I'm thinking of pulling Molten-Tail Masticore as well. It doesn't see as much play as it did before (as you've pointed out there's a lot of 4 drop options when it comes to deck construction). I think I'd rather have Ankh or Chrome Mox (I know, totally different cards, but all are wanted by creature heavy/aggro decks).
Oh man Ankh is a beating, definitely 360 material.
Oh man Ankh is a beating, definitely 360 material.
Not really the topic of this thread, but I disagree with that. The reason is similar to why I don't like Masticores very much anymore: most Cube decks have a way lower curve nowadays, so even control decks can operate at relatively low land counts; so if you don't play it early they may just choose to not play lands, and it gets potentially less damage in than a two drop creature if you drop it early.
Not really the topic of this thread, but I disagree with that. The reason is similar to why I don't like Masticores very much anymore: most Cube decks have a way lower curve nowadays, so even control decks can operate at relatively low land counts; so if you don't play it early they may just choose to not play lands, and it gets potentially less damage in than a two drop creature if you drop it early.
I'm confused. Are you are comparing the damage of a two drop played late to a different two drop played early?
Never really enjoyed Razormane. Part of the power of Masticores is being able to use their abilities when you want to.
I think regular Masticore is better depending on how aggressive your cube is; personally I think it's pretty much a sideboard card, since in some match ups it's god awful and you can't use it as reach, but it's still fine. Not my favorite.
Molten-Tail is one of the more underrated creatures, IMO. 4 damage is kind of nuts, and being able to go EOT 4 damage, upkeep 4 damage ends so many games.
I'm confused. Are you are comparing the damage of a two drop played late to a different two drop played early?
No, what I meant to say is that Ankh can deal less damage when played early than a two-drop creature played early.
@salmo: the ability to actually hit players is a major point in favor of Molten-Tail Masticore. It is the only Masticore I still consider playing at 450, but as I said, it currently sits out.
The 4cmc masticores are generally underplayed in my cube, but I haven't cut them because when they DO get played they're astoundingly often all you need to win. People have such an aversion to just pitching a card with no hope of getting use out of it. I'll pitch a card a turn to win the game any day.
Not really the topic of this thread, but I disagree with that. The reason is similar to why I don't like Masticores very much anymore: most Cube decks have a way lower curve nowadays, so even control decks can operate at relatively low land counts; so if you don't play it early they may just choose to not play lands, and it gets potentially less damage in than a two drop creature if you drop it early.
every time I drop an early ankh I just sit back and watch my opponent sweat. I watch them draw into a fetchland and ***** out loud about it. I've had many games where I drop it after black vise, and all they can do is just sit there and die, no matter what deck they're piloting. I play it with Winter orb, Tangle Wire, Pillage, Molten Rain, Avalanche Riders. Sure it's not always great against other aggro decks, but any midrange or control deck is going to struggle with an early ankh. I consider it 100% uncuttable. It's consistently better on turn 2 than a lot of creature 2 drops, and they'll never print that effect that cheaply ever again. I would encourage you to try it again if you've cut it.
Not really the topic of this thread, but I disagree with that. The reason is similar to why I don't like Masticores very much anymore: most Cube decks have a way lower curve nowadays, so even control decks can operate at relatively low land counts; so if you don't play it early they may just choose to not play lands, and it gets potentially less damage in than a two drop creature if you drop it early.
If you play it turn 2, it's almost always going to deal 6+ damage (despite blockers) before they can play a game winning spell. I'm more than comfortable with that in an aggressive deck. Do you really see a lot of non-aggro decks that are fully functional at 4-5 lands?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
There's a lot of creature removal and artifact removal, and he's really susceptible to both because you have to untap with him for value.
but cant that be said about all the masticores?
being the least mana intensive, arent you more likely to start getting value out of him earlier than the other 2 b/c you're less apt to drop either of them w/o having the extra mana available, if thats what you're saying?
