It just occurred to me that it's been over 10 years now since the very first Cube was used in the Invitational in 2007. It was only about a year-and-a-half after that but I started making my own.
I think one of the most surprising things I've seen now is how solid even 720 card cubes are now. I remember starting with a 180 card cube that primarily only got drafted between me and my friend at work.
They've printed enough 2-power 1-drops that there are good ones that I don't even have to play anymore. For those playing in the 2007-2010 era, you'll remember how dire the competition was for those kinds of creatures, especially in black. I wasn't sure if I'd ever see this kind of saturation.
One of the biggest contrasts to me is to lay it all out and compare the old to new boarders. It's really interesting that there really aren't that many old border creatures left in, but still plenty of old boarder spells. Power creep is real.
They've printed enough 2-power 1-drops that there are good ones that I don't even have to play anymore. For those playing in the 2007-2010 era, you'll remember how dire the competition was for those kinds of creatures, especially in black. I wasn't sure if I'd ever see this kind of saturation.
That's a good one I remember struggling to have real aggro decks back in the day because I had at least 22 to 24 people drafting my Cube at the local game shop well let's be honest they were drafting your Cube with more cards added to account for everybody LOL but it was mid-range Jank all over the place.
Do you think we are at a point where control decks are going to suffer as much as aggro decks in the smaller Cube design?
One of the biggest contrasts to me is to lay it all out and compare the old to new boarders. It's really interesting that there really aren't that many old border creatures left in, but still plenty of old boarder spells. Power creep is real.
That is true as I'm going through this new proxy Cube that I'm making I have noticed way more new bordered cards in general not just creatures I would say but overall I still see a lot of the old fogies pop up now and then but for the most part I think it's fair to say
This ain't your Papa's Cube anymore LOL
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Calibretto and wtwlf hit on two of the biggest changes. The creatures overall have just gotten insanely good, and in particular good 2-power 1-drops have proliferated.
I'll add in that the guilds are in much better shape than they were. Every guild now has a top 3 that isn't crap. Some, like Orzhov, Golgari, and Selesnya, have gotten deep enough that you can really tailor the guild sections to what you and your group like. Some guilds are still shallow (looking at you Boros and Simic), but even those have a solid top 3. The hybrid and tribrid cards really helped this out.
One thing that hasn't changed: people complaining about Carnophage lol
The obvious change is probably planeswalkers considering they were released roughly (exactly?) ten years ago. At first you just played what you could, and now a number of cubers feel they have to restrict the amount to X per color in order to not have there be a million PWers.
If we look from cube design perspective, I think the biggest change is understanding how much of a drawback is a heavy colored mana cost. When cubes just started, it was very common to see almost half of the white two drops cost WW. Nowadays, people rightfully shy away from CC and 1CC cards in all colors. Another aspect is the amount of multicolored cards in average cubes. Back then, even though multicolored cards sucked, cubes had more cards per guild than they do today.
I've only been cubing for two years, but one thing I've noticed is just how outclassed formerly amazing cards have become. Poster child for this is Genesis, which was a great engine years ago that isn't in very many cubes anymore. Lots of these value engines have just been replaced by planeswalkers.
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I built my cube about five years ago, and it was the jankiest. Pet cards like Primalcrux and unnecessary duplicates like Overtaker were everywhere. There were four copies of Hymn to Tourach for some reason (one of each original art), and mono-black was a hell of a deck. A few years later, all of that nonsense had fallen away, and the format was much much smoother.
The thing I've constantly noticed is the need to exclude creatures that are great for no reason. Power creep is really tangible in cube, and I don't like it. Many many times over the last few years, a creature has come out, and I've said "Yuck. I don't want a creature this efficient anywhere near my cube." Wurmcoil Engine is a perfect example, even if it isn't new. The struggle is constant. On the one hand, I wanna add the Scarab God that I opened. On the other hand, jeepers with the creature-creepage.
If we look from cube design perspective, I think the biggest change is understanding how much of a drawback is a heavy colored mana cost. When cubes just started, it was very common to see almost half of the white two drops cost WW. Nowadays, people rightfully shy away from CC and 1CC cards in all colors.
This is true, but probably also related to WotC just printing better 1C and 2C cards over CC and 1CC cards. Back in the day the best white and black two drops tended to be priced at CC. Creature power creep means our options for these slots just got a lot better.
I for one am ecstatic that there is a real power cream now that I'm starting to get a little bit more time in my non-work hours I plan on taking my Cube back to my local game store and I fully intend on watching that Q get to as large as 1080 a lot of the gamers at least in my meta don't mind the power creep.
we used to run magical hacker because Turn 3 Jace bellerin nuke in your library was something crazy...
