I think I'd run Soul Exchange over all of the 4 cost spells. Pitching a creature in a reanimate deck doesn't seem too restrictive.
It seems really restrictive to me. If I'm playing a really combo reanimator deck, it's quite possible I'll have no creatures on the board on t2 or t3. If I do have a creature, it's likely a reanimation enabler like Lotleth Troll or Oona's Prowler. I wouln't want to exile them because I may want to pitch an additional fatty later if the first on gets dealt with. If I'm playing a more value style reanimator deck, exiling a creature can really suck. I'd for sure play Makeshift Mannequin and Diabolic Servitude over Soul Exchange.
It seems really restrictive to me. If I'm playing a really combo reanimator deck, it's quite possible I'll have no creatures on the board on t2 or t3. If I do have a creature, it's likely a reanimation enabler like Lotleth Troll or Oona's Prowler. I wouln't want to exile them because I may want to pitch an additional fatty later if the first on gets dealt with. If I'm playing a more value style reanimator deck, exiling a creature can really suck. I'd for sure play Makeshift Mannequin and Diabolic Servitude over Soul Exchange.
Cheers,
rant
My mistake. I thought the exiling was similar to that of Force of Will.
You require 5 reanimation spells in your deck to have an above 75% chance to naturally draw a single one of them by turn 4.
I'd like a little more analysis on this. I took a gander at your cube and only found Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude, Animate Dead, and Reanimate. Does this mean you generally rely on the tutors to reach your ~75% odds of drawing a reanimate spell by turn 4 in your combo decks? How did you arrive at only playing those 4 cards instead of including things like Necromancy, Exhume, and Dance of the Dead?
No, it means that Eidolon has a downer on "combo" reanimator in cube, and doesn't support it.
I run a 450 powered list, and when I get to cube these days it is usually with 8 players. Dedicated reanimator decks usually appear every other draft, and will vary in how successful they are depending on how the deck comes together, luck of match ups, and doubtless skill of the players. UB typically has enough card draw, looting and tutoring to make combo reanimator viable in my cube, though it may play as a more controlling deck. GB may run reanimator as an alternative to ramping out creatures, or play as a more Rock-like value deck. RB may similarly play as a value deck, or as an unreliable but potentially powerful combo type deck.
The key is not just to run enough reanimation spells, but also to run enough fatties and enablers. You need to have some tough choices in draft, but not be frustrating a drafter by making competition too fierce. Cards like Exhume, Frantic Search or Griselbrand are 'gifts' for the reanimation drafter as it is unlikely that other decks will want them. They also act as useful signals: if they don't wheel, reanimator may not be open.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I cut Vigor Mortis before our cube draft session (with 5 players, since one person bailed out) yesterday. During the first draft, there was just not enough for the archetype going around and the one player who thought about drafting the deck quickly dropped it. During the second draft, I thought about trying the deck, but when Exhume did not table, I abandoned the idea and went for a black aggro deck. The player who was actually drafting reanimator got a pretty sick deck and won every match he played. I'll monitor the deck's performance over the next few drafts, but it might be fine with only 10 fast* reanimation spells in the cube.
Is Keldon Vandals even the best for that effect anymore? We have manic vandal now. And Scrapmelter. And Ingot Chewer.
Manic Vandal is the best, but Keldon Vandals is close behind. Costing only 3 mana makes them a lot better than the other two you mention. Ingot Chewer might have a place in powered lists though, where the cheap evoke cost is actually relevant. Oxidda Scrapmelter is only for really big lists.
Is Keldon Vandals even the best for that effect anymore? We have manic vandal now. And Scrapmelter. And Ingot Chewer.
Manic Vandal is the best, but Keldon Vandals is close behind. Costing only 3 mana makes them a lot better than the other two you mention. Ingot Chewer might have a place in powered lists though, where the cheap evoke cost is actually relevant. Oxidda Scrapmelter is only for really big lists.
Not to mention it hits twice as hard for the same cost* as Manic Vandal and still manages to outmuscle the more expensive Scrapmelter and Chewer.
