Looks neat. What's informed your multicolor picks?
Trial and error
About 6 months ago I changed up my multi-color. I found that despite having the "best" multi-color card in each color pair (I one one for each) they were becoming dead picks in 4 player and didn't see the table as much even in two player (Winston/Winchester). So I decided to go all hybrid/Split cards with the idea they would see more play (and they have).
It's hard for me to comment on a general build vs. a synergistic build regarding microcubes because I've only ever played with my own 90-card-er. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that so long as the stack was designed to allow multiple synergies in multiple color combinations, the synergistic list will be more interesting than the general. I find it harder to evaluate cards for a "general" list as well. That's about all I can comment on that point.
As far as replayability and fun in my cube? It's always a fun time, that's for sure. There are certainly expected synergies and plays and notorious cards--the more you play the micro cube with a particular person, the better you both understand which cards and plays these are., which I think that forces you to scout out new strategies and reevaluate certain cards constantly. Being able to craft 10 or more coherent decks from 90 cards is pretty mind boggling.
It's hard for me to comment on a general build vs. a synergistic build regarding microcubes because I've only ever played with my own 90-card-er. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that so long as the stack was designed to allow multiple synergies in multiple color combinations, the synergistic list will be more interesting than the general. I find it harder to evaluate cards for a "general" list as well. That's about all I can comment on that point.
As far as replayability and fun in my cube? It's always a fun time, that's for sure. There are certainly expected synergies and plays and notorious cards--the more you play the micro cube with a particular person, the better you both understand which cards and plays these are., which I think that forces you to scout out new strategies and reevaluate certain cards constantly. Being able to craft 10 or more coherent decks from 90 cards is pretty mind boggling.
When you played it the first few times did you notice any undesirable characteristics in the 90?
What sort of cards have you made changes to the most? Can you talk about some of those changes if any?
With a deck size of 40 and an average of 17 lands that leaves us with using ~46 cards between both player's decks from the 90. Do you see the same 46 cards frequently? Have you noticed certain decks being constructed more frequently than others? If so, what cards have you noticed those decks center around?
I have so many questions sorry but please any poster feel free to answer these. I'm interested in taking a more focused look at this format but specifically 90 cards for two people
When you played it the first few times did you notice any undesirable characteristics in the 90?
The biggest issue going into a micro environment is balance. Because there is such limited space, there is a huge tendency to lack answers or access to answers. I don't mean black not having enchantment removal or anything so specific. I'm talking a creature or spell that simply fall well beyond the potential responses in the micro environment. That being said, if your cube is unbalanced or a specific card is OP, you find out immediately.
If I had to critique the world of microcubing from an unbiased POV, I would say that it has the tendency to become *repetitious* after a handful of drafts. You can only have so much variety in a stack of 90 cards. The saving grace, for me anyway, is that I built my microcube as an alternative to dragging a full 360 or larger cube around with me on vacations, trips, etc. and it only really sees play during those times...maybe once per 5 regular cube drafts otherwise. Another great thing about microcubes is if you feel an archetype or certain cards getting stale, it is very easy to swap out 15 cards or whatever and entirely change the feel or your pile. Whereas with a 360 cube or something, if you get sick of seeing a particular archetype or something, you'll have a harder time rejuvenating the cube because of the multitude of changes you would need to make.
What sort of cards have you made changes to the most? Can you talk about some of those changes if any?
I will say removal was the easiest to nail down. Non-creature, non-removal spells are pretty simple to choose as well, since you don't really have much room for more than 1-2 per color (just being honest here). So that leaves us with creatures and what I'll call colorless non-land cards. Creatures have to be balanced not only by available removal, but also with other creatures across the board, and potentially other non-creature spells.F More so than any other card type, the creature list has been the most fluid. A handful of drafts is all it takes to realize which creatures are too powerful or too weak. So in a sense, balancing creatures is a bit more empirical than other spells when it comes to selecting the correct ones.
As for "colorless" non-land cards, these see a lot of flux but for a different reason than creatures. Simply stated, there are more options. I think the colorless section actually provides a major amount of balance and flexibility to the cube--It gives archetypes and singular colors reach to places they may otherwise not have access and allows for deeper synergies and themes without expanding colored sections--similar to what the gamut of hybrid cards does for the colors in the entire library of Magic (to clarify, an example would be that now a deck with only mountains could be composed of red cards, colorless cards, and red-containing hybrid cards, whereas in the early days of magic that deck could have only been red or colorless.
With a deck size of 40 and an average of 17 lands that leaves us with using ~46 cards between both player's decks from the 90. Do you see the same 46 cards frequently? Have you noticed certain decks being constructed more frequently than others? If so, what cards have you noticed those decks center around?
To be quite honest, the most common decks tend to build themselves. The same 45? Not exactly, but similar 45s? All the time. What I find generally guiding micro drafts is the first 1 or 2 cards selected from pack 1. You're likely to run into a bomby card in each pack and that color is what you're going to start eyeing up for your deck. You have to make your decisions quickly to get the cards you want when you only draft with one other person. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but it is one of the inherent traits of such a small card pool. Then again, you might decide the obvious P1P1 choice isn't as fun or enticing as the P1P1 Crystal Shard for the bounce.dec archetype you want to try for.
