That's the thing though. Mono Red Aggro is often considered one of the most effective strategies in Cube. Does it really need more tools (considering that most people put the Shrine in the colorless section)?
I highly doubt that this card will push red aggro over the edge.
Plus, denying archetypes tools is no way to control them, and sets a bad precedent for cube. Archetypes will balance out over time, because the more successful ones will become coveted, drafted by more people, and diluted in power level. If red aggro has won 6 of the last 7 times you've played, then why aren't you drafting red aggo. Beyond that, it's more fun to add cards that hurt the archetype, like quality defensive creatures and life gainers.
As long as half the red cards in your deck are red, this deals an average of 6.5 in a fast RX deck (turn 6 kill), but only 6 in a slightly slower build (turn 8 kill), although the number of games where you deal 5 or less is significantly higher in the faster deck.
Is this asuming playing it on curve? I am still doubtfull about this being better than another creature or an x-spell. It loses a lot of value when drawn too late, especially compared normal burn and particularly x-spells.
But Jinxed Choker is working out very well for us. Maybe this is a similar card where my card-judging skills are tested.
Is this asuming playing it one curve? I am still doubtfull about this being better than another creature or an x-spell. It loses a lot of value when drawn too late, especially compared normal burn and particularly x-spells.
It is a great turn two play when you don't have a 2-drop creature in hand. And even if you have such a creature, it depends on how good that creature is. In only two drafts with Shrine, I have seen a second turn Shrine shoot 10+ damage to the face multiple times. That's the equivalent of 5 successful attacks a turn two creature would have to make. And it isn't guaranteed that it will push through the opponent's defense that often. Plus, creatures are easier to kill than artifacts.
It is certainly a worse topdeck than a X-spell, but I've seen cards that are deader than Shrine when drawn late (*cough* Black Vise *cough*). Two upkeeps and a red spell and you have a Lightning Bolt. The mana shouldn't be much of a concern when you draw the Shrine late, because you won't have much else to do.
Is this asuming playing it on curve? I am still doubtfull about this being better than another creature or an x-spell. It loses a lot of value when drawn too late, especially compared normal burn and particularly x-spells.
But Jinxed Choker is working out very well for us. Maybe this is a similar card where my card-judging skills are tested.
I have never run the Choker but am still considering it. Finding artifact room is tough.
More often than not I see Shrine cast between turns 3-5. The ability to be cast on turn 2 when you don't have a good red creature to play makes it even better. Artifact destruction is definitely a concern but once Shrine gets to be a real threat is the point where you'll leave mana up to protect it. It's scary when you're facing down a "protected" shrine when you know you can't stop it & you're merely counting down the turns until you die. Shrine is great.
If you play it over a red 2 drop, you aren't really missing out on damage, since by changing the order you cast the spells, you end up with 2 additional counters on the shrine.
That is a very simple, yet great explanation why casting Shrine on turn two is good.
@Hicham:
This is assuming playing it as soon as possible. If you play it over a red 2 drop, you aren't really missing out on damage, since by changing the order you cast the spells, you end up with 2 additional counters on the shrine.
That really depends. Board development is more than just the total amount of damage that creature would contribute. You may be able to attack in situations you otherwise couldn't because of the extra body. Equipment, anthems, battle cry, etc... could also contribute to that threat outpacing the damage dealt by counters on the Shrine. And the fact that the creature gives you immediate results in terms of damage. If forces removal/answers immediately. The Shrine will build up counters, but your opponent has plenty of time to answer it. And when they do, it usually results in the Shrine's caster getting nothing from it.
Those numbers are borderline acceptable for the investment of 2+3, as I really should be doing more than 5 for that cost and the fact I missed my curve. The potential of 'going long' is always there though in the event of a stalemate.
I haven't gotten around to responding until now, but I'm glad this card is starting to gain some acceptance here. It's been fantastic for my players for over a year now, and continues to just destroy opponents on a regular basis. If you count this as a red card I would probably rank this within my top 10 or 15 in that color.
I just want to echo the fact that this card is WAY, WAY better than it looks on paper. I promise you, evaluating this card without testing it is a mistake. This is how it pans out usually:
Cast Shrine on turn 2-4, then continue playing your game as usual. Because you skipped a turn to cast shrine, you only have them down to 10 by turn 5. Crap! But wait, your shrine is now at six counters and you have a crappy red creature in hand! At this point, they can have the game 100% in control and you can cast your creature (get it countered/killed whatever), then they have two turns to kill your shrine or they're dead. Not only that, but once they kill your shrine, you still get the damage out of it. Now they're at two life and you can topdeck any burn spell to finish them off. Talk about average damage all you want, I have had plenty of games where this domes them for over ten damage. Hell, I've hit people for 17 before (in constructed though). This card's motto should be "I thought this card was bad and then I played it"
Just look at this thread: it seems that everyone who has tested it thinks its very good, and everyone who is theorizing about it thinks it is bad. Just try it!
Shrine is kinda like a Planeswalker in that a lot of games where you land a shrine become a weird mini-game of them trying to deal with it before dealing with you.
I have also played it in Grixis control decks as a finisher/bad removal spell and it was bad verus aggro, ok versus midrange, and absurd versus other control decks.
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It's pretty amazing how polarising this card is. People who think it's good seem to think it's one of the best red aggressive cards, people who think it's bad think it's terrible. In reality it's probably somewhere in the middle, because it's rather high variance but I'm pretty sure it's a cubable card.
