I currently run 4 lands per 2 color pair, with duals, fetches and shocks being the first 3, and the fourth being whatever fits the color combination the best.
If I was going to make the 4th a member of an otherwise unrepresented cycle, I'd go with:
Manlands are good in everything. I think they're super underrated for even faster decks, and I'd probably just run all 10 of 'em in my #4 land spot. The only land that's clearly better than its respective manland in the #4 slot is Horizon Canopy, and you can always run that as a guild card (since it often gets stolen by non-WG decks).
I think it is best to break the cycle. 10 manlands are not necessary and they are not the #4 best lands in most guilds.
Huh? I do wonder, apart from Horizon Canopy, what lands you think are better than the manlands. I think that tarpit, collonade, shambling vent, raging ravine, fumarole, and needle spires are CLEARLY the #4 lands in their guild, and while quagmire and lumbering falls are meh, the other land options in those guilds are also meh as they don't super care about having access to a 4th untapped dual. The only one I could see replacing is reaches, and that's if the vast majority of rakdos decks in your cube are super aggro and it needs the blackcleave cliffs. In our cube we see enough mardu and grixis control that I think the summit is still better.
Edit - I guess if you were running the slow fetches and wanted a 3rd set of fetchable duals, but then you're so deep into lands I can't imagine not having the manlands anyway.
Huh? I do wonder, apart from Horizon Canopy, what lands you think are better than the manlands. I think that tarpit, collonade, shambling vent, raging ravine, fumarole, and needle spires are CLEARLY the #4 lands in their guild, and while quagmire and lumbering falls are meh, the other land options in those guilds are also meh as they don't super care about having access to a 4th untapped dual. The only one I could see replacing is reaches, and that's if the vast majority of rakdos decks in your cube are super aggro and it needs the blackcleave cliffs. In our cube we see enough mardu and grixis control that I think the summit is still better.
Edit - I guess if you were running the slow fetches and wanted a 3rd set of fetchable duals, but then you're so deep into lands I can't imagine not having the manlands anyway.
TL;DR - lands that ETB untapped
I think entering the battlefield tapped is a huge drawback and that drawback is magnified the more lands you play that ETBT. There is a limit on how many lands like that I'd play in a deck, especially an aggro deck. Adding 10 of them at once is not beneficial IMO.
I think the CLEAR #4 best lands that are also manlands are Colonnade, Tar Pit, Ravine and Vent. I'd play Inspiring Vantage and Battlefield Forge for sure over spires, and likely also Rugged Prairie - coming into play tapped is just terrible for this guild. In reality I also pick Clifftop Retreat above it in aggro (= almost always).
Sources that enter the battlefield untapped are actually critical in my experience in green because of mana elves so I'd play Llanowar Wastes and Blooming Marsh over Quagmire. Same with Simic.
In Izzet I can see playing Fumarole at #4, but the land is not amazing, just solid, and I think it is on par with Spirebluff Canal and Shivan Reef.
I think the ETBT clause is hugely overstated, because even in tempo-oriented decks, the free increased threat density (that's immune to sorcery removal) is arguably even more valuable. I wouldn't be willing to run like a Temple or something over Blackcleave Cliffs, but Lavaclaw Reaches is an outstanding BR aggro card. Increased threat density + fixing on a relatively low opportunity cost is great. Manlands in general are just fantastic.
I think entering the battlefield tapped is a huge drawback and that drawback is magnified the more lands you play that ETBT. There is a limit on how many lands like that I'd play in a deck, especially an aggro deck. Adding 10 of them at once is not beneficial IMO.
I think the CLEAR #4 best lands that are also manlands are Colonnade, Tar Pit, Ravine and Vent. I'd play Inspiring Vantage and Battlefield Forge for sure over spires, and likely also Rugged Prairie - coming into play tapped is just terrible for this guild. In reality I also pick Clifftop Retreat above it in aggro (= almost always).
Sources that enter the battlefield untapped are actually critical in my experience in green because of mana elves so I'd play Llanowar Wastes and Blooming Marsh over Quagmire. Same with Simic.
In Izzet I can see playing Fumarole at #4, but the land is not amazing, just solid, and I think it is on par with Spirebluff Canal and Shivan Reef.
