It seems like some of us are voting based on our cubes (I did), but looking at last years results it seems everyone was choosing from a hypothetical perfect powered cube (specifically looking at Ancestral Recall with all the 1st place votes in Blue). Are there guidelines for this?
It seems like some of us are voting based on our cubes (I did), but looking at last years results it seems everyone was choosing from a hypothetical perfect powered cube (specifically looking at Ancestral Recall with all the 1st place votes in Blue). Are there guidelines for this?
If you were drafting a cube, and Ancestral Recall was in the pack you were looking at, is there another blue card you'd take instead?
That's how I'm evaluating the choices. Not just my cube, but any cube draft P1P1.
The other side to that is how good it is with your own. And considering that white is stacked with more of them than any other color, I'd chalk that up in the "pro" Balance column myself.
If I already have moxen, planeswalkers or broken equipment out, I'm already winning and don't need Balance. Seems win-more to me.
If my opponent has moxen, planeswalkers or broken equipment out, Balance is very underwhelming.
And the matches I play tend to revolve around those things....
If I already have moxen, planeswalkers or broken equipment out, I'm already winning and don't need Balance. Seems win-more to me.
Not really. Even if I have a Mox and a 'Walker out, my opponent's creature army and/or full hand can be more impacting. Being able to Balance their army/hand away AND have artifacts/'walkers out may allow me to win games I could otherwise lose. Similar to sealing a victory with Armageddon. I'm ahead on the board when I cast it, but the card is amazing because it allows me to win games I could still potentially lose on future turns.
That would be one of those cube specific cards. If we're not playing for ante, I would've needed to remove it from my deck before the game started. I'm not counting cards that require a custom errata to play in a cube environment. For the same reason Chaos Orb with a custom "colorless Vindicate" errata won't be making my Top X artifact list.
The same issue arises with Un- cards. I wouldn't even know how to evaluate them, but Gifts Given shows up in last years list. On the other hand, it would be useless for Ancestral to be ranked 4th with 20 1st place votes and 10 no-votes. I can be pretty confident where to put a card like Ancestral, but while I'm sure Moat would make my top 20, I have no idea where to put it, since I've never been in the same room as the card.
The same issue arises with Un- cards. I wouldn't even know how to evaluate them, but Gifts Given shows up in last years list. On the other hand, it would be useless for Ancestral to be ranked 4th with 20 1st place votes and 10 no-votes. I can be pretty confident where to put a card like Ancestral, but while I'm sure Moat would make my top 20, I have no idea where to put it, since I've never been in the same room as the card.
so... suggestions?
Same with the votes last year, just kinda do your best to evaluate the cards, and place them in the best spot you think they'd go.
I'm pretty sure Contract From Below would be first picked over absolutely everything in like, everyone's cube were it to be available for voting...
But come on, most cubes don't play it for a reason. Un-cards, ante cards, and dexterity cards should probably be left out of the voting because most people don't play with them.
Un-cards, ante cards, and dexterity cards should probably be left out of the voting because most people don't play with them.
Seconded.
As for power cards and other expensive cards that you have no familiarity with, just do your best to rank it where you think it might go. Before I started playing with proxies, I found it helpful to take the cards that I had no experience with (like Moat) and start at the bottom of my list and compare card vs card. I can look at Moat vs Faith's Fetters and pretty easily tell which is the more powerful card and know which I'd take if faced with that decision P1P1. Just move up the list until you reach a spot where Moat no longer looks as powerful in comparison.
So you prefer day of judgment over balance? I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. You complain about 'walkers but DoJ and *** don't answer walkers. Balance is plain ridiculous; I love casting that card. You can make it so one sided in the right deck and it can be absolutely devastating upon resolution.
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Every voter is entitled to his or her own opinion, I think.
As for cards I don't actually play, if I feel that I can judge them somehow I include them, but I don't know about Moat, so I left that one off my list. It is not a card like Ancestral Recall where I can just look at it and get an idea how it plays.
Well moat is basically a perma wrath of god against the right deck, assuming they don't have enchantment removal. A. call is very easy to evaluate in terms of power level for obvious reasons.
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But this is exactly where the problem is if you want to evaluate it and never ever played with it, is it not? All colors but red and green run plenty of fliers at various mana costs, after all.
But this is exactly where the problem is if you want to evaluate it and never ever played with it, is it not? All colors but red and green run plenty of fliers at various mana costs, after all.
