on this card.
I used to love Tooth and Nail much more than I do now. I see it as a fun build-around-me type card (ramp deck, obv).
I'm not too sold on resolving a card and winning the game though, especially when it's only nine mana, as odd as that sounds. Nine mana is really not that much for a 99% win when you resolve it.
We play it in my 720 and there are a few people that just love drafting it, so I won't cut it, but it's not for every playgroup, and I don't think I'd include it at 540 or below.
I'm not too sold on resolving a card and winning the game though, especially when it's only nine mana, as odd as that sounds. Nine mana is really not that much for a 99% win when you resolve it.
It's encouragement to go "above and beyond" where it takes a lot of effort to want to do so usually. Why play Tooth and Nail when you can just aggro someone out? Only because it has a good shot of winning once you reach that threshold, of course. You need something that has at least twice the power as a Wrath of God to scale to that cost, right?
It becomes even more interesting in the draft format of cube, since it actually scales to your draft picks. Grabbing a Deranged Hermit and an Urabrask, the Hidden is much different than spitting out a Sundering Titan and a Woodfall Primus.
That having been said, I don't think Tooth and Nail is all that great as a player. It is an explosive spell but its a wobbly all-in first pick.
This card is Timmy. If your cube is supposed to be as fun as possible, i can't see you not including it. If your cube is supposed to be as powerful as possible, its pretty good, and I include it, but it isnt the best card ever, only because of cost. Supporting ramp.dec put me all in on this card.
If you have some two card creature combos, T&N can also be Johnny. But although all cubes should be as fun as possible, not everyone finds Timmyness or Johnnyness fun.
Are there any archetypes apart from super-ramp that support T&N? One of the reasons I don't play it is that it can't be reanimated, Natural Ordered, or otherwise cheated into play. If you are supporting super-ramp is this an advantage, as you are not competing with other players for the card?
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Has the thinking on this card changed any in the past 2ish years? I traded for one with the intention of trading it off to the numerous edh players around, but I'm thinking about running it, at least until I can pick up Natural Order.
Worth it or no?
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
All of the above mostly remains true. I had it in, enjoyed it, and have removed it since. I had actually been considering adding it in the past few days because I've added support for super ramp (Channel, Oracle of Mul Daya, etc.).
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I would offer that as much as I cast this at 9 I find myself casting it at 7 dropping a fatty and a smaller creature. Not necessarily game winning but not bad bargain mana wise considering the potential upside. That said I play it at 720, and its is purely a luxury of that size. I wouldn't play it at 540 or smaller.
I still run it in my 540ish, especially now that I've moved into a ramp package with green. Card is still sweet and fun, and something that is overlooked is that it replaces itself if you have a fatty in hand that you want to put into play.
I love it, and it would take a very sick enabler to cause me to cut it. Whenever I'm playing the "ramp to the biggest fatties I can find" archetype, there are few cards I want more. I think of it like Fires of Yavimaya; an enabler that isn't technically necessary in its own archetype, but one of the best cards for you if you are.
Of course, if the biggest creature you run in cube is a Sundering Titan, it's not the card for you, but hardcasting utterly monstrous creatures has always been one of the biggest pleasures of cube for my playgroup and me.
That's why it was at the end of my comment and not a major point. My point was more that drawing a fatty doesn't reduce the power of this card, and not OMG I'M DRAWING CARDS...but you are effectively drawing 2 cards on top of putting 2 giant things in play (usually at a 5+ mana discount). This card is fun, and casting it for 7 mana (to put 12+ mana into play) isn't super rare, either.
Tooth and Nail can be much better than simply casting a fatty. Just yesterday, I died to a sixth turn entwined Tooth and Nail for Terastodon + Maelstrom Wanderer. That was 25 power attacking me right away!
Still, I don't want to use a slot in my own cube for that card, since it goes into even fewer decks than the actual fatties that I run. While it can only be hardcast, those can at least be used with cheaty effects (mostly reanimation).
