I want to be clear on something, the general discussion thread are normally named by regular to be “[Set name] and Cube” and are normally made by someone after the first spoiler (at least for the past couples of sets where they exist). People can discuss anything in this thread, from cards prediction, cube wants, and other general discussion. I currently mark the threshold for this as the first spoiler for the set.
Now, for the Testing & Includes thread. As some people might read in the rule, the current threshold is 50%. Now, that might be too high, So I’m setting up this thread and a poll to see what other regulars’ opinion on how much a threshold must be. This threshold will be keep and uphold for all future sets unless enough people called for a revote.
I think the problem is when it's made too early, you get 10-15 pages of theories, create a cards, and wish lists which isn't what a "testing and include thread" should be. 50% does seem excessive though, after the first week of spoilers sounds much more reasonable since more than half of the CUBABLE cards will be spoiled by then and people had enough time to potentially throw in a few new cards into their cube draft.
Basically, Altaurus list a pretty reason why the threshold exists to begin with. The testing and includes set purpose is generally to provide people with summary of the set so they don’t have to go to many different threads to begin with.
Anyhow, this is the poll. So please vote in it. This will apply to the next set after Dragon of Taksir. I might leave it on for a month or two, unless many people vote in the beginning. I make this thread because I thought it is important for regulars to have inputs on some rules that doesn't really impose other people. If two percentage number of votes are close to each other, I'll take the average of all those numbers and round it to the nearest 5.
I don't understand why this is a thing that we're actually voting on. Also, what if my vote is for less than 30%? What if I like the "10-15 pages of theories, create-a-cards, and wish lists"? The better question, I guess, is why does it matter? Maybe I'm off base here and this is something that others have a strong opinion about, but I don't get why there needs to be a threshold on any kind of thread. Will this same threshold be true for the Pauper/Peasant subforum since new set threads always pop up in there rather than in the New Card Discussion subforum (which makes sense).
My opinion on this matter is that the threshold should be whenever someone decides to make the thread.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, when did this rule even come about? Nothing in the New Card Discussion Rules mentions a threshold on this sort of thread. Where is this rule written?
I vote for 0%. There shouldn't be a threshold. As long as there are spoiled cards for a set, we should have a place where we can discuss the cards from the set we want to include in our cubes and what our testing results are. If you want to create a separate thread for what's going in after the whole set is spoiled, that's different. But the difference between 30, 45 or 60% is arbitrary. If it's not completely done being spoiled, things can change. Just let us discuss the cards we want to include in one central thread without requiring there to be a certain percentage of the set spoiled.
I don't understand why this is a thing that we're actually voting on. Also, what if my vote is for less than 30%? What if I like the "10-15 pages of theories, create-a-cards, and wish lists"? The better question, I guess, is why does it matter? Maybe I'm off base here and this is something that others have a strong opinion about, but I don't get why there needs to be a threshold on any kind of thread. Will this same threshold be true for the Pauper/Peasant subforum since new set threads always pop up in there rather than in the New Card Discussion subforum (which makes sense).
My opinion on this matter is that the threshold should be whenever someone decides to make the thread.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, when did this rule even come about? Nothing in the New Card Discussion Rules mentions a threshold on this sort of thread. Where is this rule written?
It's written in the compilation thread.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the includes and testing thread that I'm saying.
There IS always a general discussion thread where people can discuss the set as a whole and include making card and other things. That is allow with absolutely no threshold at all.
@wtfwolf. The include and testing thread, from the very first time that the thread was ever made, was said to be done as a summary of the set. So yes, it is supposedly the thread where we discuss the overview of the set. There is usually thread like worldwake in cube and theros and cube for every set. I do feel that having nothing set on when to post the testing and includes will essentially just make 2 threads that are about general discussion of the set rather than having one be general discussion and one be the overall summary of the set.
Otherwise, we can also try for 1 thread that is discuss with no threshold ever since the set is annouced and 1 thread for when 100% of the set is spoil.
However, right now, it seem like majority want no threshold. If this keep up I'll move hopefulhawkeye from archive and merge it with the other thread. I'll probably will fire the testing and include thread for all set which name is announce as well. There's the main reason why there is a general discussion thread and a summary thread all in all.