I have so many questions sorry but please any poster feel free to answer these. I'm interested in taking a more focused look at this format but specifically 90 cards for two people I'm glad people are taking to the idea. Happy to answer any questions!
...it is very easy to swap out 15 cards or whatever and entirely change the feel or your pile. Whereas with a 360 cube or something, if you get sick of seeing a particular archetype or something, you'll have a harder time rejuvenating the cube because of the multitude of changes you would need to make.
This is a great point and is a unique advantage to this style of MicroCube (What I refer to as a Stack); Smaller changes make bigger impacts.
I think the colorless section actually provides a major amount of balance and flexibility to the cube--It gives archetypes and singular colors reach to places they may otherwise not have access and allows for deeper synergies and themes without expanding colored sections
Oh absolutely! There are plenty of neat colorless doodads Kaladesh provides. I really appreciate the amount of flexibility Cultivator's Caravan brings to our Stack. It is an improvement over something like Chromatic Lantern in a ShortStack of 90. Cultivator's Caravan goes further for us because with the general build we are going with we've tried to use mostly Mana Costs with only one color symbol. This sort of color minimizing improves consistency across more games in terms of fun and ability to try a wider range of deck types.
. . .
EDIT: I might mention that we build our ShortStax to be drafted using Winston or Winchester style picking.
Questions and Thoughts about 6jerfz ShortStack
Also, 6jerfz, you might consider Fairgrounds Warden over Fiend Hunter when it comes out. You lose the any creature flexibility but gain accessibility pick wise.
Is Crystal Shard oppressive? It seems like it would be.
How good is Skullclamp for you? We never try it out because it seems so strong. The same is true for Rancor. Comments?
I'm going through your list and i realize i have too much to talk about. I'm overloaded. Also, I didn't notice you intended to be all peasant at first. How much was this Stack? $50?
Questions and Thoughts about 6jerfz ShortStack
Also, 6jerfz, you might consider Fairgrounds Warden over Fiend Hunter when it comes out. You lose the any creature flexibility but gain accessibility pick wise.
Haven't given a solid consideration to any CNS2 or Kaladesh cards just yet. I've been lazing about. I will look into them for sure! Though, I do like the off chances of cheating an exile effect with Fiend Hunter in the bounce deck.
Is Crystal Shard oppressive? It seems like it would be. It's certainly one of the stronger cards I have my eye on. The bounce.dec archetype is quite strong. I'm open to other options.
How good is Skullclamp for you? We never try it out because it seems so strong. The same is true for Rancor. Comments? Skullclamp is an amazing card and very strong without being oppressive. It balances the inherent CA of blue and black quite well in white, red, and green. I wouldn't say it is on the chopping block just yet, but it could always be downgraded to one of the pseudo-Skullclamps that have been printed in recent years. As far as Rancor is converned, it likely isn't going anywhere. It gives aggro decks oomph--something that I've found difficult about designing my list. White and Black have unbeatable removal, blue has loads of CA built in. In order to balance these aspects with aggro cards, you have to have quality aggressiveness. Rancor has so far done this well without being overwhelming.
I'm going through your list and i realize i have too much to talk about. I'm overloaded. Also, I didn't notice you intended to be all peasant at first. How much was this Stack? $50? I think it can be build for under $50 if you accept MP-LP cards and don't include basic lands. I had a lot of the cards sitting around and only needed to buy maybe 40 cards. For me to build this, I spent maybe under $20 of my own money. Keep the comments coming!
My friend and I are building a General Stack right now. I'll post the list when it's done but I'd like to play it a few times first before I say anything about it.
Aggro seems okay on paper so far. There is a lot of removal and it's not all located in one or two colors.
I think I've said before but it's 99% only one colored symbol in each card cost. The new energy mechanic is great for a Stack like this too. We're designing it to be as interactive as possible with as little plain effects going as design allows.
I'm excited to get some feedback from playing and from this thread.
I'll keep the questions and comments flowing as long as people stay interested.
The deck is comprised of mostly cards containing only one colored mana symbol in cost and abilities. The point being to maximize the draftability of cards across more drafts and to encourage multi colored decks of 3 or more colors.
Our WinStack is a "general" build with small amounts of intended support for Warriors and Thopters/Servos. There is plenty of removal and we've tried to take typical effects and spread them around in new ways to maximize the amount of interaction and choices. (Like Lunar Force for instance)
Budget is also a factor as is the power of the WinStack. The list is only $40! We've included rares but nothing you couldn't get for under $3. Swords to Plowshares is the most expensive card at $2.57 currently.
We've not tested this list yet but we wanted to get it out there to draw on your knowledge. We're open to suggestions and discussion about the list but we are trying to keep within the guidelines laid out above.
I noticed about your cube is that blue and green seem exceptionally weak compared to the other three colors which tend to synergize rather well with warrior tribal.
You have three colorless mana-fixing cards, which seems rather low to me, even for a cube devoted to mostly playing cards with only one mana symobl.
Seems to be a ton of removal...probably too much.
There are a few cards that are just bad (e.g. Lunar Force, Salvage Drone, Life's Legacy, etc)
Finally, the swing on power level of individual cards in the cube is crazy. Salvage Drone vs. Hangarback Walker, Oviya vs. Eddytrail Hawk..
Now, this is all conjecture, because of course I've never played your cube, but I think it needs a fair amount of balancing, both between colors and in a general sense. As far as the idea about keeping it "easy to draft and build 3-color decks" goes, I think you can do that without playing sub-par cards like Lunar Force. You simply have to add some additional fixing. Look at my list for some ideas.