While Animate Dead got a reprint with the updated wording in the Graveborn premium deck, I fear that Dance of the Dead and Necromancy will never get such reprints. Animate Dead was already pushing it with 10 lines of text (I think for years, the usual maximum has been 9 lines). The other two cards would need 2-4 more lines of text for their current Oracle wordings. Too bad, since their old versions are wordy, confusing and outdated.
As for the four mana reanimation spells: Most of them have the advantage that they are sorceries and leave the creature in play with no strings attached, unlike the enchantment reanimators, which all give the creature an additional weakness. This makes them better if you are reanimating just for some late-game value. They are also only one turn slower than the other reanimation spells, since you have to spend your second turn to get a fatty into your graveyard anyway. Pretty much the only exception to this is Entomb. And some enablers even cost three mana, so having to wait until you reach four mana is sometimes inevitable anyway.
Lastly, a good reanimator deck can be really oppressive. Most aggro decks don't stand a chance against a giant lifelinker or a huge army in a can on the third turn. And against the latter, you won't even have usefull removal! We had such a deck during our last cube draft and playing against it made you feel pretty hopeless. Maybe slowing reanimation down by one turn wouldn't be such a bad thing? Currently, it is one of the strongest archetypes in my cube - despite the low number of reanimation spells.
Necromancy is my favourite reanimation card. It provides the unholy trinity of accessing all graveyards, option of play as an instant and casting cost less than four. That it also illustrates Magic's rich history with its unsettling artwork and obfuscatory verbosity are almost too good to be true. Mark my words: we'll never see text that tiny again.
Moreover, arguing that the second tier of reanimation spells are suboptimal is only true if you don't support dedicated reanimation.
I agree a good reanimation deck can be oppressive versus an aggro deck, but they are usually weak to control. Whether you need to slow them down might depend on how strong control is in your cube.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Greater Morphling has 17 lines of text on one card face. Thankfully it was never translated into German: I suspect it would have required binding as a small paperback.
I concede that the print size on Garruk der Unbarmherzige is smaller, though. Kreaturenspeilstein is quite a word.
This is useful German practice before my holiday next month.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
So what's a good way to go about choosing the archtypes for your Cube? I know for sure I want to do reanimator. I was thinking of looking at a few Legacy lists and picking out cards for other types to build around?
This is useful German practice before my holiday next month.
Are you going to Germany? If you have too much money and happen to go to Switzerland (we do speak some kind of German in some parts of our country), be sure to send me a message and visit the beautiful city of Bern. I'll buy the beers
I was in Meiringen many years ago, which was the only time I have been in Switzerland, and not too far from Bern. This holiday will mostly be travelling in Germany, though we will reach into Austria. There will be castles for my boys, spa hotels for Mrs Dumpty and beer for me. Unfortunately, adding Cubing with Konfusius will be too much of a detour this time.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Understandably so! For what it's worth, I think Germany and Austria are great countries to travel in, and Switzerland could learn a thing or three from those countries when it comes to hospitality.
So unrelated to my actual cube, but how many basics should I keep sleeved to cover a draft? I'm trying to figure out the logistics of buying sleeves/lands for my Innistrad cube, and I want to make sure I have enough. Would 100 of each be enough to cover an 8-man draft?
Would it be useful to have some kind of "What about this card?" thread where you can ask for quick feedback on specific cards? This isn't covered by the "This or That" thread, though it would probably overlap with the [SCD] threads. However, there are so many of them that only got half a dozen or a dozen answers, then die away and slip into the deeper regions of the Card and Archetype Discussion subforum. Sometimes, I just want to ask for experiences and feedback on a borderline card, but don't want to start a whole new thread for it. Or should I just go ahead and start a [SCD] thread, since those have the advantage of being easier to search up later?
What do you guys think about a [MCD] thread for silver bordered cards? I'd like to talk about which would be good, but since a lot of people don't use them, having [SCD]s for them doesn't seem ideal.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think I'd run Soul Exchange over all of the 4 cost spells. Pitching a creature in a reanimate deck doesn't seem too restrictive.
This threw me for a loop as well. I need to look through my cube again and count how many reanimate spells I'm actually running.