& if you're dropping them as soon as you hit 4 mana, doesnt that just open them up to the very same removal that kills the 5 drop masticore; more in fact? that kind of invalidates your argument against razormane masticore
no offense but that evaluation just seems disengenuous to me
so you wouldnt run out your 4 drop masticore w/o holding up 2 mana to regen them?! i just dont think thats an accurate reflection of how those cards are actually played. by that logic, why run lodestone or any # of various artifact creatures that dont regenerate then?
i'm not arguing against any of them, molten-tail shines in a long-ish game w/ some creatures in your yard, the masticore is ok when facing down a bunch of small-ish creatures & you have the mana available to deal w/ them, but in a powered-cube you run the razormane out quickly & as Ron Popeil says, " set it & forget it". fine if they deal w/ it but if they dont he dominates the field & the game
No. The other masticores can regenerate, and cost less mana when you play them on curve. Neither of them fail the removal test all the time or cost 5 mana. Plus, if they wait until you discard a card to it to blow it up, you can regenerate them, so there are less windows that lead to card disadvantage with the 4cc ones.
The majority of the threats against the masticores doesn't come from combat damage. It comes from artifact removal, which the regeneration mitigates. The 4cc ones are not only cheaper, but more survivable and better sources of guaranteed value on your investment.
Molten-tail is the only one I run and I wouldn't currently consider cutting it. It's such a good aggro curve topper and it gives decent reach to any deck. I think that the other two, while good, are a little loose at 360 these days. Razormane is only really comparable to the other two in that it's a masticore - it fills a very different role.
If your opponent has artifact removal available, they are just going to blow them up the turn you play them...
This is the case with Razoemane as well, except you don't have the option of protecting your investment at 6 mana, you're more susceptible to card disadvantage, it cost you 5 mana instead of 4, and your opponent can blow it up if the removal is topdecked a couple of turns down the road and you can't prevent it.
Molten-Tail is particularly good. There are few things more satisfying getting opponents down to 8 in the first handful of turns, then turning those "useless" dead 1 and 2 drops into face damage 4 life at a time.
No. The other masticores can regenerate, and cost less mana when you play them on curve. Neither of them fail the removal test all the time or cost 5 mana. Plus, if they wait until you discard a card to it to blow it up, you can regenerate them, so there are less windows that lead to card disadvantage with the 4cc ones.
yes, yes, to all this in theory wtwlf but in practice it rarely plays out that way. as good as molten-tail is, he's "meh" w/o creatures in the yard & the original masticore is blaise when dealing w/ bigger threats, 6 mana to kill 3 in the rear?! razormane dominates the battlefield & is combat monster. i think that its really a case of "smoke em, if you got em". i mean realistically, how many artifact removal effects get played main deck, 2 ...? so we're just not gonna play something b/c we're afraid our opponent will have an answer for it...?! we wont play out our aggro guys b/c we dont want to get "wrathed" or we not supposed to go for it if we can turn 1 show & tell out a big fatty b/c our opponent might have a creature removal spell? if they CA you, they CA you, sometimes you just have to put the pedal to the metal man. as eidolon already stated, your opponent is probably going to deal w/ any of them the turn you play it. if they dont, the card disadvantage you keep pointing out only really happens during your 1st upkeep before your draw step, after that he starts cleaning house. any removal that they happen to top deck beyond that point is just as likely to kill off the regenerating masticores when you tap out to use their abilities.
yes, yes, to all this in theory wtwlf but in practice it rarely plays out that way.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. In theory, the bigger body and the free removal were more relevant, but in practice, the regeneration is important, splitting damage across multiple smaller bodies is important and/or the player/PW reach is important.
My cube boasted both MasticoreandMolten-Tail Masticore at varying points. In the end, it was the card disadvantage that killed them. They were generally only getting run in reanimator builds, and Molten-Tail in particular then worked in a counter-productive manner for those decks.
We ended up cutting all of the Masticores and Lodestone Golem/Juggernaut at least a year ago when the increasing quality of colored four drops led to them being outclassed at deckbuilding time constantly. It's not that we thought the Masticores were bad, it's that my decks wanted Thrun, Elspeth, Armageddon, Jace, Braids, Koth, Hellrider, Hero of Oxid Ridge, etc. MORE, and very rarely did I have a deck that wasn't trimming four drops.
They're perfectly fine, but the competition for the slots they go in is tough. I don't play a single colorless four drop anymore.
Oh man Ankh is a beating, definitely 360 material.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
I'm confused. Are you are comparing the damage of a two drop played late to a different two drop played early?