I think you are vastly underestimating how good 4 damage on post-wrath boards is for Boros. Plus, with the incredibly high density of good aggro 1's and 2's now, it's really easy to find a spot to drop a tapped land while curving out. Yeah, it sucks when you have a Plains Needle Spires hand and only R 1's, but I think the number of games you lose to that is way lower than the number of games you win due to having a wrath and sorcery-speed-immune threat.
I think you are vastly underestimating how good 4 damage on post-wrath boards is for Boros. Plus, with the incredibly high density of good aggro 1's and 2's now, it's really easy to find a spot to drop a tapped land while curving out. Yeah, it sucks when you have a Plains Needle Spires hand and only R 1's, but I think the number of games you lose to that is way lower than the number of games you win due to having a wrath and sorcery-speed-immune threat.
TL;DR - Spires is good, but I value curving out much higher than all the functions the card offers. Manlands also suffer from bad scaling so including all 10 might be excessive.
Spires is a way to rebound after a mass removal, to attack without overextending and attacking on clear boards. There is also value in the threat of activation, especially against planeswalkers. I don't think it is a bad card at all, and I am likely to play it in probably the next decade. But I view all the things it does as nice to have, while ETB untapped dual lands are crucial and highly desirable to this aggro guild.
Mass removals are not a huge issue for the color pair - it used to be for many years but I no longer think you need to dedicate many resources to combat it. Now red has many three drops that basically require a mass removal by themselves since they go wide so well. The reach is much better, not to mention the card draw. In white we also got many cards that are naturally good against mass removals, like Selfless Spirit, Adanto Vangaurd, Adorned Pouncer, Dauntless Bodyguard and many more token makers and planeswalkers.
The more common scenario in my experience, and unfortunately the one more problematic to Boros, is facing blockers. Especially so as control decks play more and more creatures and there are more tokens than ever before. Against midrange creatures Spires usually goes one for one, in a tempo negative way (and that is if you can afford to lose the dual mana source). Tokens and utility creatures just easily block it while you essentially spend your entire turn for activating it.
Hitting your curve turns 1-3 is of paramount importance, it is not just about color screw scenarios. Any tapland has these issues. In the worse case, playing a tapland can be almost Time Walking, but for the opponent. In an archetype that often ends the game in race situation, this is very hard to swallow.
As I said the drawback is increasingly bad the more tap lands you play/draw. OTOH, the benefits have diminishing returns. You are very unlikely to activate two or more manlands at the same turn cycle. That's why playing all 10 manlands doesn't seem smart to me out of 40 duals.
I disagree with your argument that lower curve -> taplands hurt less. Quite the opposite I'd say. The shorter my game plan is the more the tempo hit is significant. Playing a suboptimal turn out of 10 is much less harmful than such a turn out of 4. I am usually planning to end the game before turn 5 - that is before activating the Spires. This is further set back by the fact that I am playing 16 or less lands in those decks, so the usual activation of Spires occurs later than usual. Specifically in red there is a trend lately of lower curves and card draw, and red tap lands play badly with that plan.
Spires is a good card, relatively interesting and broad. I myself am playing it. But I am consistently picking other dual lands over it when drafting so I believe I'd play them over Spires in a small land section.
Entering tapped IS a drawback for faster decks, but manlands are one of the few instances where the upside outweighs the potential drawback. I've won far more games with manlands activating than I've lost because they ETBT. The same can't be said of something like a Temple ...but free threat density is a huge upside for decks that win games through the red zone. There can certainly be cases where it hurts the curve, but more often than not I can play a 2nd 2-drop on T3 alongside my tapped land, or a 2nd 1-drop on T2 and play my Spires ...rarely does it consume an entire turn in a deck that's loaded with 1- and 2-cc cards. It's usually pretty easy to find a place in your curve to insert the tapped land.
I think my slower BR decks have lost more games because they topdeck Blackcleave Cliffs as land 4+ and can't cast their 4- or 5-drop on curve than times when my faster decks have lost games because Lavaclaw Reaches came into play tapped. I still think that overall the ETBT drawback is more significant for faster decks, but every land has some give and take to it. And manlands are just better options in a greater % of situations for a greater % of decks, in my experience.
