Yes. I support blink/bounce strategies too, but I'd rather not spend the slot on Venser. I would use it for something else, and if Dovin's on the table as one of those other cards, might as well give him a spin in that slot.
I appreciate the write-up and you did a great job as always! A few thoughts/questions:
1. Incubation Druid is really interesting. I agree with the ranking, but I want it to be good and I hope cubers are wrong about its potential. +1/+1 counter synergy continues to develop in green and Simic!
2. How do you feel about Planeswalker saturation, both now and moving forward in cubing? I know this is such an open ended question and varies playgroup to playgroup. I love playing the strongest unpowered cards, but I'm finding that Planeswalkers are making up a large percent of my cube (8.1% at the moment but it feels higher) and that number seems to be growing each set.
3. I might test Cindervines. I run 3 guild cards at 360. What is your current Gruul top 5 in a vacuum in unpowered cubes? I think we can agree Bloodbraid Elf and Atarka are the top 2. I like Xenagos the Reveler a fair bit and currently run him. I don't support storm, so Manamorphose has limited application (and I think it's cheating as a Gruul card since it's often played in storm or spells matter decks which are typically Izzet, but I digress).
1. The Druid is sweet, and with a true +1/+1 counter theme, I think it can be great.
2. I think that a focus on cheap creatures, evasive creatures and flexible removal spells can keep them in check. The slower the cube tends to get, the more problematic they seem to become. Keep things lean, keep aggro good, and play lots of evasion/reach and 'walker bullets. Including all the Needle effects.
3. I like Cindervines more in unpowered because the speed doesn't matter as much, and there aren't as many cheap targets that require Grudge/Hooligan to answer immediately. My guess would be either Tattermunge if you need the Gruul aggro support, or maybe Sarkhan Vol or something. But Cindervines would make a solid testing option; I think the card's good.
I wasnt sure if it was mentioned yet, but I noticed that you mentioned 1/1 tokens could trade with x/3s in the review over Judith, the scourge Diva, but her triggered ability only works off of nontoken creatures. I dont know if maybe im just missing something obvious about it, but I thought I might bring it up :0
Otherwise, I think this is a great list, and I look forward to future "Top 20 of ~" lists!
I'll be honest. This is a pretty dissapointing set for me. I expect a lot of multicolor shake up in my 360, but it doesn't seems like that is happening.
I hope that the conversation around black aggro shifts away from "IF you support black aggro" at some point.
My issue with black aggro as a cube designer is that the cards have no overlap with any other archetypes, so you're either all in on black aggro or your deck just blows. You can splash into rakdos to get some reach and make overlap there, but you're still essentially in the same deck.
Red aggro has a similar problem, but at least there's some overlap in a lot of the cards - you can make a Boros aggro/midrange deck, UR counterburn, etc. If nobody is actively drafting black aggro, you'd regularly see all of the cards wheeling around as last picks for the sideboard chaff pile.
I made the conscious choice to cut all of my black aggro support, and push black as more of a combo enabling support colour. Plenty of disruption, discard effects to enable reanimate, and a minor stax package, though I'm iffy on that since it's still got the issue of being mostly useless outside of one archetype.
The result of my changes are that black isn't routinely the last 4 cards in every pack, and it's a more widely drafted colour. However, it's never really the primary colour of a deck, so that's the tradeoff I chose to make.
We do get overlap with Aristocrats and stuff like Black-Green Aggro, Black-blue aggresive midrange, and the occasional Pox or land destroyer. The main problem are powerfull cards like Hymn, Smallpox, Stinkhole, Necro, Pox and other double (or triple) black cards that really push you in a certain mold. The same thing goes for zombie tribal. These can end up being very narrow decks to draft.
My issue with black aggro as a cube designer is that the cards have no overlap with any other archetypes
This is true of red aggro. And white aggro. And dedicated white control cards. And dedicated black control cards. And archetype-support cards. And every other theater support card, really.