I think regular Masticore is better depending on how aggressive your cube is; personally I think it's pretty much a sideboard card, since in some match ups it's god awful and you can't use it as reach, but it's still fine. Not my favorite.
Molten-Tail is one of the more underrated creatures, IMO. 4 damage is kind of nuts, and being able to go EOT 4 damage, upkeep 4 damage ends so many games.
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@salmo: the ability to actually hit players is a major point in favor of Molten-Tail Masticore. It is the only Masticore I still consider playing at 450, but as I said, it currently sits out.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
every time I drop an early ankh I just sit back and watch my opponent sweat. I watch them draw into a fetchland and ***** out loud about it. I've had many games where I drop it after black vise, and all they can do is just sit there and die, no matter what deck they're piloting. I play it with Winter orb, Tangle Wire, Pillage, Molten Rain, Avalanche Riders. Sure it's not always great against other aggro decks, but any midrange or control deck is going to struggle with an early ankh. I consider it 100% uncuttable. It's consistently better on turn 2 than a lot of creature 2 drops, and they'll never print that effect that cheaply ever again. I would encourage you to try it again if you've cut it.
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If you play it turn 2, it's almost always going to deal 6+ damage (despite blockers) before they can play a game winning spell. I'm more than comfortable with that in an aggressive deck. Do you really see a lot of non-aggro decks that are fully functional at 4-5 lands?
but cant that be said about all the masticores?
being the least mana intensive, arent you more likely to start getting value out of him earlier than the other 2 b/c you're less apt to drop either of them w/o having the extra mana available, if thats what you're saying?
& if you're dropping them as soon as you hit 4 mana, doesnt that just open them up to the very same removal that kills the 5 drop masticore; more in fact? that kind of invalidates your argument against razormane masticore
no offense but that evaluation just seems disengenuous to me
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so you wouldnt run out your 4 drop masticore w/o holding up 2 mana to regen them?! i just dont think thats an accurate reflection of how those cards are actually played. by that logic, why run lodestone or any # of various artifact creatures that dont regenerate then?
i'm not arguing against any of them, molten-tail shines in a long-ish game w/ some creatures in your yard, the masticore is ok when facing down a bunch of small-ish creatures & you have the mana available to deal w/ them, but in a powered-cube you run the razormane out quickly & as Ron Popeil says, " set it & forget it". fine if they deal w/ it but if they dont he dominates the field & the game
No. The other masticores can regenerate, and cost less mana when you play them on curve. Neither of them fail the removal test all the time or cost 5 mana. Plus, if they wait until you discard a card to it to blow it up, you can regenerate them, so there are less windows that lead to card disadvantage with the 4cc ones.
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This is the case with Razoemane as well, except you don't have the option of protecting your investment at 6 mana, you're more susceptible to card disadvantage, it cost you 5 mana instead of 4, and your opponent can blow it up if the removal is topdecked a couple of turns down the road and you can't prevent it.
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yes, yes, to all this in theory wtwlf but in practice it rarely plays out that way. as good as molten-tail is, he's "meh" w/o creatures in the yard & the original masticore is blaise when dealing w/ bigger threats, 6 mana to kill 3 in the rear?! razormane dominates the battlefield & is combat monster. i think that its really a case of "smoke em, if you got em". i mean realistically, how many artifact removal effects get played main deck, 2 ...? so we're just not gonna play something b/c we're afraid our opponent will have an answer for it...?! we wont play out our aggro guys b/c we dont want to get "wrathed" or we not supposed to go for it if we can turn 1 show & tell out a big fatty b/c our opponent might have a creature removal spell? if they CA you, they CA you, sometimes you just have to put the pedal to the metal man. as eidolon already stated, your opponent is probably going to deal w/ any of them the turn you play it. if they dont, the card disadvantage you keep pointing out only really happens during your 1st upkeep before your draw step, after that he starts cleaning house. any removal that they happen to top deck beyond that point is just as likely to kill off the regenerating masticores when you tap out to use their abilities.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. In theory, the bigger body and the free removal were more relevant, but in practice, the regeneration is important, splitting damage across multiple smaller bodies is important and/or the player/PW reach is important.
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They're perfectly fine, but the competition for the slots they go in is tough. I don't play a single colorless four drop anymore.
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