Visual Spoiler
Draft!
It seems really restrictive to me. If I'm playing a really combo reanimator deck, it's quite possible I'll have no creatures on the board on t2 or t3. If I do have a creature, it's likely a reanimation enabler like Lotleth Troll or Oona's Prowler. I wouln't want to exile them because I may want to pitch an additional fatty later if the first on gets dealt with. If I'm playing a more value style reanimator deck, exiling a creature can really suck. I'd for sure play Makeshift Mannequin and Diabolic Servitude over Soul Exchange.
Cheers,
rant
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My mistake. I thought the exiling was similar to that of Force of Will.
Agreed completely. Super cool art and super cool flavor.
I'd like a little more analysis on this. I took a gander at your cube and only found Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Servitude, Animate Dead, and Reanimate. Does this mean you generally rely on the tutors to reach your ~75% odds of drawing a reanimate spell by turn 4 in your combo decks? How did you arrive at only playing those 4 cards instead of including things like Necromancy, Exhume, and Dance of the Dead?
Visual Spoiler
Draft!
I run a 450 powered list, and when I get to cube these days it is usually with 8 players. Dedicated reanimator decks usually appear every other draft, and will vary in how successful they are depending on how the deck comes together, luck of match ups, and doubtless skill of the players. UB typically has enough card draw, looting and tutoring to make combo reanimator viable in my cube, though it may play as a more controlling deck. GB may run reanimator as an alternative to ramping out creatures, or play as a more Rock-like value deck. RB may similarly play as a value deck, or as an unreliable but potentially powerful combo type deck.
The key is not just to run enough reanimation spells, but also to run enough fatties and enablers. You need to have some tough choices in draft, but not be frustrating a drafter by making competition too fierce. Cards like Exhume, Frantic Search or Griselbrand are 'gifts' for the reanimation drafter as it is unlikely that other decks will want them. They also act as useful signals: if they don't wheel, reanimator may not be open.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
* Relatively speaking, as mentioned above.
Manic Vandal is the best, but Keldon Vandals is close behind. Costing only 3 mana makes them a lot better than the other two you mention. Ingot Chewer might have a place in powered lists though, where the cheap evoke cost is actually relevant. Oxidda Scrapmelter is only for really big lists.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Not to mention it hits twice as hard for the same cost* as Manic Vandal and still manages to outmuscle the more expensive Scrapmelter and Chewer.
*Your mileage may vary if you dislike echo.
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Level 1 Judge
As for the four mana reanimation spells: Most of them have the advantage that they are sorceries and leave the creature in play with no strings attached, unlike the enchantment reanimators, which all give the creature an additional weakness. This makes them better if you are reanimating just for some late-game value. They are also only one turn slower than the other reanimation spells, since you have to spend your second turn to get a fatty into your graveyard anyway. Pretty much the only exception to this is Entomb. And some enablers even cost three mana, so having to wait until you reach four mana is sometimes inevitable anyway.
Lastly, a good reanimator deck can be really oppressive. Most aggro decks don't stand a chance against a giant lifelinker or a huge army in a can on the third turn. And against the latter, you won't even have usefull removal! We had such a deck during our last cube draft and playing against it made you feel pretty hopeless. Maybe slowing reanimation down by one turn wouldn't be such a bad thing? Currently, it is one of the strongest archetypes in my cube - despite the low number of reanimation spells.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Moreover, arguing that the second tier of reanimation spells are suboptimal is only true if you don't support dedicated reanimation.
I agree a good reanimation deck can be oppressive versus an aggro deck, but they are usually weak to control. Whether you need to slow them down might depend on how strong control is in your cube.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I think you must be thinking of a different card, unless you're counting both sides for the total.
I concede that the print size on Garruk der Unbarmherzige is smaller, though. Kreaturenspeilstein is quite a word.
This is useful German practice before my holiday next month.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I actually think their original wordings are far more intuitive than the oracle text is.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Those are probably the two most important questions you should ask. And any archetypes that are involved with both answers are the way to go.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
What did we lose?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think that was the original thread for this very thing.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029