Yes. And green should be able to deal with Moat directly via enchantment hate while red should have reach in the form of burn to go to the dome. Basically every color should have an out to Moat, which is why it's not just auto number one. I rank it higher than Wrath/Day because it sticks around and isn't just a one shot effect. It can stall the game long enough for you to be able to take control, but it's not invulnerable to any specific colors. Occasionally you'll run into the random deck that has no outs to it, but that's poor drafting/deck building, IMO. You'll also run into the deck that's all ground pounders with only a couple answers (RG aggro for instance), and just doesn't find the answers in time. Sometimes it's a lock, usually it's not. Usually it's just a powerful enchantment that stalls the game until either it's dealt with or you take over. What more do you need to know in order to evaluate it objectively?
Yes it is. It's nice to have your cube list open in front of you when you're making your top 20 list.
I start by copy/pasting someone's list and then looking at my list to see cards I like they missed and then reordering it. Or if you've voted before starting with the previous years list and then changing it. Definitely interesting to note how much my list had changed from last time we did it.
The same issue arises with Un- cards. I wouldn't even know how to evaluate them, but Gifts Given shows up in last years list. On the other hand, it would be useless for Ancestral to be ranked 4th with 20 1st place votes and 10 no-votes. I can be pretty confident where to put a card like Ancestral, but while I'm sure Moat would make my top 20, I have no idea where to put it, since I've never been in the same room as the card.
so... suggestions?
Guess. If you misrate a card it's not a big deal, but if everyone left off cards they didn't play with we'd get screwy ratings. When we started doing this I left off Upheaval cause it wasn't obvious to me why it was so good. I listened to the hive mind, took their advice and it'll be well near the top this time. For evaluating a card you've never played before just imagine you sat down to cube and saw a pack with Unknown card X and known Card Y. If you think you'd take X over Y, rate it higher.
I consider Moat/Wrath/DoJ to all be in the same kind of category. I prefer Moat to the other two because the card is nuts in the right deck, much more than Wrath and DoJ are.
Balance is great for it's versatility in many different decks. Aggro could use it as a backup plan against control (Very few cards can do what balance does when you are topdecking, and your opponent is sitting on 5 cards in hand). Control can use it to destroy any tempo made in the early game by aggressive decks. Other decks can use it while their winning. You don't need to build a deck around balance. Sure, balance does get better the more artifacts/plainswalkers in the deck, but it would still be useful.
As for your situation, very few cards can get you out of that, probably Catastrophe.
I don't think including Uncards will tip the balance too much and would be for including them. There aren't that many but I honestly think cards like Symbol Status and Gifts Given are serious contenders for the top 20 in their colors. If no one else wants to include them there is nothing wrong with that and the few votes they do get probably won't upset the results too much. I just can't look live with myself if Symbol Status can't be on the list.
Is there any argument to include Un-cards other than the sheer powerlevel of Gifts Given? I have never play a game with Un-cards, and don't see why they should be played in the cube, they are meant to be jokes, played with out jokes, not against black bordered cards.
Ignoring thing cards and just looking at it from the idea of what the silver border means I see no reason to include them. If they liked the idea well enough to put it on a card put it on a black bordered card and that's that, I don't want to play with cards that either are based on jokes or breaking (putting opponents cards into your hand) the rules of the game.
I have no problem with people using silver bordered cards but that doesn't mean they should be should be included here, I see no reason to put them in the rankings(outside of the power-level of GG and maybe blast from the past which shouldn't impact legality of a whole swath of cards).
Is there any argument to include Un-cards other than the sheer powerlevel of Gifts Given? I have never play a game with Un-cards, and don't see why they should be played in the cube, they are meant to be jokes, played with out jokes, not against black bordered cards.
The thing is the nontheme cube should be a collection of the most powerful cards in magic. Un cards have the same backing as a normal magic card, and for the most part they fit into the rules of the game. The same goes for Portal sets, they have the same backing, but the terminology is a lot different. Naturally if there is a powerful portal/uncard, I would see no reason to exclude it just because the wording may be weird.
Ignoring thing cards and just looking at it from the idea of what the silver border means I see no reason to include them. If they liked the idea well enough to put it on a card put it on a black bordered card and that's that, I don't want to play with cards that either are based on jokes or breaking (putting opponents cards into your hand) the rules of the game.
I have no problems with others including Un cards in their vote, but I will not be including them in mine. I don't care for the look or feel of them and have no desire to play with them. Cards like Rare-B-Gone and Symbol Status just don't feel like real Magic cards to me.
It looks like you forgot #12, I have revised this by moving up 13-20 one space each.
It looks like you forgot #17, I have revised this by moving 18-20 up one vote to account for it.
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If you were drafting a cube, and Ancestral Recall was in the pack you were looking at, is there another blue card you'd take instead?
That's how I'm evaluating the choices. Not just my cube, but any cube draft P1P1.
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If I already have moxen, planeswalkers or broken equipment out, I'm already winning and don't need Balance. Seems win-more to me.
If my opponent has moxen, planeswalkers or broken equipment out, Balance is very underwhelming.