A summary thread which is 15 pages of various card creations and other things sounds like a bad idea to me. That's just a general discussion thread. And it have always been this way for every set ever since I become a member back in 2010ish.
Imo, in the beginning, Single card discussion are mostly better done in their own thread. It's the reason why the older mod make the thread for each scd to begin with.
However, cube forum belong to all of us. I will remove the rule if enough people think this rule serve no purpose. I only want the cube forum to be a nice place to discuss as it always has been.
I just don't see what the problem is. With the very first spoiler we get a "New Set and Cube!!" thread. We discuss that spoiler, what we hope to see in this set, what we think we'll actually see based on previous sets in or rumors about the current block, and other general discussion about the current set/block. Once spoiler season is upon us, this thread is often used to discuss the cards that perhaps don't deserve a thread. Maybe there's a cycle worth mentioning, a three mana counterspell, an interesting common dragon, just general discussion of the set as it unfolds. And usually, once we have several solid cube includes, someone will make a second thread for "New Set Testing and Includes" for detailing the cards you're planning on adding. In this thread we talk about what we're putting in, what we're taking out and give advice to others about their includes and cuts. I'll be honest and say that I'm not really a fan of the create-a-cards and wish lists discussion, but some people are. Why keep that from them just because some people don't want to participate until the actual spoilers are upon us? The thing I've loved most about this forum in the nearly 10 years that I've been posting here is how relaxed it is compared to other subforums on this board. Setting a threshold on when a thread can be created feels like a path to the dark side to me. We already lost quite a few really helpful and intuitive posters with the move to Curse. I'd hate to see arbitrary rules like this start to drive even more people away.
As a mostly lurker and sometimes contributor here, I'd like to echo that I agree with everyone's sentiments above. A threshold seems to be a bit draconian, everyone is pretty relaxed here and people are free to participate or not in those threads as they wish. I don't think the volume of traffic here or in the New Card Discussion subforum is unmanageable, even during the busy spoiler seasons.
Although for DTK we didn't have a "Dragons of Tarkir and Cube" thread which might explain why people decided to start up the testing and includes thread a bit earlier than usual this time around.
If someone wants to create a thread called "Post-Release DTK Summary" ...that would be different. But a "Testing and Inclusions" thread should be a place to discuss cards you want to include, cards you want to test, and testing results from your proxied up cube events. There should be no % threshold for that kind of thread, because all it does is stifle discussion.
Hmmm, look like there should just be a clear summary thread. At first, I do intend for the includes and testing to be a summary thread as it always has been in the past. I don't mind removing the threshold and just change the purpose of the thread to be what the cube forum think it should be though.
What about the post summary? Should that be a full spoiler? I feel that it should be, otherwise it would overlap with the new includes and testing thread. Or can people just make that around anytime they want as well?
I agree with OPiece. We already have a thread for general discussion. For the includes and testing results thread, my problem is that it just devolves into the same people slightly updating and spamming their list of includes over and over as the spoilers go on. That's not the intent. The intent is to provide a definitive snapshot of everyone's cubing decisions, and the thread should therefore reflect a higher level of thought and discussion as a summation of your inclusions. You can't have that level of discussion with incomplete information. As such, I would prefer 50%, or even 60% since the latter half of spoilers rarely have cubeables. Alternately, make it a time-based cutoff so we don't have to worry about being 2% under or something - after two or three weeks of spoilers, you can throw the inclusions thread up.
Sounds like you want a summary thread. I want a place to discuss which cards I want to include and how the testing is going as cards get spoiled. If that's not the "Includes and Testing Results" thread ...I don't know what is.
Sounds like you want a summary thread. I want a place to discuss which cards I want to include and how the testing is going as cards get spoiled. If that's not the "Includes and Testing Results" thread ...I don't know what is.
Well, generally, all those informations is better post in the card's own SCD thread for future discussion as well as make it easier to look up for people after the set is release.