Hey 6jerfz thanks for the response and thank you for your critiques and comments. Also, I saw that you drafted the deck(or initiated event that notifies me of such at least) so thanks for doing that too.
Firstly, a disclaimer, though I think I've mentioned it before, we've yet to play this stack list. So if it seems out of balance it most probably is lol but I don't apologize for my lack of expertise in regards to balance and card power (I'm a Timmy Johnny after all lol).
When we start playing this stack (At the beginning of October) I'll be sure to post more about how the list appears to be functioning. So for now I can't speak to your points from a perspective other than speculation but hey that's one of the funnest parts of this game for me. I can, however, speculate with the best of'em (worst of'em?). And it's my speculation that there is too much removal. Blue for sure is weak but I thought green was alright.
The weird Thopter/Servo shenanigans are something we are trying to get in here at all costs, even at the risk of a seeming Gary Busey keyboard takeover. You might notice every color makes it helps thopters.
Salvage Drone. Oh Mr. Salvage Drone. It's poop fo sho but what else is blue doing at 1CMC without being too good or being a plain bagel? I was thinking hey ingest in a 40 card deck might be alright and a loot isn't too bad. IDK what I'm doing there, you'd have to fax me from the future. Suggestions on U 1CMC creatures are invited.
As for the wild swings in power levels: we'll play it a few times soon and I'll report back to get more ideas from you folks but for now I'll see what else I can do with editing the list until it quote unquote feels better. The Change Log suggestion box is at the front on your way out.
EDIT: I've had plenty of success with Life's Legacy and it will probably stay through multiple rounds of testing.
What other budget colorless budget mana fixers can you all suggest? Under $3 ($3 is the max of any card)
Oviya probably has to stay regardless because she gets dem tokens out and about. You(6jerfz) didn't suggest she get cut but you pointed her out in contrast to the low power level of Salvage Drone. As above I need help with other fun budget U 1CMCs.
Lunar Force is intended specifically to present different game states than we're used and serves doubly as a more "fun" counter spell as well as the enchantment card type that could matter in the future should it stay. I agree certainly that it is a weaker counterspell effect.
Does the power level of any one or so cards stand out dramatically from the rest of the list? Like "Damn wtf is Ruggley thanken'?"
1CMC blue creatures worth playing: Wingcrafter, Cursecatcher, Delver of Secrets, Enclave Cryptologist, Gudul Lurker, Hypnotic Siren, Mausoleum Wanderer, Prophet of Distortion, Realmwright, Vortex Elemental. I would go with Wingcrafter, but that's just me.
As for OP cards in your list: Hangarback Walker, Mardu Strike Leader, Skinshifter. It is my experience that multiple token generators in this small of a cube are hard to balance. You need more spots for mass removal than you would comfortably be able to put in to balance them. Skinshifter is just such a great card that I think its raw power level is too high relative to other creatures in this stack. I used to play it at 360 and it was a great card then, so that should tell you something.
Also, as a side note, Lightning Axe blows. Play Flame Lash or Burst Lightning instead.
Yes. Basically anything that requires multiple triggers from a specific card type (besides land or creatures) being played is going to hard to support.
So I tried making my first cube (and a micro-cube at that) and this is what I came up with after a few suggestions and tweaks! I wanted to make a smaller cube, since I don't have too many friends who play, since it seemed more fun, easier to handle, and easy to take with me on my business trips. I do have a 360 cube, but that was one I just copied from cubetutor. This cube was built from scratch.
Looking at it now
What is current price?
Have you yet to buy this list? If you do already own are you willing to buy cards or just use cards out of your current collection?
What drafting rules are in mind for this list if any?
Current price is hovering around 200, which is perfect. If it goes a bit over, I do own some of those cards, especially around the alara-zen-scars era, so I don't own the list yet, but may buy it within the month or so once it feels balanced.
I wanted something which felt powerful like modern, but also wasnt filled with super complex cards. I fell in love with the idea of a micro cube due to the flexibility of all the cards, and how it can push players to get creative.
For draft, Ive just been testing 5packs, 9cards, 3 bots. 180 is capped at 4 players and that feels good, but also im not an experienced limited player, so I need opinions on that.
Very similar to the previous cube, but added flexibility due to the simple quality of the cards. Same requirements, 10 color pairs, 180 cards, except no more budget. Cards like Snapcaster mage just work well for so many archetypes, UR spells, UB control, and UB value. Archangel of Thune for WR tokens, WB lifegain etc. Wurmcoil Engine, Kitchen Finks, Bitterblossom, and Noble Hierach are all cool new toys I think.
The goal of this cube was to provide a power level similar to modern constructed, while opening up a number of different archetypes (10 color pairs), but having the option of 3+ color decks as well. Decks can be aggressive (RW, RB, RU, UW), midrange (WG, WB UG, BG), control (UB, Grixis, Esper), and combo (UR, WB).
At 180 cards, space is a premium, so cards were all selected to fit a number of archetypes. Of course, some cards only fit a singular one, but I think it's OK since the payoff for those cards is huge in the right decks.
