I'm very new to Cube drafting, and would like to start off from the MTGO Cube list and work my way from there. Are there any threads or links I can go to that discusses the MTGO Cube, and maybe directions I can go from there, such as taking the tribal route for some creatures while still maintaining the core essence of the Cube? Thanks in advance
(my search-fu is weak, as I'm getting a hundred or so results, but none so far that specifically discusses the MTGO Cube)
I second this. A cube with phantasmal bear and headhunter is weak.
Yeah and even at 720+ I don't think you need to be running purely sideboard cards like Flashfreeze, Red Elemental Blast, ect. and the MODO cube does just that.
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It's not a bad cube, it's just a different cube. I think it has some problems, but it's certainly still a fun format. It reminds me a lot of the first iteration of cubes I played a long time ago. Cubes have evolved, and gotten a lot better since then, but playing the MTGO list takes me back to the haymaker style dragon cubes everybody started with. I was hoping to see something innovative and progressive from the MTGO cube when it was spoiled, but instead I got a cube list that looked like it was 5 years old. Cube has evolved, and the format is a lot faster, more powerful and has a much more diverse meta than is represented in their list.
Indeed. Except that in this old style dragon cube they add some cards that would had never made the cut in our (mine at least) first dragon cube.
Plus, the one that designed it claims himself not being cube beginner.
I have nothing against what we could call 'dragon style', heavy cube. It is more accessible for players. If Wizards says it is this kind of cube on purpose, okay, no problem.
But it is a really bad instance of 720 cards dragon cube. Which make me doubt of Tom Lapille cub designing skills. They could say 'okay, we are not familiars with cubing, balancing, etc etc'. But they are damn familiars with balancing, they release years after years almost balanced drafting sets. Wotc managed such a huge pool of cards over such a variety of formats.
The result (mtgocube) is pretty disappointed for me. But maybe we have to give time to time. The positive point is that it brings people here, seeking how to start and improve their owns cubes.
The salient point, though, is that the MTGO cube does fill the same niche that your cube does. Your cube, in all probability, is designed to be played by experienced players maybe as often as once a week for any given person, probably less. It's also tailored around your playgroup and what they like and dislike.
The MTGO cube, on the other hand, gets played tens of thousands of times over the course of a week by a staggering variety of players. It needs to be large enough to remain interesting to those who draft it 10+ times in the week it's available. It needs to be diverse enough to offer nonstandard strategies and keep variety high (storm, dream halls, wildfire, blue aggro). Finally, it needs to limit the power blowout factor to avoid turning new players off entirely.
I thought the same way you did when the list was first released. Then I played it, and watched streams, and read comments on forums all over the web, and came to realize that it's actually a pretty amazing piece of design, given how much broader it's needs are than paper cubes. Just like regular magic, not all of the features are designed for you. They're designed to hit different kinds of players, and in that regard, it's a wild success.
To the OP: for all those reasons, it's probably not a great starting point for you, because you don't have the needs that MODO does.
Eh aggro decks in the MTGO cube are pretty weak which I think is the most valid complaint. That is partly due to size, partly due to lack of focus, partly due to tuning.
I really think that starting with the MODO isn't the right way to go, mostly because it's a big cube. I started with a 630 (still have it, but that's a different story) and the only complaint I have ever had about dealing with it was gathering the cards in the beginning. If I could go back and do it again I'd start with a 360 and expand eventually.
If you wanted to use the MTGO cube as a base, I'd drop the Storm cards, the sideboard exclusive cards, and at least 1/3 of the 4+cc cards. With the extra space add in more aggro support, more mana-fixing lands and more critical mass support for the good archetypes. And lower the curve with every change you can.
The salient point, though, is that the MTGO cube does fill the same niche that your cube does. Your cube, in all probability, is designed to be played by experienced players maybe as often as once a week for any given person, probably less. It's also tailored around your playgroup and what they like and dislike.
The MTGO cube, on the other hand, gets played tens of thousands of times over the course of a week by a staggering variety of players. It needs to be large enough to remain interesting to those who draft it 10+ times in the week it's available. It needs to be diverse enough to offer nonstandard strategies and keep variety high (storm, dream halls, wildfire, blue aggro). Finally, it needs to limit the power blowout factor to avoid turning new players off entirely.