I do feel like having includes and testing result up early will cut out cards discussion from other SCD thread which generally happen even when it's post after 50% mark, as shown in the past. It being post earlier will just pull the discussion away even earlier. But it's a rule that I really don't mind too much. I do think the information will be more organized with the threshold though. But as long as there is a new summary thread the organization problem is fix to an extent, which is what I'm proposing right now.
SCD threads are great. They're great for discussing cards individually. It's really nice, however, to be able to scroll through post after post of changes from some of the people whose opinion about our hobby I respect the most. I don't have to go through each SCD to find out what people are thinking of cutting to fit this card in or if they're even thinking of adding it at all. I don't have to visit each poster's individual cube threads to see what they're thinking of changing. It's nice to have it all right there in one convenient spot. It's also nice that, in two months, I can come back to that thread and tell everyone how awesome or how terrible the new cards have worked out.
The bottom line is that this is a public forum. It's good to have guidelines in such places to keep the tone civil and organization that helps promote discussion. Putting a threshold on when a thread can or cannot be created, however, is just ridiculous to me. Let the folks who want to post in such a thread after only a single spoiler post there and let everyone else wait until they feel like it's worth it. I just want to come here and talk to people who share my same interest. I don't understand why this is even a discussion.
I agree that a % limit is arbitrary and clunky. Maybe you guys can confirm, but it seems that part of the reason this rule was put in place was because of premature thread creation, i.e. starting a thread before spoilers even started, and then using it for wishful thinking and custom card creation, neither of which is really appropriate for discussing a new set's inclusions. So that rule would have been meant to stop that kind of thread.
There should be a compromise, because I understand that people should be free to discuss the cards however they want. Instead of using some kind of limit, I ask that you rename the type of thread to [Set Name] General Discussion, so that we can use it as an overview, and let people post as they may, whether it's to discuss overlooked cards or post their inclusions, however premature
Common sense says that you cannot have a complete list with incomplete information.
If you're just going to talk about the handful of cards currently spoiled that you want to cube, why not do it in their respective threads?
If you're going to talk about your list of inclusions, why not wait until the set is (mostly, I don't really care how much) spoiled before you do so?
Even a single day of spoilers can completely change the view on card inclusions. In this very set: Lightning Berserker being spoiled before Zurgo Bellstriker
I don't even feel like "too early" is a thing that exists when it comes to creating these threads. I honestly see no reason why we couldn't just go ahead and create a "Battle for Zendikar and Cube" thread today. I don't really see any reason to create that thread either, considering we don't have any spoilers yet. Why does it matter, though? You go to the New Card Discussion subforum, you see the Zendikar thread, there's not much to discuss, so you skip out on posting in it. Alternatively, you see the thread and you post about how badly you hope we get enemy man lands or how excited you are for the return of full art lands or new effects based around lands. If you don't want to participate in such a conversation, then don't. Why enforce an arbitrary percentage on others that might want to have this conversation?
On a different, yet slightly similar note, I'll bring up the Pauper/Peasant subforum again. There are always set threads for those specific cubes. Often the peasant thread is just us peasant guys complaining about how all the good cards are rare with lots of "nothing yet" comments. I feel like the premise should apply there as it does in the New Card subforum. The pauper/peasant guys should have to wait to create such a thread until X% of the set is spoiled. If they want to discuss the cards individually, that's what the SCDs are for.
*Obviously this suggestion is hyperbole trying to show how silly that would be and how silly it is to impose these types of rules on everyone else.
If you don't want to participate in such a conversation, then don't. Why enforce an arbitrary percentage on others that might want to have this conversation?
That's an excellent question. I would say that just because you want to have a certain conversation, doesn't automatically make it permissible in the forums. So a second question: is it relevant? Spam, off-topic, flaming, trolling, these are all things that moderators have to deal with, and for better or worse, they have to use whatever changing solution they consider best, including for gray areas like making a thread about inclusions for a set that doesn't have any or all spoilers yet. It's a very top-down system where we posters sort of have to shout up to the top in order to make changes. In a true crowdsourced system like Reddit for example, you could have posters control the quality of posts by upvoting or downvoting, and in that case, I would be happy to downvote and move on if I thought it was irrelevant to our conversation.