I've built this cube to play amongst my friends, and as they are only 2-4 of us (life comes in the way of us meeting at times) I've decided to settle on a 180 sized cube. Keeping it peasant will lower the overall price of the cube, also keeps the draft a little tight, than overpowered. As the cube is small, I understand multicolored cards should be sparse, fixing should be at just about 10% (mine is lower) and I cannot expect archetypes to be fluid.
You can find my cube here http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65592
The archetypes my cube possesses, I feel are:
* UW - Fliers/bounce
* UB - Control
* RB - aggro/aristocrats
* GR - Aggro
* GW - tokens
* BW - aristocrats
* GB - reanimator (although I dont think I have the right cards yet for this)
* UG - tempo/ramp
* UR - spells matter
* RW - aggro tokens
I understand some cards like Lingering Souls would be an Orzhov card, but I have it in place of midnight haunting, with the option of a slight black splash. I was thinking of other such cards as possibilties in the cube like spider spawning and rally the peasants.
I also like to have every creature to impact the board in someway or at least have an ability like penumbra spider, and for spells to do twice of what they are asked at times (flashback). I'm sure I may need more fixing, and I dont mind artifacts or lands, so long as it makes them work a little for the fixing.
A few questions I have are:
* Reanimator doesn't seem to have much of an engine, should I add in more discard outlets and reanimate cards?
* Green and White seem quite powerful, whereas Red and Blue seem weaker, anything I can do to shore them up or weaken them?
* I have 11 sources for fixing, would I need a few more?
Thanks for reading and any advice will be appreciated!
White: Try to shift away from tokens. I've found that assigning a particular color or combination of colors to a tokens archetype in an environment lacking quality mass removal (Wrath, Wildfire, Toxic Deluge, etc) is extremely difficult to balance. While a few token producers aren't bad (my 90-card cube runs a few), focusing on token producers can cause trouble.
Blue: It is my opinion that in cubes with restricted pools, where blue doesn't have the depth it would in a regular cube, blue suffers more than any other color. To make up for this, I've found that blue has to capitalize on EtB effects or spells that can single-handedly put immense pressure on your opponent, because sometimes, blue can only really do one thing at a time. You should cut some of your dupe looting effects and other duplicated abilities and focus on a few high quality cards. Waterfront Bouncer and Mulldrifter 100% should be in your list.
Black: Black has the opposite problem of blue. You have to balance the crazy etb effects black creatures have, which are usually kill spells on a stick, with the removal in other colors or else you end up with people fighting over black every. single. pack. Just a quick glance and I can tell your black section has too much removal or removal type effects. That's fine though because you can adjust your numbers to make room for some reanimator support. A word of caution though, in smaller cubes where colors have less outs to huge threats, you have to make sure your reanimation targets aren't too strong and that it isn't too easy to reanimate (i.e. animate dead).
Red: Some weird choices in your red section (Guttersnipe, Reckless Bushwhacker, etc). If you want your red to be aggressive, then make it actively aggressive, not passively--Guttersnipe, I'm looking at you. I would rather run Fire Imp, Keldon Champion, and Hellspark Elemental than any of the cards you run that are meant to be dashed, need other card types to have an effect, or otherwise do something besides turn sideways with more oomph than opposing creatures. On that note, I'd take a good hard look at your {card type}-matters cards (prowess, Kiln Fiend, etc) and decide whether or not that's something you feel you can truly support in a meaningful way.
Green: Looks pretty good--I'm eyeing up those curve-toppers with multiple G in their cost though. Might want to keep an eye on those and look for more accessible fatties.
White: Try to shift away from tokens. I've found that assigning a particular color or combination of colors to a tokens archetype in an environment lacking quality mass removal (Wrath, Wildfire, Toxic Deluge, etc) is extremely difficult to balance. While a few token producers aren't bad (my 90-card cube runs a few), focusing on token producers can cause trouble.
Blue: It is my opinion that in cubes with restricted pools, where blue doesn't have the depth it would in a regular cube, blue suffers more than any other color. To make up for this, I've found that blue has to capitalize on EtB effects or spells that can single-handedly put immense pressure on your opponent, because sometimes, blue can only really do one thing at a time.
Black: Black has the opposite problem of blue. You have to balance the crazy etb effects black creatures have, which are usually kill spells on a stick, with the removal in other colors or else you end up with people fighting over black every. single. pack.
As someone who isn't an experienced cube builder, or even limited player, how can one go about avoiding some of these issues in their cubes? I made a cube with similar archetypes and am worried about the same problem.
I did initially create a spreadsheet which tallied up which cards supported which archetypes (like Young Pyromancer for UR spells, and RW tokens, or Gatekeeper of Malakir for UB control, and RB vampires). At the end, UB control had most points, which I then adjusted the cards to push more options to some of the other archetypes.
But I don't even have the cube built, nor a consistant playgroup to try it with. Just building and perfecting the list is fun enough, but I will build it at some point over the next month or so. I want a solid start for when I introduce the cube to them for the very first time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my 192 Travel Cube!
Requesting drafts and feedback, both good and bad.
It comes from experience with the cube. Draft it over and over and over. You'll recognize when you've been drafting color X and Y over A, B, and C or card A 95% of the time its in a pack over other cards in the pack and that should be your hint that something is unbalanced. When I built my 90 card cube, I knew the bombs in my colors and I'd try to consider what I would do in a pack with every single one of them. If one card stuck out as the #1 pick far beyond the rest, I knew that would call for some balancing--not necessarily removing that card, but maybe throughout the rest of the archetype. Make sure that if you do something like that, you don't make the archetype hinge on one particular card or your drafts will be monotonous and the majority of the time, the archetype just won't play well.
