I am also more interested in the P2P1 value of a card than the firstpick value of a card, since that favors more narrow cards.
I would exclude silver bordered cards from the ranking, since a significant number of players is not going to vote for them anyway, while the people who do are partially "wasting" their votes.
I agree with excluding the Un-cards. As you say most of us will not vote for them and this messes up the ratings.
P2P1 doesn't seem doable to me. It depends on wht you have drafted before and what you passed and all that.
We could have a more low-key ranking this year and do a top 20 "favorite" cube cards rather than a power-level ranking one. It would tone the whole discussion down, eliminate people feeling intimidated by submitting "out of the box" lists and we may find that some of our favorite cube cards might not be the most powerful ones. Just an idea. It would also allow us to include some cards that are super powerful in specific decks that may not be P1P1 choices but could still ultimately be among the best cards in the cube.
We could have a more low-key ranking this year and do a top 20 "favorite" cube cards rather than a power-level ranking one. It would tone the whole discussion down, eliminate people feeling intimidated by submitting "out of the box" lists and we may find that some of our favorite cube cards might not be the most powerful ones. Just an idea. It would also allow us to include some cards that are super powerful in specific decks that may not be P1P1 choices but could still ultimately be among the best cards in the cube.
The power ranking have a use. They help people learn what the best cards are. They help us ask why we think certain cards are good and bad. The fact that it is a series also helps to see how cube evolves.
What you propose can be interesting, but in a more 'unscientific' way. It feels a bit too light to me as well. Also what is wrong with a good discussion? I cannot remember these getting out of hand that much (except maybe the dead horse of silver border cards).
Nothing. I think we could get even more good discussion seeing what cards are peoples' favorites rather than just arguing over which cards are the best.
Some people don't vote seriously when we try to come up with strict criteria anyways. Some voters cast votes for their favorite cards, their playgroup's favorite cards ...hell we even have voters that rank cards based on maindeck percentage when that has nothing to do with P1P1 value. Because of that, I thought it might be better to have people come up with a list of what they think the best cards of that color are in the cube without any strict criteria, and see which ones show up the highest/most often.
It may help us come up with a list of what we consider to be the top 20 most important cube cards in each section, which may actually be more valuable.
What do you think is the #1 cube card in a given section? Based on what criteria ...any criteria you want.
One possible solution for voting is to have people list the 20 most important cards/strongest in their cube for a color, and ranking is determined by how many votes it got?
Personally I think ranking is important as a way for new cubers to figure out what they are missing in their own cubes and what works well in the environment.
We could have a more low-key ranking this year and do a top 20 "favorite" cube cards rather than a power-level ranking one. It would tone the whole discussion down, eliminate people feeling intimidated by submitting "out of the box" lists and we may find that some of our favorite cube cards might not be the most powerful ones. Just an idea. It would also allow us to include some cards that are super powerful in specific decks that may not be P1P1 choices but could still ultimately be among the best cards in the cube.
I like this idea a lot; while the other rankings certainly give new people a chance to look and see what most people are using, there are a LOT of cards that many people don't play which are very enjoyable and powerful. If it even gives someone ONE card that they may have missed before that they wind up enjoying, it is well worth the effort. Cube is about fun, right?
I also like wtwlf's suggestion. A different metric with which to evaluate cube would be refreshing.
I think we should do both though. The power ranking is very useful to newer cube designers and it seems that there has been an influx of them since the modo cube.
How would you describe 'favorite' anyway? A card you always pick over a card with the same power level?
I would imagine that the definition would vary from person to person, but mine would be the cards you like to see, look for, stretch your deck to include, or even audible into whenever you draft/build. The cards that grab your attention most for whatever reason.