And the matches I play tend to revolve around those things....
So that means that you will rank Contract from Below as your #1 black card?
Not really. Even if I have a Mox and a 'Walker out, my opponent's creature army and/or full hand can be more impacting. Being able to Balance their army/hand away AND have artifacts/'walkers out may allow me to win games I could otherwise lose. Similar to sealing a victory with Armageddon. I'm ahead on the board when I cast it, but the card is amazing because it allows me to win games I could still potentially lose on future turns.
That would be one of those cube specific cards. If we're not playing for ante, I would've needed to remove it from my deck before the game started. I'm not counting cards that require a custom errata to play in a cube environment. For the same reason Chaos Orb with a custom "colorless Vindicate" errata won't be making my Top X artifact list.
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so... suggestions?
Same with the votes last year, just kinda do your best to evaluate the cards, and place them in the best spot you think they'd go.
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But come on, most cubes don't play it for a reason. Un-cards, ante cards, and dexterity cards should probably be left out of the voting because most people don't play with them.
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Seconded.
As for power cards and other expensive cards that you have no familiarity with, just do your best to rank it where you think it might go. Before I started playing with proxies, I found it helpful to take the cards that I had no experience with (like Moat) and start at the bottom of my list and compare card vs card. I can look at Moat vs Faith's Fetters and pretty easily tell which is the more powerful card and know which I'd take if faced with that decision P1P1. Just move up the list until you reach a spot where Moat no longer looks as powerful in comparison.
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As for cards I don't actually play, if I feel that I can judge them somehow I include them, but I don't know about Moat, so I left that one off my list. It is not a card like Ancestral Recall where I can just look at it and get an idea how it plays.
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Yes. And green should be able to deal with Moat directly via enchantment hate while red should have reach in the form of burn to go to the dome. Basically every color should have an out to Moat, which is why it's not just auto number one. I rank it higher than Wrath/Day because it sticks around and isn't just a one shot effect. It can stall the game long enough for you to be able to take control, but it's not invulnerable to any specific colors. Occasionally you'll run into the random deck that has no outs to it, but that's poor drafting/deck building, IMO. You'll also run into the deck that's all ground pounders with only a couple answers (RG aggro for instance), and just doesn't find the answers in time. Sometimes it's a lock, usually it's not. Usually it's just a powerful enchantment that stalls the game until either it's dealt with or you take over. What more do you need to know in order to evaluate it objectively?
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I start by copy/pasting someone's list and then looking at my list to see cards I like they missed and then reordering it. Or if you've voted before starting with the previous years list and then changing it. Definitely interesting to note how much my list had changed from last time we did it.
Guess. If you misrate a card it's not a big deal, but if everyone left off cards they didn't play with we'd get screwy ratings. When we started doing this I left off Upheaval cause it wasn't obvious to me why it was so good. I listened to the hive mind, took their advice and it'll be well near the top this time. For evaluating a card you've never played before just imagine you sat down to cube and saw a pack with Unknown card X and known Card Y. If you think you'd take X over Y, rate it higher.
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Contract from Below, Nissa Revane, and Vindicate Choas Orb all require erratas to play in a cube draft so that's why we wouldn't be voting on them.
Of course, it's like saying "If my opponent has Inkwell Leviathan out, Swords to Plowshares is very underwhelming"
Balance is great for it's versatility in many different decks. Aggro could use it as a backup plan against control (Very few cards can do what balance does when you are topdecking, and your opponent is sitting on 5 cards in hand). Control can use it to destroy any tempo made in the early game by aggressive decks. Other decks can use it while their winning. You don't need to build a deck around balance. Sure, balance does get better the more artifacts/plainswalkers in the deck, but it would still be useful.
As for your situation, very few cards can get you out of that, probably Catastrophe.
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Ignoring thing cards and just looking at it from the idea of what the silver border means I see no reason to include them. If they liked the idea well enough to put it on a card put it on a black bordered card and that's that, I don't want to play with cards that either are based on jokes or breaking (putting opponents cards into your hand) the rules of the game.
I have no problem with people using silver bordered cards but that doesn't mean they should be should be included here, I see no reason to put them in the rankings(outside of the power-level of GG and maybe blast from the past which shouldn't impact legality of a whole swath of cards).
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The thing is the nontheme cube should be a collection of the most powerful cards in magic. Un cards have the same backing as a normal magic card, and for the most part they fit into the rules of the game. The same goes for Portal sets, they have the same backing, but the terminology is a lot different. Naturally if there is a powerful portal/uncard, I would see no reason to exclude it just because the wording may be weird.
Praetor's Grasp, Grinning Totem, Bribery and Acquire are all very similar cards.
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This my thought on it. If it has the Magic card back and doesn't need errata to play we should include it.
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