When you add in black aggro cards, you actually enable several other decks. It opens up aggressive/tempo strategies in at least 4 other color combinations. By removing it, it severely cuts down on what your drafters can do. Pigeonholing drafters into like 1-2 playable strategies in each color has a much more negative experience on the draft process than unlocking more decks for them does. The cost is relatively low, and it has a huge payoff.
I think it's important for drafters to be able to sit down before the draft starts and know they can build aggro/tempo, midrange, control or archetype-specific strategies in literally any color or combination of colors, and have a real shot at winning drafts. It keeps the format fresh, allows players to dodge the dreaded "archetype-carousel" and expands options to keep the avenues open for creative deckbuilding. I can't imagine hamstringing my drafters by removing entire theaters away from their drafting options.
Surprised to see Dovin so high. I thought he'd be somewhere around #4 or #5. I'd love to have room but at 450, I just don't. I still need to get my hands on a Teferi.
I'm somewhat disappointed in this set. Black got great additions but Simic and Gruul continue to languish.
I'm surprised there's no mention of Hydriod Krasis. Seems like one of the better simic cube options. I'd suspect it to fall somewhere between #7-#11 in this list.
I'm surprised there's no mention of Hydriod Krasis. Seems like one of the better simic cube options. I'd suspect it to fall somewhere between #7-#11 in this list.
Ya, Krasis is a good ramp target. So many of my UG ramp decks want backup targets for cheating out fatties though, that Krasis was a miss for us in testing. I can't effectively use it in my Sneak/Show/Eureka decks, I can't use it in my Oath/Stampede decks at all.
I had a big write-up all planned out for Krasis, saying that his ceiling is fantastic, but his floor as a 4-drop was unacceptably low. As a modal spell, it compared more to Quarantine Field than something like Everflowing Chalice or Walking Ballista because the lower-cmc casting options were so rough, but it was good in its 2nd-4th tiers. And as decent as it was as a 6-drop, my Simic midrange/ramp decks don't need 6+cc threats that can only be cast. I have a lot of those already. Basically, it's good as a random scalable threat in a dedicated ramp deck, but I can't use it anywhere else.
While I stick by my evaluation of the card not being necessary for this format, is so shallow and in need of fresh cards that Krasis should've been in my top-20 list. It was probably a miss of mine, and it'll likely be the card that sees the most cube play that missed my list entirely.
In fact, I'm so desperate for a spicy Simic card that I've actually added this in for some extended testing. There's not much to lose since the competition isn't particularly fierce, and despite not needing another monster that can only be cast in ramp decks, it might be good enough in the decks that can play it to make up for the lack of total strategies that can utilize it. I guess time will see if it was truly a mistake for me to leave it off the list or not.
We do get overlap with Aristocrats and stuff like Black-Green Aggro, Black-blue aggresive midrange, and the occasional Pox or land destroyer.
Yes; Aristocrats is an archetype I've really been looking at pushing lately, since it gives me that overlap so I can justify the cross-over with black aggro / pox decks to be able to support both. I'm just not sure if it's good enough for powered cube specifically, when you can be doing so much more broken stuff than saccing a few dudes for value.
This is true of red aggro. And white aggro. And dedicated white control cards. And dedicated black control cards. And archetype-support cards. And every other theater support card, really.
I mentioned red already, but it has more overlap than the black aggro cards do as there are some good red tempo cards that can still fit into counterburn or boros decks. Same with white; I don't support white weenie fully anymore either since Savannah Lions just doesn't cut it anymore. Instead, I pushed white more into midrange/control/token strategies, so Boros tokens (with battlecry/raid) is a good aggro strategy in my cube now, while still allowing overlap on the card choices.
Dedicated control cards are specific to an archetype, but still have overlap between actual decks. You can still play white control cards in a GW ramp deck, a bant deck, UW control, monowhite, etc, and similar for black. Archetype support cards, again, I've tried to make sure there's enough overlap to justify them being in the cube (e.g. looting overlaps for reanimate, loam, welder, etc).