White: I was thinking of taking out some token producers, but I've also seen that I have Pestilence, Drown in sorrow, pyroclasm and Slice and dice to deal with them. I have 6 token producers in white (7 including doomed traveler), 1 in blue, 0 in black, 3 in red, 6 in green (2 after they are destroyed and 1 Beast Within) and 1 in GW colors. So I guess limiting 1 in white and 1 in green should help with that issue, while keeping a theme of tokens balanced. Battle Screech replaced by Elite Vanguard.
Blue: I absolutely agree with you and have replaced Welkin Tern and looter il-kor with Mulldrifter and Waterfront Bouncer.
Black: I switched Shriekmaw with Falkenrath Noble, adding more to the aristocrats, and replaced Animate Dead with Dread Return (its much slower, can only target your own graveyard, but has a flashback cost that goes with the sacrifice theme)
Red: I hear you on the aggressive front, but I'd like to support the spells matter deck too, in which guttersnipe would do quite a bit of damage itself. Kiln fiend I'm undecided on, but will continue testing it, otherwise will replace it with Mogg War Marshal/Gore-house Chainwalker/Borderland Marauder. I've replaced Lightning Beserker, Thopter Engineer and Goblin Heelcutter with Reckless Waif, Hellspark Elemental, and Ebodiment of Fury (I do feel trample will help, and it can bring an extra body some turns).
Green: Pelakka Wurm and Plated Crusher are the green high end staples of Peasant Cubes, also in colorless there is Bane of Bala Ged and Breaker of Armies to ramp into. Replaced Roar of the Wurm with Overrun. (this might be a bad idea.....)
I don't see the merit to running a single two-color card per guild. Also, you have a few cards that augments the effective numbers for a particular guild/color (i.e. Lingering Souls, Crystal Shard, Porcelain Legionnaire, etc). If you chose to include the representative guild card as a stylistic choice, I guess that's okay...I would expand my colors/colorless/land section. I was personally inclined to do this exact thing in my 90-card cube: cut guild cards for 5 colorless and 1 more for each color. It isn't written in concrete, but I think it is the most correct way to build a small cube.
Some specific cards that have me scratching my head:
Lurebound Scarecrow: Just feels weird to me...I think this is a "feels bad, man" type of card, which I generally try to avoid 1) picking in a drat and 2) putting in my cube.
Fellwar Stone: Surely there is better 2CMC fixing available.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UBR
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Trial and error
About 6 months ago I changed up my multi-color. I found that despite having the "best" multi-color card in each color pair (I one one for each) they were becoming dead picks in 4 player and didn't see the table as much even in two player (Winston/Winchester). So I decided to go all hybrid/Split cards with the idea they would see more play (and they have).
-- Geena --
It's hard for me to comment on a general build vs. a synergistic build regarding microcubes because I've only ever played with my own 90-card-er. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that so long as the stack was designed to allow multiple synergies in multiple color combinations, the synergistic list will be more interesting than the general. I find it harder to evaluate cards for a "general" list as well. That's about all I can comment on that point.
As far as replayability and fun in my cube? It's always a fun time, that's for sure. There are certainly expected synergies and plays and notorious cards--the more you play the micro cube with a particular person, the better you both understand which cards and plays these are., which I think that forces you to scout out new strategies and reevaluate certain cards constantly. Being able to craft 10 or more coherent decks from 90 cards is pretty mind boggling.
When you played it the first few times did you notice any undesirable characteristics in the 90?
What sort of cards have you made changes to the most? Can you talk about some of those changes if any?
With a deck size of 40 and an average of 17 lands that leaves us with using ~46 cards between both player's decks from the 90. Do you see the same 46 cards frequently? Have you noticed certain decks being constructed more frequently than others? If so, what cards have you noticed those decks center around?
I have so many questions sorry but please any poster feel free to answer these. I'm interested in taking a more focused look at this format but specifically 90 cards for two people
This is a great point and is a unique advantage to this style of MicroCube (What I refer to as a Stack); Smaller changes make bigger impacts.
Oh absolutely! There are plenty of neat colorless doodads Kaladesh provides. I really appreciate the amount of flexibility Cultivator's Caravan brings to our Stack. It is an improvement over something like Chromatic Lantern in a ShortStack of 90. Cultivator's Caravan goes further for us because with the general build we are going with we've tried to use mostly Mana Costs with only one color symbol. This sort of color minimizing improves consistency across more games in terms of fun and ability to try a wider range of deck types.
. . .
EDIT: I might mention that we build our ShortStax to be drafted using Winston or Winchester style picking.
Questions and Thoughts about 6jerfz ShortStack
Also, 6jerfz, you might consider Fairgrounds Warden over Fiend Hunter when it comes out. You lose the any creature flexibility but gain accessibility pick wise.
Is Crystal Shard oppressive? It seems like it would be.
How good is Skullclamp for you? We never try it out because it seems so strong. The same is true for Rancor. Comments?
I'm going through your list and i realize i have too much to talk about. I'm overloaded. Also, I didn't notice you intended to be all peasant at first. How much was this Stack? $50?