In hindsight, using a % system seems particularly flawed, so my suggestion would be to abandon that idea and create a new poll that's a bit more open:
1. No limit required
2. Time limit (X weeks)
3. Other (discuss in thread)
I'd agree that not all the conversations that can possibly be had are permissible in the forums. However, most of the conversations that the posters on this specific cube forum want to have are certainly permissible. A Battle for Zendikar thread made today would be completely relevant for some. It also does not qualify as spam, off-topic, flaming, or trolling. It's a thread about a future set that people who build, play, and love cube can participate in. If that's not something you want to participate in, then don't participate. I've posted in several of the new SCDs for DTK. I've also not posted in several. Some of them, for cards that I know have zero chance of making the cut, I've completely stopped reading. That's the beauty of a forum. People are having a discussion you don't want to have? You don't have to! It's great. Should we ban all the threads and discussions that you specifically don't want to have?
To put it into perspective, take a look at the specific thread that we have for Off Topic discussion. A little while ago a couple of our posters had a lengthy back and forth about football. Personally, I don't much care for football. But they were in the off topic thread, a thread that I had a hand in making happen and that I love and enjoy. I didn't want to participate in that particular conversation, though, so I didn't. That doesn't mean I can go to the mods and say, "These guys are talking about football instead of what I want to talk about. Tell them the Off Topic thread is for having nerd conversations about Game of Thrones and The Avengers." Instead they had their conversation, it ran its course, and we moved on to the next conversation. This same thing applies to a new set thread created at any point for that set. People talking about hopes and wishes for that set may not be something you want to participate in, but it's relevant to that specific set, especially from a cube builder's standpoint. So you let them have their fun, especially since they are hurting exactly zero people, and you move on to the next thread that you do want to participate in.
Now, for the Testing & Includes thread. As some people might read in the rule, the current threshold is 50%. Now, that might be too high, So I’m setting up this thread and a poll to see what other regulars’ opinion on how much a threshold must be. This threshold will be keep and uphold for all future sets unless enough people called for a revote.
Basically, Altaurus list a pretty reason why the threshold exists to begin with. The testing and includes set purpose is generally to provide people with summary of the set so they don’t have to go to many different threads to begin with.
Anyhow, this is the poll. So please vote in it. This will apply to the next set after Dragon of Taksir. I might leave it on for a month or two, unless many people vote in the beginning. I make this thread because I thought it is important for regulars to have inputs on some rules that doesn't really impose other people. If two percentage number of votes are close to each other, I'll take the average of all those numbers and round it to the nearest 5.
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My opinion on this matter is that the threshold should be whenever someone decides to make the thread.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, when did this rule even come about? Nothing in the New Card Discussion Rules mentions a threshold on this sort of thread. Where is this rule written?
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It's written in the compilation thread.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the includes and testing thread that I'm saying.
There IS always a general discussion thread where people can discuss the set as a whole and include making card and other things. That is allow with absolutely no threshold at all.
@wtfwolf. The include and testing thread, from the very first time that the thread was ever made, was said to be done as a summary of the set. So yes, it is supposedly the thread where we discuss the overview of the set. There is usually thread like worldwake in cube and theros and cube for every set. I do feel that having nothing set on when to post the testing and includes will essentially just make 2 threads that are about general discussion of the set rather than having one be general discussion and one be the overall summary of the set.
Otherwise, we can also try for 1 thread that is discuss with no threshold ever since the set is annouced and 1 thread for when 100% of the set is spoil.
However, right now, it seem like majority want no threshold. If this keep up I'll move hopefulhawkeye from archive and merge it with the other thread. I'll probably will fire the testing and include thread for all set which name is announce as well. There's the main reason why there is a general discussion thread and a summary thread all in all.
A summary thread which is 15 pages of various card creations and other things sounds like a bad idea to me. That's just a general discussion thread. And it have always been this way for every set ever since I become a member back in 2010ish.
Imo, in the beginning, Single card discussion are mostly better done in their own thread. It's the reason why the older mod make the thread for each scd to begin with.
However, cube forum belong to all of us. I will remove the rule if enough people think this rule serve no purpose. I only want the cube forum to be a nice place to discuss as it always has been.