I think my slower BR decks have lost more games because they topdeck Blackcleave Cliffs as land 4+ and can't cast their 4- or 5-drop on curve than times when my faster decks have lost games because Lavaclaw Reaches came into play tapped. I still think that overall the ETBT drawback is more significant for faster decks, but every land has some give and take to it. And manlands are just better options in a greater % of situations for a greater % of decks, in my experience.
Fastlands are definitely worse in slower decks, but there are other options like Sulfurous Springs, Dragonskull Summit and Graven Cairns which are good in all deck types if that is your concern.
Personally, aggro makes about 80% of the Rakdos decks here.
I like 9 creaturelands and Horizon Canopy, although I've toyed with adding Stirring Wildwood and classifying Canopy as colorless. The creaturelands are solid contributors in every deck style, although for different reasons in aggro versus control. And yes, 80% of my BR decks are aggro, but we play plenty of Grixis control, Jund or Mardu midrange, Mardu tokens, etc, where the extra threat is well worth the cipt clause.
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Simply put, they are lands that double as win conditions. For aggro, you can slap equipment to it post wrath.
For control, you can slowly whittle your opponents life or threaten an activation to stop a attack.
Of course if you want a faster cube, go for the ETB-untapped ones; but personally I find the ETB tapped drawback worth the extra threat on the table.
This begs the question, which lands. I already run the original duals, fetchs, and shocks, along with 5 utility lands.
My first thought was to add another full cycle of lands, like the man lands, or the check lands.
But then I had another thought, what if I just do the best land for each guild.
For example, azorius would want celestial colonnade, but boros would want a faster land like inspiring vantage, or clifftop retreat.
What do you think are the best lands for each guild, or would you go another way?
If I was going to make the 4th a member of an otherwise unrepresented cycle, I'd go with:
Azorius: Celestial Colonnade
Boros: Battlefield Forge
Dimir: Fetid Pools
Golgari: Temple of Malady
Gruul: Cinder Glade
Izzet: Cascade Bluffs
Orzhov: Tainted Field
Rakdos: Blackcleave Cliffs
Selesnya: Horizon Canopy
Simic: Hinterland Harbor
If you were going to go by best, I'd probably change:
Boros: Battlefield Forge -> Inspiring Vantage
Dimir: Fetid Pools -> Creeping Tar Pit
Orzhov: Tainted Field -> Temple of Silence or Shambling Vent
Gruul: Cinder Glade -> Raging Ravine (maybe?)
Simic: Hinterland Harbor -> Flooded Grove or Temple of Mystery
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Huh? I do wonder, apart from Horizon Canopy, what lands you think are better than the manlands. I think that tarpit, collonade, shambling vent, raging ravine, fumarole, and needle spires are CLEARLY the #4 lands in their guild, and while quagmire and lumbering falls are meh, the other land options in those guilds are also meh as they don't super care about having access to a 4th untapped dual. The only one I could see replacing is reaches, and that's if the vast majority of rakdos decks in your cube are super aggro and it needs the blackcleave cliffs. In our cube we see enough mardu and grixis control that I think the summit is still better.
Edit - I guess if you were running the slow fetches and wanted a 3rd set of fetchable duals, but then you're so deep into lands I can't imagine not having the manlands anyway.
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TL;DR - lands that ETB untapped
I think entering the battlefield tapped is a huge drawback and that drawback is magnified the more lands you play that ETBT. There is a limit on how many lands like that I'd play in a deck, especially an aggro deck. Adding 10 of them at once is not beneficial IMO.
I think the CLEAR #4 best lands that are also manlands are Colonnade, Tar Pit, Ravine and Vent. I'd play Inspiring Vantage and Battlefield Forge for sure over spires, and likely also Rugged Prairie - coming into play tapped is just terrible for this guild. In reality I also pick Clifftop Retreat above it in aggro (= almost always).
Sources that enter the battlefield untapped are actually critical in my experience in green because of mana elves so I'd play Llanowar Wastes and Blooming Marsh over Quagmire. Same with Simic.
In Izzet I can see playing Fumarole at #4, but the land is not amazing, just solid, and I think it is on par with Spirebluff Canal and Shivan Reef.