I completely agree with you that you need to support a wide range of archetypes, and honestly I do feel like aggro needs to be pushed a bit more in my cube. But in my experience, with my playgroup, that place isn't in black. 95% of drafts would see the last 5 cards of every pack being black, because nobody wanted to play black aggro, and taking them early forced you into that deck since you couldn't pivot to anything else. If that's the state of an archetype in the cube, why waste slots that could be used for cards that will actually get drafted?
If your playgroup won't draft it, there's no reason to play the cards. But I think they should be drafting it, because I think the environment is healthier when those theaters are fully supported.
Well, true. I guess it's hard to know if the issue is with my cube design or just the playgroup; I've got more blue aggro than I used to have, so I'm going to trial adding black aggro support back and see how people draft.
By adding in black aggro, you can get new decks for Orzhov, Dimir, Rakdos and Golgari, as well as all the 3-color combinations that black touches. And it allows drafters to explore new avenues and construct new decks that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. I think it's always better to provide more tools whenever possible.
Disappointing set tbh, my cube is more like the MTGO Vintage Cube so I don't support B Aggro so not much to get excited for. I love Bedevil's artwork tho, may be an include just for that
I do have Percy as a B 4 drop, perhaps Spawn of Mayhem replaces it?
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1. Incubation Druid is really interesting. I agree with the ranking, but I want it to be good and I hope cubers are wrong about its potential. +1/+1 counter synergy continues to develop in green and Simic!
2. How do you feel about Planeswalker saturation, both now and moving forward in cubing? I know this is such an open ended question and varies playgroup to playgroup. I love playing the strongest unpowered cards, but I'm finding that Planeswalkers are making up a large percent of my cube (8.1% at the moment but it feels higher) and that number seems to be growing each set.
3. I might test Cindervines. I run 3 guild cards at 360. What is your current Gruul top 5 in a vacuum in unpowered cubes? I think we can agree Bloodbraid Elf and Atarka are the top 2. I like Xenagos the Reveler a fair bit and currently run him. I don't support storm, so Manamorphose has limited application (and I think it's cheating as a Gruul card since it's often played in storm or spells matter decks which are typically Izzet, but I digress).
1. The Druid is sweet, and with a true +1/+1 counter theme, I think it can be great.
2. I think that a focus on cheap creatures, evasive creatures and flexible removal spells can keep them in check. The slower the cube tends to get, the more problematic they seem to become. Keep things lean, keep aggro good, and play lots of evasion/reach and 'walker bullets. Including all the Needle effects.
3. I like Cindervines more in unpowered because the speed doesn't matter as much, and there aren't as many cheap targets that require Grudge/Hooligan to answer immediately. My guess would be either Tattermunge if you need the Gruul aggro support, or maybe Sarkhan Vol or something. But Cindervines would make a solid testing option; I think the card's good.
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Otherwise, I think this is a great list, and I look forward to future "Top 20 of ~" lists!
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My issue with black aggro as a cube designer is that the cards have no overlap with any other archetypes, so you're either all in on black aggro or your deck just blows. You can splash into rakdos to get some reach and make overlap there, but you're still essentially in the same deck.
Red aggro has a similar problem, but at least there's some overlap in a lot of the cards - you can make a Boros aggro/midrange deck, UR counterburn, etc. If nobody is actively drafting black aggro, you'd regularly see all of the cards wheeling around as last picks for the sideboard chaff pile.
I made the conscious choice to cut all of my black aggro support, and push black as more of a combo enabling support colour. Plenty of disruption, discard effects to enable reanimate, and a minor stax package, though I'm iffy on that since it's still got the issue of being mostly useless outside of one archetype.
The result of my changes are that black isn't routinely the last 4 cards in every pack, and it's a more widely drafted colour. However, it's never really the primary colour of a deck, so that's the tradeoff I chose to make.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
This is true of red aggro. And white aggro. And dedicated white control cards. And dedicated black control cards. And archetype-support cards. And every other theater support card, really.