Aggro seems okay on paper so far. There is a lot of removal and it's not all located in one or two colors.
I think I've said before but it's 99% only one colored symbol in each card cost. The new energy mechanic is great for a Stack like this too. We're designing it to be as interactive as possible with as little plain effects going as design allows.
I'm excited to get some feedback from playing and from this thread.
I'll keep the questions and comments flowing as long as people stay interested.
Highlights are
Removed DFCs because I don't use sleeves
Toned down life gain
Toned down bounce.dec
We call it our WinStack 90 as it is meant to be drafted using the Winston Draft or Winchester Draft formats.
The deck is comprised of mostly cards containing only one colored mana symbol in cost and abilities. The point being to maximize the draftability of cards across more drafts and to encourage multi colored decks of 3 or more colors.
Our WinStack is a "general" build with small amounts of intended support for Warriors and Thopters/Servos. There is plenty of removal and we've tried to take typical effects and spread them around in new ways to maximize the amount of interaction and choices. (Like Lunar Force for instance)
Budget is also a factor as is the power of the WinStack. The list is only $40! We've included rares but nothing you couldn't get for under $3. Swords to Plowshares is the most expensive card at $2.57 currently.
We've not tested this list yet but we wanted to get it out there to draw on your knowledge. We're open to suggestions and discussion about the list but we are trying to keep within the guidelines laid out above.
Firstly, a disclaimer, though I think I've mentioned it before, we've yet to play this stack list. So if it seems out of balance it most probably is lol but I don't apologize for my lack of expertise in regards to balance and card power (I'm a Timmy Johnny after all lol).
When we start playing this stack (At the beginning of October) I'll be sure to post more about how the list appears to be functioning. So for now I can't speak to your points from a perspective other than speculation but hey that's one of the funnest parts of this game for me. I can, however, speculate with the best of'em (worst of'em?). And it's my speculation that there is too much removal. Blue for sure is weak but I thought green was alright.
The weird Thopter/Servo shenanigans are something we are trying to get in here at all costs, even at the risk of a seeming Gary Busey keyboard takeover. You might notice every color makes it helps thopters.
Salvage Drone. Oh Mr. Salvage Drone. It's poop fo sho but what else is blue doing at 1CMC without being too good or being a plain bagel? I was thinking hey ingest in a 40 card deck might be alright and a loot isn't too bad. IDK what I'm doing there, you'd have to fax me from the future. Suggestions on U 1CMC creatures are invited.
As for the wild swings in power levels: we'll play it a few times soon and I'll report back to get more ideas from you folks but for now I'll see what else I can do with editing the list until it quote unquote feels better. The Change Log suggestion box is at the front on your way out.
EDIT: I've had plenty of success with Life's Legacy and it will probably stay through multiple rounds of testing.
What other budget colorless budget mana fixers can you all suggest? Under $3 ($3 is the max of any card)
Oviya probably has to stay regardless because she gets dem tokens out and about. You(6jerfz) didn't suggest she get cut but you pointed her out in contrast to the low power level of Salvage Drone. As above I need help with other fun budget U 1CMCs.
Lunar Force is intended specifically to present different game states than we're used and serves doubly as a more "fun" counter spell as well as the enchantment card type that could matter in the future should it stay. I agree certainly that it is a weaker counterspell effect.
Does the power level of any one or so cards stand out dramatically from the rest of the list? Like "Damn wtf is Ruggley thanken'?"
Colorless mana fixing: Mirrodin's Core, Pilgrim's Eye, Prismatic Lens, Armillary Sphere, Prophetic Prism
As for OP cards in your list: Hangarback Walker, Mardu Strike Leader, Skinshifter. It is my experience that multiple token generators in this small of a cube are hard to balance. You need more spots for mass removal than you would comfortably be able to put in to balance them. Skinshifter is just such a great card that I think its raw power level is too high relative to other creatures in this stack. I used to play it at 360 and it was a great card then, so that should tell you something.
Also, as a side note, Lightning Axe blows. Play Flame Lash or Burst Lightning instead.
It sure would be nice to have more people active in this thread.
EDIT: In a list only containing 90 cards ands decks being only 40, does Prowess become much weaker than it is in a larger cube?