In the long run it all depends on your drafters when I'm just playing at the kitchen table I'm generally playing with some skilled individuals when I'm playing at the local game store you have a real good mix of people who hardly ever draft people who don't care about drafting but are good at Magic the Gathering and then you have people who are really good at drafting
when you get a mix of people like that you can never really count on are types coming together correctly and a lot of the times people still hate draft
I built my cube 8 years ago, and the cards keep on coming. The updates were so fast that there are cards that were out without me having played it. Thankfully now the pace has slowed.
Creature power creep is the real deal, and I think everyone agrees. The pet card Hypnotic Specter is now out in many lists, and probably in some lists only for nostalgia. I still have mine but will remove it soon for Liliana. There are approximately 25 creatures left from the pre-Modern era in my 450. Some of them I think will endure (like Fyndhorn Elves or Goblin Welder) but some of them will likely be replaced int the future (Soltari Trooper or Exalted Angel)
On the flip side, I like how some of the "old era" spells will likely never be replaced in cube... not just the power 9, but also cards like Armageddon, Balance, Mind Twist, and even the simple Lightning Bolt,Counterspell, and the MIrage Tutors. I feel happy knowing there are some cards that will definitely be staples in cube, and has great nostalgia value.
I've only been cubing for two years, but one thing I've noticed is just how outclassed formerly amazing cards have become. Poster child for this is Genesis, which was a great engine years ago that isn't in very many cubes anymore. Lots of these value engines have just been replaced by planeswalkers.
Can't help but take notice of your post. At first I was so amazed by Genesis and how "nothing can beat this card". I remember in 1 game it recovered from a full Mind Twist and eventually won. But ultimately it became too slow and mana intensive to hold up in cube. Planeswalkers are simply too powerful to pass up and Genesis is one the cards pushed out.
Look at old list sometimes. It's amazing which cards that were 100% never going to cut cube staples that rarely if ever see play now. Ravenous Baloth, Morphling, Spiritmonger, Akroma Angel of Wrath were some of the apex cards of their respective sections.
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My brother got Genesis altered because it was a stone cold staple at one point. Now I'm not sure I would run it in the largest of lists. Cube has changed a lot, you could probably have a legitimate 'binder cube' of all cards that were cut or couldn't stick around and it would probably be a fun list.
we used to run magical hacker because Turn 3 Jace bellerin nuke in your library was something crazy...
Magical Hacker is still legit AF, the more great planeswalkers that are printed the better he gets. Can't wait to ult UG Nissa on T4, only a matter of time.
My brother got Genesis altered because it was a stone cold staple at one point. Now I'm not sure I would run it in the largest of lists. Cube has changed a lot, you could probably have a legitimate 'binder cube' of all cards that were cut or couldn't stick around and it would probably be a fun list.
That's actually a sweet idea. A really good way to get use out of those cards you still like, but just can't justify anymore, even as a pet card (like Genesis, for example).
People have kicked around the idea of a tier 2 cube for quite awhile. The problem is it is incredibly hard to define what is tier one and tier two.
Yeah, I actually thought about it once before. I had a peasant cube, which morphed into peasant+, which morphed into tier 2-ish. It still had a lot of the peasant (and rare) cube staples, though, like Mother of Runes and such. The idea of a 'binder cube' sounds neat. Like, what have you dubbed good enough for the binder, but no longer good enough for the main list? I don't really ever update my binder to remove cards that will probably never come back in. It just keeps growing. I know there's a Dream Cache in there that's been there forever. Maybe this is a CubeTutor project just to see how it drafts.
People have kicked around the idea of a tier 2 cube for quite awhile. The problem is it is incredibly hard to define what is tier one and tier two.
Yeah, I actually thought about it once before. I had a peasant cube, which morphed into peasant+, which morphed into tier 2-ish. It still had a lot of the peasant (and rare) cube staples, though, like Mother of Runes and such. The idea of a 'binder cube' sounds neat. Like, what have you dubbed good enough for the binder, but no longer good enough for the main list? I don't really ever update my binder to remove cards that will probably never come back in. It just keeps growing. I know there's a Dream Cache in there that's been there forever. Maybe this is a CubeTutor project just to see how it drafts.
Yeah Pringlesman is right that setting up the lower-powered cube leads to a variety of other problems, so I like keeping it simple. The only real question I would ask because of that is: in testing was this good enough, and was it only excluded for a different reason? I imagine it would be more of a novelty than anything else at this point, but it would still be closer to cube than limited so that's a good place to start. I'm more interested in the 'what-if' involved with that than making a balanced format with all cards I don't run.
I think one of the most surprising things I've seen now is how solid even 720 card cubes are now. I remember starting with a 180 card cube that primarily only got drafted between me and my friend at work.