Well, we noticed that playing it later and having the mana open to sacrifice it in response in the right way to do it.
I was sceptical, and I tested. The card is variable. From mediocre to bomb. I t often grows lethal or put your opponent into bad moves to play around....
It’s awesome for our group. Better than most generic burn spells in my opinion.
When you drop it on curve in mono red aggro, sure. Shrine of Burning Rage is pretty useless outside of that deck though, which is why I'm currently not running it. It's a powerful, but narrow effect. Most midrange decks can't utilize it, and it's useless in control / combo decks. In my experience, mono red really doesn't need Shrine of Burning Rage and I'd rather have the consistency / reliability / versatility of Incinerate effects since they're universally playable in any archetype / theater. To me, aggro in general is about two things: critical mass and consistency / reliability. Shrine is powerful, but its a very high ceiling / low floor card and in a lot of scenarios, any other burn spell will do the job just fine while still being playable in other decks.
The card's been in and out of my cube a lot. It has times where it feels amazing, and times where it's complete garbage. Right now it's out; in favor of red damage spells that are more consistent and more flexible.
I highly doubt that this card will push red aggro over the edge.
Plus, denying archetypes tools is no way to control them, and sets a bad precedent for cube. Archetypes will balance out over time, because the more successful ones will become coveted, drafted by more people, and diluted in power level. If red aggro has won 6 of the last 7 times you've played, then why aren't you drafting red aggo. Beyond that, it's more fun to add cards that hurt the archetype, like quality defensive creatures and life gainers.
It doesn't, it's a very solid card (that's best in mono-red but still very good in decks that use red as a main color.)
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...or Orzhov aggro, my personal favourite.
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Is this asuming playing it on curve? I am still doubtfull about this being better than another creature or an x-spell. It loses a lot of value when drawn too late, especially compared normal burn and particularly x-spells.
But Jinxed Choker is working out very well for us. Maybe this is a similar card where my card-judging skills are tested.
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Ah OK. I get it now. Me too
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
It is a great turn two play when you don't have a 2-drop creature in hand. And even if you have such a creature, it depends on how good that creature is. In only two drafts with Shrine, I have seen a second turn Shrine shoot 10+ damage to the face multiple times. That's the equivalent of 5 successful attacks a turn two creature would have to make. And it isn't guaranteed that it will push through the opponent's defense that often. Plus, creatures are easier to kill than artifacts.
It is certainly a worse topdeck than a X-spell, but I've seen cards that are deader than Shrine when drawn late (*cough* Black Vise *cough*). Two upkeeps and a red spell and you have a Lightning Bolt. The mana shouldn't be much of a concern when you draw the Shrine late, because you won't have much else to do.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
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I have never run the Choker but am still considering it. Finding artifact room is tough.
More often than not I see Shrine cast between turns 3-5. The ability to be cast on turn 2 when you don't have a good red creature to play makes it even better. Artifact destruction is definitely a concern but once Shrine gets to be a real threat is the point where you'll leave mana up to protect it. It's scary when you're facing down a "protected" shrine when you know you can't stop it & you're merely counting down the turns until you die. Shrine is great.
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That is a very simple, yet great explanation why casting Shrine on turn two is good.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
That really depends. Board development is more than just the total amount of damage that creature would contribute. You may be able to attack in situations you otherwise couldn't because of the extra body. Equipment, anthems, battle cry, etc... could also contribute to that threat outpacing the damage dealt by counters on the Shrine. And the fact that the creature gives you immediate results in terms of damage. If forces removal/answers immediately. The Shrine will build up counters, but your opponent has plenty of time to answer it. And when they do, it usually results in the Shrine's caster getting nothing from it.
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Oh right, thanks for clearing that up.
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Cast Shrine on turn 2-4, then continue playing your game as usual. Because you skipped a turn to cast shrine, you only have them down to 10 by turn 5. Crap! But wait, your shrine is now at six counters and you have a crappy red creature in hand! At this point, they can have the game 100% in control and you can cast your creature (get it countered/killed whatever), then they have two turns to kill your shrine or they're dead. Not only that, but once they kill your shrine, you still get the damage out of it. Now they're at two life and you can topdeck any burn spell to finish them off. Talk about average damage all you want, I have had plenty of games where this domes them for over ten damage. Hell, I've hit people for 17 before (in constructed though). This card's motto should be "I thought this card was bad and then I played it"
Just look at this thread: it seems that everyone who has tested it thinks its very good, and everyone who is theorizing about it thinks it is bad. Just try it!
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I have also played it in Grixis control decks as a finisher/bad removal spell and it was bad verus aggro, ok versus midrange, and absurd versus other control decks.
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I'd be very interested in a sceptic's testing results.
I was sceptical, and I tested. The card is variable. From mediocre to bomb. I t often grows lethal or put your opponent into bad moves to play around....
When you drop it on curve in mono red aggro, sure. Shrine of Burning Rage is pretty useless outside of that deck though, which is why I'm currently not running it. It's a powerful, but narrow effect. Most midrange decks can't utilize it, and it's useless in control / combo decks. In my experience, mono red really doesn't need Shrine of Burning Rage and I'd rather have the consistency / reliability / versatility of Incinerate effects since they're universally playable in any archetype / theater. To me, aggro in general is about two things: critical mass and consistency / reliability. Shrine is powerful, but its a very high ceiling / low floor card and in a lot of scenarios, any other burn spell will do the job just fine while still being playable in other decks.
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