1x Herald of Anafenza
1x Mardu Woe-Reaper
1x Eddytrail Hawk
1x Herald of Dromoka
1x Whitemane Lion
1x Arashin Foremost
1x Fairgrounds Warden
1x Kor Sanctifiers
1x Dragonscale General
1x Timely Hordemate
White Instant
1x Condemn
1x Emerge Unscathed
White Sorcery
1x Rush of Battle
White Enchantment
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Faith's Fetters
Blue Creature
1x Enclave Cryptologist
1x Wingcrafter
1x Omenspeaker
1x Quickling
1x Spiketail Hatchling
1x Illusory Angel
1x Man-o'-War
1x Mizzium Meddler
1x Elgaud Shieldmate
1x Stunt Double
Blue Instant
1x Into the Roil
1x Mana Leak
1x Unsubstantiate
1x Fact or Fiction
Blue Enchantment
1x Dissipation Field
1x Bloodsoaked Champion
1x Mardu Shadowspear
1x Blood-Chin Rager
1x Kolaghan Skirmisher
1x Mardu Strike Leader
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Nirkana Cutthroat
1x Alesha's Vanguard
1x Bellowing Saddlebrute
1x Gilt-Leaf Winnower
Black Instant
1x Ultimate Price
1x Eyeblight's Ending
1x Rend Flesh
Black Sorcery
1x Raven's Crime
1x Read the Bones
Red Creature
1x Lavastep Raider
1x Lightning Berserker
1x Zurgo Bellstriker
1x Borderland Marauder
1x War-Name Aspirant
1x Geier Reach Bandit
1x Lathnu Hellion
1x Flametongue Kavu
1x Maulfist Doorbuster
1x Flamerush Rider
Red Instant
1x Burst Lightning
Red Sorcery
1x Reckless Charge
1x Pyroclasm
1x Arc Lightning
1x Radiant Flames
1x Twinblade Slasher
1x Wolfbitten Captive
1x Bramblewood Paragon
1x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Hamlet Captain
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Silverfur Partisan
1x Solitary Hunter
1x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1x Wolfir Silverheart
Green Instant
1x Moment's Peace
1x Unravel the Aether
1x Beast Within
Green Sorcery
1x Life's Legacy
Green Enchantment
1x Rancor
Colourless Artifact Creature
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Filigree Familiar
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Volatile Rig
Colourless Artifact
1x Paradise Mantle
1x Brittle Effigy
1x Runed Stalactite
1x Terrarion
1x Armillary Sphere
1x Prophetic Prism
1x Cultivator's Caravan
1x Obsidian Battle-Axe
1x Tumble Magnet
Colourless Land
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Terramorphic Expanse
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65493
It's a 180 cube, ~$200 budget. Focus is on two-color pairs with a few (splashable) three-color cards.
Archetypes are:
WU - Tempo
WB - Lifegain / Drain
WR - Tokens / Wide aggro
WG - Goodstuff
UB - Control
UR - Spells Matter
UG - Value creatures
BR - Madness / Vampires
BG - Reanimator
RG - Ramp / Midrange
Black borders only, no super complex or awkward mechanics (dredge, storm etc)
I've drafted it myself a bunch of times, but I seem to always draft my favorite colors (Grixis). It doesn't help that I'm also not a great limited player either. I got some feedback on reddit here https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/55o1jl/180_travel_cube_first_general_feedback/.
I tried to follow all the guidelines outlined in this thread, as well as other sources. What do you think?
Requesting drafts and feedback, both good and bad.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/65652
Playing: Modern UB Fae
Looking at it now
What is current price?
Have you yet to buy this list? If you do already own are you willing to buy cards or just use cards out of your current collection?
What drafting rules are in mind for this list if any?
I wanted something which felt powerful like modern, but also wasnt filled with super complex cards. I fell in love with the idea of a micro cube due to the flexibility of all the cards, and how it can push players to get creative.
For draft, Ive just been testing 5packs, 9cards, 3 bots. 180 is capped at 4 players and that feels good, but also im not an experienced limited player, so I need opinions on that.
Big Edit:
Gonna throw out the old cube, and turn to proxies in a non-budget version: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65652
Very similar to the previous cube, but added flexibility due to the simple quality of the cards. Same requirements, 10 color pairs, 180 cards, except no more budget. Cards like Snapcaster mage just work well for so many archetypes, UR spells, UB control, and UB value. Archangel of Thune for WR tokens, WB lifegain etc. Wurmcoil Engine, Kitchen Finks, Bitterblossom, and Noble Hierach are all cool new toys I think.
The goal of this cube was to provide a power level similar to modern constructed, while opening up a number of different archetypes (10 color pairs), but having the option of 3+ color decks as well. Decks can be aggressive (RW, RB, RU, UW), midrange (WG, WB UG, BG), control (UB, Grixis, Esper), and combo (UR, WB).
At 180 cards, space is a premium, so cards were all selected to fit a number of archetypes. Of course, some cards only fit a singular one, but I think it's OK since the payoff for those cards is huge in the right decks.
Requesting drafts and feedback, both good and bad.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/65652
Playing: Modern UB Fae
I've built this cube to play amongst my friends, and as they are only 2-4 of us (life comes in the way of us meeting at times) I've decided to settle on a 180 sized cube. Keeping it peasant will lower the overall price of the cube, also keeps the draft a little tight, than overpowered. As the cube is small, I understand multicolored cards should be sparse, fixing should be at just about 10% (mine is lower) and I cannot expect archetypes to be fluid.
You can find my cube here http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/65592
The archetypes my cube possesses, I feel are:
* UW - Fliers/bounce
* UB - Control
* RB - aggro/aristocrats
* GR - Aggro
* GW - tokens
* BW - aristocrats
* GB - reanimator (although I dont think I have the right cards yet for this)
* UG - tempo/ramp
* UR - spells matter
* RW - aggro tokens
I understand some cards like Lingering Souls would be an Orzhov card, but I have it in place of midnight haunting, with the option of a slight black splash. I was thinking of other such cards as possibilties in the cube like spider spawning and rally the peasants.
I also like to have every creature to impact the board in someway or at least have an ability like penumbra spider, and for spells to do twice of what they are asked at times (flashback). I'm sure I may need more fixing, and I dont mind artifacts or lands, so long as it makes them work a little for the fixing.
A few questions I have are:
* Reanimator doesn't seem to have much of an engine, should I add in more discard outlets and reanimate cards?
* Green and White seem quite powerful, whereas Red and Blue seem weaker, anything I can do to shore them up or weaken them?
* I have 11 sources for fixing, would I need a few more?
Thanks for reading and any advice will be appreciated!
Affinity
Legacy:
GBCombo Elves
EDH:
GEzuri, Renegade Leader's Elf Ball
Cube:
180 Peasant Micro Cube
Blue: It is my opinion that in cubes with restricted pools, where blue doesn't have the depth it would in a regular cube, blue suffers more than any other color. To make up for this, I've found that blue has to capitalize on EtB effects or spells that can single-handedly put immense pressure on your opponent, because sometimes, blue can only really do one thing at a time. You should cut some of your dupe looting effects and other duplicated abilities and focus on a few high quality cards. Waterfront Bouncer and Mulldrifter 100% should be in your list.
Black: Black has the opposite problem of blue. You have to balance the crazy etb effects black creatures have, which are usually kill spells on a stick, with the removal in other colors or else you end up with people fighting over black every. single. pack. Just a quick glance and I can tell your black section has too much removal or removal type effects. That's fine though because you can adjust your numbers to make room for some reanimator support. A word of caution though, in smaller cubes where colors have less outs to huge threats, you have to make sure your reanimation targets aren't too strong and that it isn't too easy to reanimate (i.e. animate dead).
Red: Some weird choices in your red section (Guttersnipe, Reckless Bushwhacker, etc). If you want your red to be aggressive, then make it actively aggressive, not passively--Guttersnipe, I'm looking at you. I would rather run Fire Imp, Keldon Champion, and Hellspark Elemental than any of the cards you run that are meant to be dashed, need other card types to have an effect, or otherwise do something besides turn sideways with more oomph than opposing creatures. On that note, I'd take a good hard look at your {card type}-matters cards (prowess, Kiln Fiend, etc) and decide whether or not that's something you feel you can truly support in a meaningful way.
Green: Looks pretty good--I'm eyeing up those curve-toppers with multiple G in their cost though. Might want to keep an eye on those and look for more accessible fatties.
That's all I can comment for now.
As someone who isn't an experienced cube builder, or even limited player, how can one go about avoiding some of these issues in their cubes? I made a cube with similar archetypes and am worried about the same problem.
I did initially create a spreadsheet which tallied up which cards supported which archetypes (like Young Pyromancer for UR spells, and RW tokens, or Gatekeeper of Malakir for UB control, and RB vampires). At the end, UB control had most points, which I then adjusted the cards to push more options to some of the other archetypes.
But I don't even have the cube built, nor a consistant playgroup to try it with. Just building and perfecting the list is fun enough, but I will build it at some point over the next month or so. I want a solid start for when I introduce the cube to them for the very first time.
Requesting drafts and feedback, both good and bad.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/65652
Playing: Modern UB Fae
White: I was thinking of taking out some token producers, but I've also seen that I have Pestilence, Drown in sorrow, pyroclasm and Slice and dice to deal with them. I have 6 token producers in white (7 including doomed traveler), 1 in blue, 0 in black, 3 in red, 6 in green (2 after they are destroyed and 1 Beast Within) and 1 in GW colors. So I guess limiting 1 in white and 1 in green should help with that issue, while keeping a theme of tokens balanced. Battle Screech replaced by Elite Vanguard.
Blue: I absolutely agree with you and have replaced Welkin Tern and looter il-kor with Mulldrifter and Waterfront Bouncer.
Black: I switched Shriekmaw with Falkenrath Noble, adding more to the aristocrats, and replaced Animate Dead with Dread Return (its much slower, can only target your own graveyard, but has a flashback cost that goes with the sacrifice theme)
Red: I hear you on the aggressive front, but I'd like to support the spells matter deck too, in which guttersnipe would do quite a bit of damage itself. Kiln fiend I'm undecided on, but will continue testing it, otherwise will replace it with Mogg War Marshal/Gore-house Chainwalker/Borderland Marauder. I've replaced Lightning Beserker, Thopter Engineer and Goblin Heelcutter with Reckless Waif, Hellspark Elemental, and Ebodiment of Fury (I do feel trample will help, and it can bring an extra body some turns).
Green: Pelakka Wurm and Plated Crusher are the green high end staples of Peasant Cubes, also in colorless there is Bane of Bala Ged and Breaker of Armies to ramp into. Replaced Roar of the Wurm with Overrun. (this might be a bad idea.....)
Affinity
Legacy:
GBCombo Elves
EDH:
GEzuri, Renegade Leader's Elf Ball
Cube:
180 Peasant Micro Cube
Here's my two cents:
I don't see the merit to running a single two-color card per guild. Also, you have a few cards that augments the effective numbers for a particular guild/color (i.e. Lingering Souls, Crystal Shard, Porcelain Legionnaire, etc). If you chose to include the representative guild card as a stylistic choice, I guess that's okay...I would expand my colors/colorless/land section. I was personally inclined to do this exact thing in my 90-card cube: cut guild cards for 5 colorless and 1 more for each color. It isn't written in concrete, but I think it is the most correct way to build a small cube.
Some specific cards that have me scratching my head:
Lurebound Scarecrow: Just feels weird to me...I think this is a "feels bad, man" type of card, which I generally try to avoid 1) picking in a drat and 2) putting in my cube.
Fellwar Stone: Surely there is better 2CMC fixing available.