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Although for DTK we didn't have a "Dragons of Tarkir and Cube" thread which might explain why people decided to start up the testing and includes thread a bit earlier than usual this time around.
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What about the post summary? Should that be a full spoiler? I feel that it should be, otherwise it would overlap with the new includes and testing thread. Or can people just make that around anytime they want as well?
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Well, generally, all those informations is better post in the card's own SCD thread for future discussion as well as make it easier to look up for people after the set is release.
I do feel like having includes and testing result up early will cut out cards discussion from other SCD thread which generally happen even when it's post after 50% mark, as shown in the past. It being post earlier will just pull the discussion away even earlier. But it's a rule that I really don't mind too much. I do think the information will be more organized with the threshold though. But as long as there is a new summary thread the organization problem is fix to an extent, which is what I'm proposing right now.
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The bottom line is that this is a public forum. It's good to have guidelines in such places to keep the tone civil and organization that helps promote discussion. Putting a threshold on when a thread can or cannot be created, however, is just ridiculous to me. Let the folks who want to post in such a thread after only a single spoiler post there and let everyone else wait until they feel like it's worth it. I just want to come here and talk to people who share my same interest. I don't understand why this is even a discussion.
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There should be a compromise, because I understand that people should be free to discuss the cards however they want. Instead of using some kind of limit, I ask that you rename the type of thread to [Set Name] General Discussion, so that we can use it as an overview, and let people post as they may, whether it's to discuss overlooked cards or post their inclusions, however premature
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If you're just going to talk about the handful of cards currently spoiled that you want to cube, why not do it in their respective threads?
If you're going to talk about your list of inclusions, why not wait until the set is (mostly, I don't really care how much) spoiled before you do so?
Even a single day of spoilers can completely change the view on card inclusions. In this very set: Lightning Berserker being spoiled before Zurgo Bellstriker
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On a different, yet slightly similar note, I'll bring up the Pauper/Peasant subforum again. There are always set threads for those specific cubes. Often the peasant thread is just us peasant guys complaining about how all the good cards are rare with lots of "nothing yet" comments. I feel like the premise should apply there as it does in the New Card subforum. The pauper/peasant guys should have to wait to create such a thread until X% of the set is spoiled. If they want to discuss the cards individually, that's what the SCDs are for.
*Obviously this suggestion is hyperbole trying to show how silly that would be and how silly it is to impose these types of rules on everyone else.
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That's an excellent question. I would say that just because you want to have a certain conversation, doesn't automatically make it permissible in the forums. So a second question: is it relevant? Spam, off-topic, flaming, trolling, these are all things that moderators have to deal with, and for better or worse, they have to use whatever changing solution they consider best, including for gray areas like making a thread about inclusions for a set that doesn't have any or all spoilers yet. It's a very top-down system where we posters sort of have to shout up to the top in order to make changes. In a true crowdsourced system like Reddit for example, you could have posters control the quality of posts by upvoting or downvoting, and in that case, I would be happy to downvote and move on if I thought it was irrelevant to our conversation.
In hindsight, using a % system seems particularly flawed, so my suggestion would be to abandon that idea and create a new poll that's a bit more open:
1. No limit required
2. Time limit (X weeks)
3. Other (discuss in thread)
Or something
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To put it into perspective, take a look at the specific thread that we have for Off Topic discussion. A little while ago a couple of our posters had a lengthy back and forth about football. Personally, I don't much care for football. But they were in the off topic thread, a thread that I had a hand in making happen and that I love and enjoy. I didn't want to participate in that particular conversation, though, so I didn't. That doesn't mean I can go to the mods and say, "These guys are talking about football instead of what I want to talk about. Tell them the Off Topic thread is for having nerd conversations about Game of Thrones and The Avengers." Instead they had their conversation, it ran its course, and we moved on to the next conversation. This same thing applies to a new set thread created at any point for that set. People talking about hopes and wishes for that set may not be something you want to participate in, but it's relevant to that specific set, especially from a cube builder's standpoint. So you let them have their fun, especially since they are hurting exactly zero people, and you move on to the next thread that you do want to participate in.
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