I say we just make a list of the cards we think are the best in each section. You can use any criteria you want. I could use a P1P1 metric, Nof could use MD%, Antknee could use favorite factor, kojiro could use archetypal significance ...whatever you as the poster consider to be the most important metric for determining the "best" card. You don't even have to rank them. You can just list your 20 best in alphabetical order. Then we compare the lists, and see which ones make the greatest percentage of lists. So white may look like:
and so on. It would let people know what percentage of players consider card X to be a "top 20 cube card" using any criteria to determine "best" that they want. When it boils down to it, the difference between a card ranked #6 and a card ranked #8 doesn't mean one is better than the other. What's important is that the community feels that both are worthy of being top cards in their category. The % of lists the card winded up on would still give us a ranking of sorts, and there would be no arguments or debates over the order of the cards or which ones are allowed to be on the list. I dunno, seems reasonable to me.
Man, owning a cube is like raising livestock. Don't fall in love, or your heart will get broken.
I understand your sentiment. Nothing is sacred.
I noticed Sol Ring was dropped by over 20%? I'm curious about this one. Is this just people moving from powered to unpowered lists? Unpowered to less powerful lists?
Wtwlf, do you realize your power to affect these rankings? Since so many people copy your cube, you could probably make a card jump up or drop down double digits.
Banning Sol Ring seems like heresy to me. I love opening a pack with Sol Ring. By the numbers tho, a lot people dropped sol ring. Not a couple people, but a lot!
We could have a more low-key ranking this year and do a top 20 "favorite" cube cards rather than a power-level ranking one. It would tone the whole discussion down, eliminate people feeling intimidated by submitting "out of the box" lists and we may find that some of our favorite cube cards might not be the most powerful ones. Just an idea. It would also allow us to include some cards that are super powerful in specific decks that may not be P1P1 choices but could still ultimately be among the best cards in the cube.
Top 10 might be better to separate it from the best-of list and also to encourage more selective choices.
Banning Sol Ring seems like heresy to me. I love opening a pack with Sol Ring. By the numbers tho, a lot people dropped sol ring. Not a couple people, but a lot!
I'd guess that people found out that running Sol Ring without running other power cards (mostly all five Moxes) was a bad idea. The one drafter who was lucky enough to open the Ring got the chance for super explosive starts, while the other drafters had no chance to get something similar for their decks. Also, cards that will be 100% first picked every time are rather boring for draft. (And super fast mana sucks, too.)
Sol Ring is busted enough in powered cubes (personally my vote for the best card in cube) let alone in an unpowered cube. I can understand people wanting to ban the card as it leads to so many unbeatable board states.
I have been stalking the cube forum for a bit and I find the idea of creating a cube fitting a 4-man draft quite intriguing since playing around with the same decks is meh and I like pimping cards. Sorry for my ignorance, anyone has tips what should an unpowered 4 man cube look alike? Number of cards, whether it is possible to go combo/control/aggro in each color or is it worth it concentrating on less options? cheers
New foil Imperial Recruiter! I know there are a few cubes that run this guy, and this should make him considerably more accessible. Looks great with the foiling, too. I'm almost tempted.
So far all the sub-360 lists that I have seen have been miserable, since they try to squeeze in too many high power cards without mana curve and balancing in mind.
If you are willing to make some pretty hard cuts, there are certainly ways to build a list that is smaller than 360, but assuming that you have not designed a cube before, 360 cards is the optimal size for you.
I would stay away from dedicated combo, where you can either have the one crazy turn / lock your opponent out of the game but also have the chance of doing nothing relevant the whole game if your opponent gets rid of 1 card / you don't find one of your pieces and rather have fewer but better supported strategies. This can even go as far as not supporting the trinity of aggro-midrange-control in every color.
The most common cards in the unpowered 360 cards cubes are
Thanks! Well, I can relate to what you wrote..the thing is...I am almost 100% sure it will be played out by 4 players only so the size is more of a practical issue then me wanting it to pump to 720 etc cards.
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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If there is, is there any changes you'd like to see with the power ranking?
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I agree with excluding the Un-cards. As you say most of us will not vote for them and this messes up the ratings.
P2P1 doesn't seem doable to me. It depends on wht you have drafted before and what you passed and all that.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The power ranking have a use. They help people learn what the best cards are. They help us ask why we think certain cards are good and bad. The fact that it is a series also helps to see how cube evolves.
