Armageddon/Ravages is just such a nail in the coffin, it is hard for me to NOT pick it over other white cards, especially with the single white in the cost over the double white of Elspeth.
-AA
You prolly like playing aggro more than I do. Elspeth's still going to be danged good if I end up white aggro, but it's also going to be amazing if I want to go control (which is usually what I want).
I'd still rather have Elspeth over Armageddon in every deck that would want Armageddon and I'd (obviously) much rather have Elspeth in decks that don't want Armageddon. For me, it's a no-brainer to take Elspeth over any white card at any point in the draft if I'm in white.
My thinking here might be a little tainted because I rank Planeswalkers in cube Elspeth 1.0 first, Jace 2.0 second and Ajani Vengeant third, but even if you don't rank them like that, the fact that Elspeth is in the running for best planeswalker in cube speaks to her powerlevel tenfold over Geddon.
Besides, how often is Armageddon's splashability even relevant?
I disagree with your assessment of Elspeth and Armageddon in decks. There are definitely decks I could see wanting Elspeth more, but overall Geddon is the pick for me the majority of the time. I don't think Elspeth's power relative to other planeswalkers has ANY impact over comparing it to Armageddon (and I disagree with Elspeth > Jace as well).
And Armageddon's splashability is relevant quite often, actually. Any aggro/midrange deck with a decent manabase that can touch white is a PRIME candidate to splash it, since you don't need the white mana at all in your first three turns.
It is one of the best 'splashable' cards in the whole darn Cube.
KCol: Fair point, and completely reasonable why you like Elspeth more.
It's not difficult to set Balance up to be asymmetrical. At all. It's really easy, actually. And in most cases, it doesn't require build-up to be amazing, you just have to be behind. Sometimes you're in a position where your opponent just seems to have all the answers. They have more cards in hand and a better board, and you're just getting your ass handed to you. Until you resolve balance. Then it makes all your opponent's hard work for nothing.
Yea, Balance is amazing. I came to like Elspeth more and more, and with dropping Power from my cube I now also prefer Armageddon to Balance (mostly because I really enjoy forcing aggro). With Power, I think Balance would still be number one for me. If you can drop most of your hand early without actually playing more lands than your opponent and without playing any creatures, you get such an absurd amount of card advantage for 1W.
I don't run any power and Balance is still an all star card. Just last weekend it saved me when I was trying to topdeck an answer to my opponent's field of creatures on several occasions. It might be one of the best top decks considering how much it can level the playing field.
Armageddon seals the deal when your ahead.
Balance levels the field when your behind.
I would say both these cards are situational, since there are times that you would draw it and not want to cast it. But the times that you do cast it, it's probably a game winner, so their power level is undeniable. If both these cards are in your P1P1, then I guess it comes down to purely personal preference of what kind of decks you like to draft.
Land Tax looks odd to me to be so high on some people's lists tho. Why would you pick Land Tax P1P1? What kind of deck are you trying to draft? What kind of decks does Land Tax excel in?
Decks that want value. Just last weekend my opponent got nine lands off a Land Tax. He had Land Tax plus an early drop to put pressure on me. I couldn't just pass the turn & wait for him...I had to try and bring the pressure back. He also used his fetches to totally empty his deck of land. It was pretty insane.
I'm not sure if it's a P1p1 card but its power is deceptively strong.
Land Tax looks odd to me to be so high on some people's lists tho. Why would you pick Land Tax P1P1? What kind of deck are you trying to draft? What kind of decks does Land Tax excel in?
The card is usually somewhere between 3 and 9-for-1 card advantage. It's absolutely nuts.
It goes in pretty much every white deck, and excels in non-aggro white decks. It's a W contingency against getting out-resourced, and it's an amazing source of card advantage and deck thinning. It's a top 5 white card for sure, IMO.
I don't think I've ever lost a game where I played a Land Tax first turn on the draw. That's enough for me to rank it #1, though I think it's very close between Tax, Elspeth, and Gideon.
Also combos well with Bouncelands (which are good against it, too), Empyrial Armor, Kagemaro, etc.