I actually play 8 lands per guild at 720, and I've just recently cut Lavaclaw Reaches (after a decade), so I play all the following over it:
Blackcleave Cliffs, Dragonskull Summit, Sulfurous Springs, Graven Cairns - enter the battlefield untapped.
Smoldering Marsh, Canyon Slough - fetchable, very desirable for splashes
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my cube is more about 3 color decks, i like having the fixing over 10th+ pick cards
I think you are vastly underestimating how good 4 damage on post-wrath boards is for Boros. Plus, with the incredibly high density of good aggro 1's and 2's now, it's really easy to find a spot to drop a tapped land while curving out. Yeah, it sucks when you have a Plains Needle Spires hand and only R 1's, but I think the number of games you lose to that is way lower than the number of games you win due to having a wrath and sorcery-speed-immune threat.
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TL;DR - Spires is good, but I value curving out much higher than all the functions the card offers. Manlands also suffer from bad scaling so including all 10 might be excessive.
Spires is a way to rebound after a mass removal, to attack without overextending and attacking on clear boards. There is also value in the threat of activation, especially against planeswalkers. I don't think it is a bad card at all, and I am likely to play it in probably the next decade. But I view all the things it does as nice to have, while ETB untapped dual lands are crucial and highly desirable to this aggro guild.
Mass removals are not a huge issue for the color pair - it used to be for many years but I no longer think you need to dedicate many resources to combat it. Now red has many three drops that basically require a mass removal by themselves since they go wide so well. The reach is much better, not to mention the card draw. In white we also got many cards that are naturally good against mass removals, like Selfless Spirit, Adanto Vangaurd, Adorned Pouncer, Dauntless Bodyguard and many more token makers and planeswalkers.
The more common scenario in my experience, and unfortunately the one more problematic to Boros, is facing blockers. Especially so as control decks play more and more creatures and there are more tokens than ever before. Against midrange creatures Spires usually goes one for one, in a tempo negative way (and that is if you can afford to lose the dual mana source). Tokens and utility creatures just easily block it while you essentially spend your entire turn for activating it.
Hitting your curve turns 1-3 is of paramount importance, it is not just about color screw scenarios. Any tapland has these issues. In the worse case, playing a tapland can be almost Time Walking, but for the opponent. In an archetype that often ends the game in race situation, this is very hard to swallow.
As I said the drawback is increasingly bad the more tap lands you play/draw. OTOH, the benefits have diminishing returns. You are very unlikely to activate two or more manlands at the same turn cycle. That's why playing all 10 manlands doesn't seem smart to me out of 40 duals.
I disagree with your argument that lower curve -> taplands hurt less. Quite the opposite I'd say. The shorter my game plan is the more the tempo hit is significant. Playing a suboptimal turn out of 10 is much less harmful than such a turn out of 4. I am usually planning to end the game before turn 5 - that is before activating the Spires. This is further set back by the fact that I am playing 16 or less lands in those decks, so the usual activation of Spires occurs later than usual. Specifically in red there is a trend lately of lower curves and card draw, and red tap lands play badly with that plan.
Spires is a good card, relatively interesting and broad. I myself am playing it. But I am consistently picking other dual lands over it when drafting so I believe I'd play them over Spires in a small land section.
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I think my slower BR decks have lost more games because they topdeck Blackcleave Cliffs as land 4+ and can't cast their 4- or 5-drop on curve than times when my faster decks have lost games because Lavaclaw Reaches came into play tapped. I still think that overall the ETBT drawback is more significant for faster decks, but every land has some give and take to it. And manlands are just better options in a greater % of situations for a greater % of decks, in my experience.
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Fastlands are definitely worse in slower decks, but there are other options like Sulfurous Springs, Dragonskull Summit and Graven Cairns which are good in all deck types if that is your concern.
Personally, aggro makes about 80% of the Rakdos decks here.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
EDH: UGEdric
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Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Simply put, they are lands that double as win conditions. For aggro, you can slap equipment to it post wrath.
For control, you can slowly whittle your opponents life or threaten an activation to stop a attack.
Of course if you want a faster cube, go for the ETB-untapped ones; but personally I find the ETB tapped drawback worth the extra threat on the table.