What you propose can be interesting, but in a more 'unscientific' way. It feels a bit too light to me as well. Also what is wrong with a good discussion? I cannot remember these getting out of hand that much (except maybe the dead horse of silver border cards).
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Nothing. I think we could get even more good discussion seeing what cards are peoples' favorites rather than just arguing over which cards are the best.
Some people don't vote seriously when we try to come up with strict criteria anyways. Some voters cast votes for their favorite cards, their playgroup's favorite cards ...hell we even have voters that rank cards based on maindeck percentage when that has nothing to do with P1P1 value. Because of that, I thought it might be better to have people come up with a list of what they think the best cards of that color are in the cube without any strict criteria, and see which ones show up the highest/most often.
It may help us come up with a list of what we consider to be the top 20 most important cube cards in each section, which may actually be more valuable.
What do you think is the #1 cube card in a given section? Based on what criteria ...any criteria you want.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Personally I think ranking is important as a way for new cubers to figure out what they are missing in their own cubes and what works well in the environment.
Trade List
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I like this idea a lot; while the other rankings certainly give new people a chance to look and see what most people are using, there are a LOT of cards that many people don't play which are very enjoyable and powerful. If it even gives someone ONE card that they may have missed before that they wind up enjoying, it is well worth the effort. Cube is about fun, right?
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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How would you describe 'favorite' anyway? A card you always pick over a card with the same power level?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I think we should do both though. The power ranking is very useful to newer cube designers and it seems that there has been an influx of them since the modo cube.
I would imagine that the definition would vary from person to person, but mine would be the cards you like to see, look for, stretch your deck to include, or even audible into whenever you draft/build. The cards that grab your attention most for whatever reason.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Balance - 98%
Armageddon - 96%
Elspeth - 96%
Land Tax - 94%
and so on. It would let people know what percentage of players consider card X to be a "top 20 cube card" using any criteria to determine "best" that they want. When it boils down to it, the difference between a card ranked #6 and a card ranked #8 doesn't mean one is better than the other. What's important is that the community feels that both are worthy of being top cards in their category. The % of lists the card winded up on would still give us a ranking of sorts, and there would be no arguments or debates over the order of the cards or which ones are allowed to be on the list. I dunno, seems reasonable to me.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I understand your sentiment. Nothing is sacred.
I noticed Sol Ring was dropped by over 20%? I'm curious about this one. Is this just people moving from powered to unpowered lists? Unpowered to less powerful lists?
360 Uncommons only Cube!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Banning Sol Ring seems like heresy to me. I love opening a pack with Sol Ring. By the numbers tho, a lot people dropped sol ring. Not a couple people, but a lot!
360 Uncommons only Cube!
Top 10 might be better to separate it from the best-of list and also to encourage more selective choices.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
The smaller the list is, the more likely the usual suspects are to show up again, and the less likely we are to see more interesting choices.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'd guess that people found out that running Sol Ring without running other power cards (mostly all five Moxes) was a bad idea. The one drafter who was lucky enough to open the Ring got the chance for super explosive starts, while the other drafters had no chance to get something similar for their decks. Also, cards that will be 100% first picked every time are rather boring for draft. (And super fast mana sucks, too.)
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I have been stalking the cube forum for a bit and I find the idea of creating a cube fitting a 4-man draft quite intriguing since playing around with the same decks is meh and I like pimping cards. Sorry for my ignorance, anyone has tips what should an unpowered 4 man cube look alike? Number of cards, whether it is possible to go combo/control/aggro in each color or is it worth it concentrating on less options? cheers
New foil Imperial Recruiter! I know there are a few cubes that run this guy, and this should make him considerably more accessible. Looks great with the foiling, too. I'm almost tempted.
*cries softly in corner*
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Thanks! Well, I can relate to what you wrote..the thing is...I am almost 100% sure it will be played out by 4 players only so the size is more of a practical issue then me wanting it to pump to 720 etc cards.