Can I get some feedback on this card now that it's 4 years from the last post? Many of the older posts have said something how paying 9 mana is far too much, but I see Tooth and Nail in many 450+ cubes. What happened and why the change of mind? Better targets like Eldrazis? Personally, I've never been a fan of this card because I'm not a fan of super ramp decks, but it's on the cusp of being removed for me at 450. I'm interested in hearing your takes on it. Does it play better in a powered environment?
This last post of mine from 2014 still rings true for this card, IMHO:
If you play a super-ramp package (Eldrazi, Show & Tell, etc) it's a fine card to include. Otherwise, it simply costs too much mana.
If you play decks that are geared to hardcast 8+cc cards, T&N is still a bomb. But in a generic green deck (with maybe two 6's and a 7-drop), it's too expensive.
I love Tooth and Nail, but I have to agree with wtwlf here. It's super popular here in my group, but that's because my group loves that fatty ramp deck. If your group isn't a fan of that deck or if it just doesn't show up much in your drafts, then Tooth and Nail might not be for you and that slot might be better filled with any other good 5-6cc green beater.
I found Tooth and Nail to be fairly decent storm win con - I wouldn't recommend if you're not running storm in your cube.
On the other hand, I've found the most successful hyper ramp decks as Eureka/ Channel/ Sneak attack decks in a mana dork ramp shell that resorts to hard casting 8-10 drops as a backup plan.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think someone had to make this SCD. Unnecessary or still pretty strong?
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Both. But it sure is a lot of fun. If you're into that sort of thing.
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I'm only adding this in at 500 because I'm adding in big ramp.
Tooth is good value and can also be a combo piece.
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In decks that can cast 9 mana spells, it doesn't take 6 turns longer to reach that level of mana.
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Right. There's some risk and reward involved for sure. But the payoff is well worth the risk, IMO.
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I'm not too sold on resolving a card and winning the game though, especially when it's only nine mana, as odd as that sounds. Nine mana is really not that much for a 99% win when you resolve it.
We play it in my 720 and there are a few people that just love drafting it, so I won't cut it, but it's not for every playgroup, and I don't think I'd include it at 540 or below.
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It's encouragement to go "above and beyond" where it takes a lot of effort to want to do so usually. Why play Tooth and Nail when you can just aggro someone out? Only because it has a good shot of winning once you reach that threshold, of course. You need something that has at least twice the power as a Wrath of God to scale to that cost, right?
It becomes even more interesting in the draft format of cube, since it actually scales to your draft picks. Grabbing a Deranged Hermit and an Urabrask, the Hidden is much different than spitting out a Sundering Titan and a Woodfall Primus.
That having been said, I don't think Tooth and Nail is all that great as a player. It is an explosive spell but its a wobbly all-in first pick.
If you have some two card creature combos, T&N can also be Johnny. But although all cubes should be as fun as possible, not everyone finds Timmyness or Johnnyness fun.
Are there any archetypes apart from super-ramp that support T&N? One of the reasons I don't play it is that it can't be reanimated, Natural Ordered, or otherwise cheated into play. If you are supporting super-ramp is this an advantage, as you are not competing with other players for the card?
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Worth it or no?
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I'll add it to my list of "Cards to run if I could afford the cube I want to have."
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
-AA
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Of course, if the biggest creature you run in cube is a Sundering Titan, it's not the card for you, but hardcasting utterly monstrous creatures has always been one of the biggest pleasures of cube for my playgroup and me.
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I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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Still, I don't want to use a slot in my own cube for that card, since it goes into even fewer decks than the actual fatties that I run. While it can only be hardcast, those can at least be used with cheaty effects (mostly reanimation).
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
If you play decks that are geared to hardcast 8+cc cards, T&N is still a bomb. But in a generic green deck (with maybe two 6's and a 7-drop), it's too expensive.
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On the other hand, I've found the most successful hyper ramp decks as Eureka/ Channel/ Sneak attack decks in a mana dork ramp shell that resorts to hard casting 8-10 drops as a backup plan.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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