Quote from Metamind »I think it is best to break the cycle. 10 manlands are not necessary and they are not the #4 best lands in most guilds.
Quote from asmallcat »
Huh? I do wonder, apart from Horizon Canopy, what lands you think are better than the manlands. I think that tarpit, collonade, shambling vent, raging ravine, fumarole, and needle spires are CLEARLY the #4 lands in their guild, and while quagmire and lumbering falls are meh, the other land options in those guilds are also meh as they don't super care about having access to a 4th untapped dual. The only one I could see replacing is reaches, and that's if the vast majority of rakdos decks in your cube are super aggro and it needs the blackcleave cliffs. In our cube we see enough mardu and grixis control that I think the summit is still better.
Edit - I guess if you were running the slow fetches and wanted a 3rd set of fetchable duals, but then you're so deep into lands I can't imagine not having the manlands anyway.
Quote from Metamind »
TL;DR - lands that ETB untapped
I think entering the battlefield tapped is a huge drawback and that drawback is magnified the more lands you play that ETBT. There is a limit on how many lands like that I'd play in a deck, especially an aggro deck. Adding 10 of them at once is not beneficial IMO.
I think the CLEAR #4 best lands that are also manlands are Colonnade, Tar Pit, Ravine and Vent. I'd play Inspiring Vantage and Battlefield Forge for sure over spires, and likely also Rugged Prairie - coming into play tapped is just terrible for this guild. In reality I also pick Clifftop Retreat above it in aggro (= almost always).
Sources that enter the battlefield untapped are actually critical in my experience in green because of mana elves so I'd play Llanowar Wastes and Blooming Marsh over Quagmire. Same with Simic.
In Izzet I can see playing Fumarole at #4, but the land is not amazing, just solid, and I think it is on par with Spirebluff Canal and Shivan Reef.
I actually play 8 lands per guild at 720, and I've just recently cut Lavaclaw Reaches (after a decade), so I play all the following over it:
Blackcleave Cliffs, Dragonskull Summit, Sulfurous Springs, Graven Cairns - enter the battlefield untapped.
Smoldering Marsh, Canyon Slough - fetchable, very desirable for splashes
Quote from asmallcat »
I think you are vastly underestimating how good 4 damage on post-wrath boards is for Boros. Plus, with the incredibly high density of good aggro 1's and 2's now, it's really easy to find a spot to drop a tapped land while curving out. Yeah, it sucks when you have a Plains Needle Spires hand and only R 1's, but I think the number of games you lose to that is way lower than the number of games you win due to having a wrath and sorcery-speed-immune threat.
Quote from wtwlf123 »I think my slower BR decks have lost more games because they topdeck Blackcleave Cliffs as land 4+ and can't cast their 4- or 5-drop on curve than times when my faster decks have lost games because Lavaclaw Reaches came into play tapped. I still think that overall the ETBT drawback is more significant for faster decks, but every land has some give and take to it. And manlands are just better options in a greater % of situations for a greater % of decks, in my experience.