The card is very good, usually comes down underneath countermagic, and supplies a constant stream of cards vs. mana-hungry decks. There are still white cards I pick over it, but it is pretty awesome.
I might just be mad at Balance, but it has been very underwhelming for me lately, and is worse than useless against planeswalkers. I could see myself P1P1'ing any of the top 14.
edit: Fixed to reflect hypothetical powered cube. Balance gets moved up as I would want to play it with power
[Balance] is worse than useless against planeswalkers ...
The other side to that is how good it is with your own. And considering that white is stacked with more of them than any other color, I'd chalk that up in the "pro" Balance column myself.
The thing is, when you have your own planeswalkers out, you often don't need to play balance. You might be right though, and I'll certainly keep trying to build decks around it. It seems there might be a divergence on opinion on balance between folks with unpowered and powered cubes, it would be interesting to quantify that after the rankings.
edit: my cube doesn't have catastrophe or gideon, as I don't play with proxies. When I pick these up I'll definitely be trying them out. Haven't tried cataclysm.
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You prolly like playing aggro more than I do. Elspeth's still going to be danged good if I end up white aggro, but it's also going to be amazing if I want to go control (which is usually what I want).
I disagree with your assessment of Elspeth and Armageddon in decks. There are definitely decks I could see wanting Elspeth more, but overall Geddon is the pick for me the majority of the time. I don't think Elspeth's power relative to other planeswalkers has ANY impact over comparing it to Armageddon (and I disagree with Elspeth > Jace as well).
And Armageddon's splashability is relevant quite often, actually. Any aggro/midrange deck with a decent manabase that can touch white is a PRIME candidate to splash it, since you don't need the white mana at all in your first three turns.
It is one of the best 'splashable' cards in the whole darn Cube.
KCol: Fair point, and completely reasonable why you like Elspeth more.
-AA
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2 Gideon Jura
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Balance levels the field when your behind.
I would say both these cards are situational, since there are times that you would draw it and not want to cast it. But the times that you do cast it, it's probably a game winner, so their power level is undeniable. If both these cards are in your P1P1, then I guess it comes down to purely personal preference of what kind of decks you like to draft.
Land Tax looks odd to me to be so high on some people's lists tho. Why would you pick Land Tax P1P1? What kind of deck are you trying to draft? What kind of decks does Land Tax excel in?
I'm not sure if it's a P1p1 card but its power is deceptively strong.
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The card is usually somewhere between 3 and 9-for-1 card advantage. It's absolutely nuts.
It goes in pretty much every white deck, and excels in non-aggro white decks. It's a W contingency against getting out-resourced, and it's an amazing source of card advantage and deck thinning. It's a top 5 white card for sure, IMO.
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Also combos well with Bouncelands (which are good against it, too), Empyrial Armor, Kagemaro, etc.
The card is very good, usually comes down underneath countermagic, and supplies a constant stream of cards vs. mana-hungry decks. There are still white cards I pick over it, but it is pretty awesome.
-AA
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That was actually an oversight. It should be on there.
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I figured it might be. Just wanted to bring it to your attention and/or discuss it.
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-AA
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Yes it is. It's nice to have your cube list open in front of you when you're making your top 20 list.
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2 Land Tax
3 Armageddon
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5 Day of Judgment
6 Balance
7 Moat
8 Gideon Jura
9 Elspeth Tirel
10 Stoneforge Mystic1
11 Oblivion Ring
12 Swords to Plowshares
13 Faith's Fetters
14 Reveillark
15 Mother of Runes
16 Porcelain Legionnaire
17 Ajani Goldmane
18 Baneslayer Angel
19 Hero of Bladehold
20 Catastrophe
I might just be mad at Balance, but it has been very underwhelming for me lately, and is worse than useless against planeswalkers. I could see myself P1P1'ing any of the top 14.
edit: Fixed to reflect hypothetical powered cube. Balance gets moved up as I would want to play it with power
The other side to that is how good it is with your own. And considering that white is stacked with more of them than any other color, I'd chalk that up in the "pro" Balance column myself.
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-AA
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edit: my cube doesn't have catastrophe or gideon, as I don't play with proxies. When I pick these up I'll definitely be trying them out. Haven't tried cataclysm.