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That's a good one I remember struggling to have real aggro decks back in the day because I had at least 22 to 24 people drafting my Cube at the local game shop well let's be honest they were drafting your Cube with more cards added to account for everybody LOL but it was mid-range Jank all over the place.
Do you think we are at a point where control decks are going to suffer as much as aggro decks in the smaller Cube design?
That is true as I'm going through this new proxy Cube that I'm making I have noticed way more new bordered cards in general not just creatures I would say but overall I still see a lot of the old fogies pop up now and then but for the most part I think it's fair to say
This ain't your Papa's Cube anymore LOL
Sorry for the double post moderators I can't seem to find the multi quote option on mobile
I'll add in that the guilds are in much better shape than they were. Every guild now has a top 3 that isn't crap. Some, like Orzhov, Golgari, and Selesnya, have gotten deep enough that you can really tailor the guild sections to what you and your group like. Some guilds are still shallow (looking at you Boros and Simic), but even those have a solid top 3. The hybrid and tribrid cards really helped this out.
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One thing that hasn't changed: people complaining about Carnophage lol
The obvious change is probably planeswalkers considering they were released roughly (exactly?) ten years ago. At first you just played what you could, and now a number of cubers feel they have to restrict the amount to X per color in order to not have there be a million PWers.
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The thing I've constantly noticed is the need to exclude creatures that are great for no reason. Power creep is really tangible in cube, and I don't like it. Many many times over the last few years, a creature has come out, and I've said "Yuck. I don't want a creature this efficient anywhere near my cube." Wurmcoil Engine is a perfect example, even if it isn't new. The struggle is constant. On the one hand, I wanna add the Scarab God that I opened. On the other hand, jeepers with the creature-creepage.
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This is true, but probably also related to WotC just printing better 1C and 2C cards over CC and 1CC cards. Back in the day the best white and black two drops tended to be priced at CC. Creature power creep means our options for these slots just got a lot better.
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we used to run magical hacker because Turn 3 Jace bellerin nuke in your library was something crazy...
In the long run it all depends on your drafters when I'm just playing at the kitchen table I'm generally playing with some skilled individuals when I'm playing at the local game store you have a real good mix of people who hardly ever draft people who don't care about drafting but are good at Magic the Gathering and then you have people who are really good at drafting
when you get a mix of people like that you can never really count on are types coming together correctly and a lot of the times people still hate draft
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Creature power creep is the real deal, and I think everyone agrees. The pet card Hypnotic Specter is now out in many lists, and probably in some lists only for nostalgia. I still have mine but will remove it soon for Liliana. There are approximately 25 creatures left from the pre-Modern era in my 450. Some of them I think will endure (like Fyndhorn Elves or Goblin Welder) but some of them will likely be replaced int the future (Soltari Trooper or Exalted Angel)
On the flip side, I like how some of the "old era" spells will likely never be replaced in cube... not just the power 9, but also cards like Armageddon, Balance, Mind Twist, and even the simple Lightning Bolt,Counterspell, and the MIrage Tutors. I feel happy knowing there are some cards that will definitely be staples in cube, and has great nostalgia value.
Can't help but take notice of your post. At first I was so amazed by Genesis and how "nothing can beat this card". I remember in 1 game it recovered from a full Mind Twist and eventually won. But ultimately it became too slow and mana intensive to hold up in cube. Planeswalkers are simply too powerful to pass up and Genesis is one the cards pushed out.
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Magical Hacker is still legit AF, the more great planeswalkers that are printed the better he gets. Can't wait to ult UG Nissa on T4, only a matter of time.
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That's actually a sweet idea. A really good way to get use out of those cards you still like, but just can't justify anymore, even as a pet card (like Genesis, for example).
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Not really, on an individual level it's 'what's in your cube' v 'what's not in your cube'. Hence 'binder cube'.
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Yeah, I actually thought about it once before. I had a peasant cube, which morphed into peasant+, which morphed into tier 2-ish. It still had a lot of the peasant (and rare) cube staples, though, like Mother of Runes and such. The idea of a 'binder cube' sounds neat. Like, what have you dubbed good enough for the binder, but no longer good enough for the main list? I don't really ever update my binder to remove cards that will probably never come back in. It just keeps growing. I know there's a Dream Cache in there that's been there forever. Maybe this is a CubeTutor project just to see how it drafts.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Yeah Pringlesman is right that setting up the lower-powered cube leads to a variety of other problems, so I like keeping it simple. The only real question I would ask because of that is: in testing was this good enough, and was it only excluded for a different reason? I imagine it would be more of a novelty than anything else at this point, but it would still be closer to cube than limited so that's a good place to start. I'm more interested in the 'what-if' involved with that than making a balanced format with all cards I don't run.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic