I currently have a 360 cube and am very accustomed to drafts where I can expect to see nearly all the pieces of the archetypes that were put into the cube.
I've never drafted a cube bigger than 360 and I'm wondering how you deal with drafting stuff like reanimator when you aren't guaranteed to see all the cards in the cube? I've done the opposite where I've drafted with fewer than 8 and tried to draft an archetype only to find half the cards I need and I end up with just a pile of good cards but not terribly synergistic.
Is drafting larger cubes like this? Do you rarely get to go full out reanimator and just get left with one animate dead and 2 finishers you are able to pitch the yard with 2 discard in the main? Is a lot of the time spent looking for just a pile of good cards and only playing a theme if you happen to luck out?
I'm assuming this has more to do with my draft style and skill and I'll admit that I do tend to try to force things, but in a 360 list I at least have the certainty that the card I want will circulate and that I can use its absence as a sign that someone else is playing something similar.
It's not like in a cube bigger than 360 you run the staples and the rest is blanks. When the cube gets bigger you usually see more cards to support archetypes, one example would be running more reanimation spells and discard outlets for the reanimator deck. Yeah sure sometimes you pick an early wildfire and see no artifact ramp but most of the time your deck is at least consistent. And yes forcing things when you are not drafting the whole cube tends to end in disaster.
Yeah that's the fun in it. Sometimes you get there and sometimes you don't... but either way you're going to be playing the deck. Sometimes a focused reanimator deck doesn't do that well and sometimes a junk pile of a reanimator deck does well.
I wrote an article today that lists the actual percentages of getting archetype cards in the jump from 360 - 450 here. It might be useful for you! Overall though I agree with the above posters - you have to find a nice balance of supporting your archetypes and not diluting them too much, but also it's fine to not see them pop up every single draft.
Include a decent enough concentration that archetypes become reliable, but not automatic. You shouldn't be able to sit down and know with 100% certainty which cards you'll get. Where's the fun in that?
Quote from eidolon232 »
You should not use a cube that is bigger than the number of players you need.
And I couldn't possibly disagree with this advice more. I would always design a cube with extra room for variety and uncertainty in the drafts. Drafting the exact same pool of cards repeatedly gets stale. Having a small percentage of the cube always unavailable keeps things fresh and interesting.
I've seen it both ways. Some people would rather cancel a draft than play with fewer than 8 people @ 360 (guarantees archetype support) but the majority of my group likes to see variety in the drafts. It can get stale if you see the all the same cards building all the same decks week after week. For example: the ideal reanimator deck came out every week for almost a month once in our drafts. Some variance is refreshing.
It works out for us because we seldom have more than 4 people, so we can play around with many different types of drafting. This adds to the fun and results in some different decks, even if it does occasionally come down to a midrange slugfest.
Besides the part where cards get left undrafted, you also have the problem that the distributions of the cards are messed up, for example when you end up with twice as many artifact destruction spells and only 50% of the artifacts make it in.
I just see this as an argument in favor of seeding the packs. By this I do not mean rationing out specific cards, but ensuring that the portion of the cube you draft has the same WUBRGMCL percentages as the complete cube.
I'll grant this does not ensure the availability of an archetype, but for most archetypes I think that is fine. I don't really want an archetype in my cube that falls apart completely without a high threshold of relevant cards.
I just see this as an argument in favor of seeding the packs. By this I do not mean rationing out specific cards, but ensuring that the portion of the cube you draft has the same WUBRGMCL percentages as the complete cube.
I agree with this (though I have lands in with the multicolor/colorless sections, and have a separate section for PWers).
I believe I am the only person who has ever attempted to make a scaling cube.
Basically because I know what goes into each cube level I have, 360 upto 720 thus far, the elastic bands allow me to up the cube size based on players.
At one point I was going to separate 360 from a 4 player cube but it wasn't worth it, 360 is so stacked almost every deck is over the top.
Our group just runs a 720 cube and drafts with 6 or 8 people with a random subset of it. Sure, sometimes you pick a tinker or a wildfire and don't get where that card wants you to go but a good drafter can always salvage it. Hell, the power level of even the worst cards in my cube are high enough that a random pile of late picks can at least be a decent midrange shell. Sometimes you pull off a sweet fringe archetype and more often than not, you end up with some sort of GB midrange or UB control or something that happens to be sporting a reanimator package, or you made a UW control deck that just happens to have Academy and a couple of utility rocks. If anything, a healthy level of inconsistency forces players to get creative, both in drafting and deck building. Granted I am running second copies of birthing pod and life from the loam so I'll be the first to admit that too few enablers can certainly be an issue.
Yeah this thread is timeless so the necro is harmless.
Finding this a really interesting read. I definitely prefer a larger cube. You get around issues of decks not having enough support by adding redundant effects. So lets say you support Bg reanimator - you have the best cards for the archetype (Entomb, Reanimate, Survival, Recurring Nightmare, etc) but there's definitely a strong second tier of cards like Zombify (at the weaker end) or Dance of the Dead (at the stronger). Importantly both do *something* relevant in an off-theme deck too.
In my playgroup we drafted the whole 360 even when we were only 6 just to have full archetype support. But after a while it got boring to see almost the same decks every time. Now I think, if you want to play constructed, dont play cube.
Its more interesting to have a bigger cube with some crap, so drafting and matches get more interesting and you see/play cards you normally wont.
Thats why I moved to a flavor-cube.
In my opinion, having extra cards sit in the box when people are drafting adds SO MUCH to the draft dynamics. The main gains I see:
The people who know the cube contents more aren't rewarded as much because it's possible that key pieces aren't even in play.
It's less rewarding to hate draft. When you're picking a key piece from an archetype, that archetype might not be viable from the current pool anyway, OR it could be flooded with pieces and invalidate your pick
More variety. By not drafting the whole thing, you're getting more "cube" out of your cube. There's more possible pools meaning there's more variance on which archetypes are good/etc.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The GameCube, a 500 cube with a medium power level and a focus on fun and fringe playables rather than immediately shutting your opponent down with the best cards ever printed.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
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I've never drafted a cube bigger than 360 and I'm wondering how you deal with drafting stuff like reanimator when you aren't guaranteed to see all the cards in the cube? I've done the opposite where I've drafted with fewer than 8 and tried to draft an archetype only to find half the cards I need and I end up with just a pile of good cards but not terribly synergistic.
Is drafting larger cubes like this? Do you rarely get to go full out reanimator and just get left with one animate dead and 2 finishers you are able to pitch the yard with 2 discard in the main? Is a lot of the time spent looking for just a pile of good cards and only playing a theme if you happen to luck out?
I'm assuming this has more to do with my draft style and skill and I'll admit that I do tend to try to force things, but in a 360 list I at least have the certainty that the card I want will circulate and that I can use its absence as a sign that someone else is playing something similar.
http://cubetutor.playworks.cloudbees.net/viewcube/57
But for me I'd rather people not be like "reanimator is open, now I get the sweet, 100% guaranteed deck."
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
And I couldn't possibly disagree with this advice more. I would always design a cube with extra room for variety and uncertainty in the drafts. Drafting the exact same pool of cards repeatedly gets stale. Having a small percentage of the cube always unavailable keeps things fresh and interesting.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
It works out for us because we seldom have more than 4 people, so we can play around with many different types of drafting. This adds to the fun and results in some different decks, even if it does occasionally come down to a midrange slugfest.
[360][Unpowered] USAstrat's Cube
Draft my cube on CubeTutor!
Modern: UWR UWR Control
EDH: WBR Kaalia of the Vast
I just see this as an argument in favor of seeding the packs. By this I do not mean rationing out specific cards, but ensuring that the portion of the cube you draft has the same WUBRGMCL percentages as the complete cube.
I'll grant this does not ensure the availability of an archetype, but for most archetypes I think that is fine. I don't really want an archetype in my cube that falls apart completely without a high threshold of relevant cards.
I agree with this (though I have lands in with the multicolor/colorless sections, and have a separate section for PWers).
Basically because I know what goes into each cube level I have, 360 upto 720 thus far, the elastic bands allow me to up the cube size based on players.
At one point I was going to separate 360 from a 4 player cube but it wasn't worth it, 360 is so stacked almost every deck is over the top.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Once I realized how often I am always sorting and playing around with the cube and putting it back, it didn't make much difference to me.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Finding this a really interesting read. I definitely prefer a larger cube. You get around issues of decks not having enough support by adding redundant effects. So lets say you support Bg reanimator - you have the best cards for the archetype (Entomb, Reanimate, Survival, Recurring Nightmare, etc) but there's definitely a strong second tier of cards like Zombify (at the weaker end) or Dance of the Dead (at the stronger). Importantly both do *something* relevant in an off-theme deck too.
Its more interesting to have a bigger cube with some crap, so drafting and matches get more interesting and you see/play cards you normally wont.
Thats why I moved to a flavor-cube.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.