When you add in black aggro cards, you actually enable several other decks. It opens up aggressive/tempo strategies in at least 4 other color combinations. By removing it, it severely cuts down on what your drafters can do. Pigeonholing drafters into like 1-2 playable strategies in each color has a much more negative experience on the draft process than unlocking more decks for them does. The cost is relatively low, and it has a huge payoff.
I think it's important for drafters to be able to sit down before the draft starts and know they can build aggro/tempo, midrange, control or archetype-specific strategies in literally any color or combination of colors, and have a real shot at winning drafts. It keeps the format fresh, allows players to dodge the dreaded "archetype-carousel" and expands options to keep the avenues open for creative deckbuilding. I can't imagine hamstringing my drafters by removing entire theaters away from their drafting options.
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Surprised to see Dovin so high. I thought he'd be somewhere around #4 or #5. I'd love to have room but at 450, I just don't. I still need to get my hands on a Teferi.
I'm somewhat disappointed in this set. Black got great additions but Simic and Gruul continue to languish.
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Ya, me too.
Ya, Krasis is a good ramp target. So many of my UG ramp decks want backup targets for cheating out fatties though, that Krasis was a miss for us in testing. I can't effectively use it in my Sneak/Show/Eureka decks, I can't use it in my Oath/Stampede decks at all.
I had a big write-up all planned out for Krasis, saying that his ceiling is fantastic, but his floor as a 4-drop was unacceptably low. As a modal spell, it compared more to Quarantine Field than something like Everflowing Chalice or Walking Ballista because the lower-cmc casting options were so rough, but it was good in its 2nd-4th tiers. And as decent as it was as a 6-drop, my Simic midrange/ramp decks don't need 6+cc threats that can only be cast. I have a lot of those already. Basically, it's good as a random scalable threat in a dedicated ramp deck, but I can't use it anywhere else.
While I stick by my evaluation of the card not being necessary for this format,
In fact, I'm so desperate for a spicy Simic card that I've actually added this in for some extended testing. There's not much to lose since the competition isn't particularly fierce, and despite not needing another monster that can only be cast in ramp decks, it might be good enough in the decks that can play it to make up for the lack of total strategies that can utilize it. I guess time will see if it was truly a mistake for me to leave it off the list or not.
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Yes; Aristocrats is an archetype I've really been looking at pushing lately, since it gives me that overlap so I can justify the cross-over with black aggro / pox decks to be able to support both. I'm just not sure if it's good enough for powered cube specifically, when you can be doing so much more broken stuff than saccing a few dudes for value.
I mentioned red already, but it has more overlap than the black aggro cards do as there are some good red tempo cards that can still fit into counterburn or boros decks. Same with white; I don't support white weenie fully anymore either since Savannah Lions just doesn't cut it anymore. Instead, I pushed white more into midrange/control/token strategies, so Boros tokens (with battlecry/raid) is a good aggro strategy in my cube now, while still allowing overlap on the card choices.
Dedicated control cards are specific to an archetype, but still have overlap between actual decks. You can still play white control cards in a GW ramp deck, a bant deck, UW control, monowhite, etc, and similar for black. Archetype support cards, again, I've tried to make sure there's enough overlap to justify them being in the cube (e.g. looting overlaps for reanimate, loam, welder, etc).
I completely agree with you that you need to support a wide range of archetypes, and honestly I do feel like aggro needs to be pushed a bit more in my cube. But in my experience, with my playgroup, that place isn't in black. 95% of drafts would see the last 5 cards of every pack being black, because nobody wanted to play black aggro, and taking them early forced you into that deck since you couldn't pivot to anything else. If that's the state of an archetype in the cube, why waste slots that could be used for cards that will actually get drafted?
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Disappointing set tbh, my cube is more like the MTGO Vintage Cube so I don't support B Aggro so not much to get excited for. I love Bedevil's artwork tho, may be an include just for that
I do have Percy as a B 4 drop, perhaps Spawn of Mayhem replaces it?
I love your analysis on a few of the card 15 to 20 which I hadnt even really considered. Thank you again
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