I thought the same way you did when the list was first released. Then I played it, and watched streams, and read comments on forums all over the web, and came to realize that it's actually a pretty amazing piece of design, given how much broader it's needs are than paper cubes. Just like regular magic, not all of the features are designed for you. They're designed to hit different kinds of players, and in that regard, it's a wild success.
To the OP: for all those reasons, it's probably not a great starting point for you, because you don't have the needs that MODO does.
Fair enough. I can understand that some people drafted in 10+ times a day let alone god knows how many times during the week it was up. And it is true that Cubing is a fairly high-level MTG activity and that the MODO cube was designed to be more accessible...but...
That still isn't an excuse for some of the individual card choices and overall design choices they made.
Seething Song is *so* bad and there is no reason it should be there. Storm? It isn't even good there, MODO storm is base UG splash 0-3 of the other colors. It generated mana by abusing Heartbeat, Time Spiral, Wake, Plainchron, stuff like that. A +2 ritual wasn't good enough, especially off the splash. There aren't enough rituals in red to build UR/BR storm so you couldn't throw Song in with some other rituals and build a more traditional storm deck. It was just a trap and unplayable. There are other examples but this is the biggest one to me.
Conditional sideboard cards that aren't maindeckable in good decks but don't crush if you draw them. Flashfreeze isn't that much better than a Mana Leak or Miscalculation. Death Mark isn't that much better than a Terror or Doom Blade. If you are going to include sideboard-only cards I want Blood Moon, Choke, Perish. If a card I pick has 0% chance of making any respectable 40 I want it to be demolishing when I board it in and draw it, not simply a quarter to half tier better than maindeckable cards that achieve something similar.
Horendous aggro mana fixing. No filters/painlands/ect. for aggro color pairs really hurts.
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If you wanted to use the MTGO cube as a base, I'd drop the Storm cards, the sideboard exclusive cards, and at least 1/3 of the 4+cc cards. With the extra space add in more aggro support, more mana-fixing lands and more critical mass support for the good archetypes. And lower the curve with every change you can.
I started off with the modo cube and did exactly this. Storm and the sideboard cards were the first thing to go. Far too often you are short on playables because there are too many garbage/not maindeck cards. Upon removing those cards, drafting and deck building became far more skill intensive.
thanks for the feedback guys. The reason I wanted to start with the MODO Cube was that it would essentially be the most common Cube among the players in my playgroup. Starting from there would familiarize the players not accustomed to Cube
When we first planned the Cube, some guys were all 'Let's go Power 9! Combo cards!'. I wanted a more level playing field, and although I can't really see it with the MODO Cube, that's probably as good a place to start as any
I will look into taking out the really weak hosers and cards (Headhunter? Phantasmal Bear?? Brooding Saurian in a Cube with a lack of creature theft cards), as well as perhaps the storm elements (though, to be truthful, I'm intrigued to at least try it out)
Alternatively, and this is just a suggestion, you can use this cube as a more or less complete reference, which is what I did when building my own cube:
Yeah and even at 720+ I don't think you need to be running purely sideboard cards like Flashfreeze, Red Elemental Blast, ect. and the MODO cube does just that.
That was intentional, and supposed to be part of the experience of drafting the MODO cube. Those cards aren't bad cards at all, they just go against the general hive-mind philosophy that this cube board goes by.
That was intentional, and supposed to be part of the experience of drafting the MODO cube. Those cards aren't bad cards at all, they just go against the general hive-mind philosophy that this cube board goes by.
I am aware it was intentional. They aren't bad but they aren't GOOD. I want to cube with good cards not merely not bad cards. As to if these forums have some kinda hive-mind, I have no idea. I make card choices primarily based on my own ideas, testing, and goals. And if a lot of people are in agreement about something, maybe it isn't some kinda hive mind circlejerk but because the ideas make sense.
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It's good to have a hive-mind philosophy when it comes to cube because the aim of a cube is to provide the most fun for your playgroup. There is nothing wrong in being humble enough to accept what others have put out to be cards that are good/bad for the cube which they have playtested so that you can have the best cube for your playgroup. It's called "collaborative effort". And most of the time, these cards are also determined to be good/bad after extensive discussion between posters on the board as can be seen in the card discussion forum.
If I was making an online cube I would at least test sideboard only cards. The online format makes managing sideboarding easier, so I think that's why they put it in.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I don't have too much of a problem with the sideboard-only cards. They make for an interesting experience, albeit not one I'm concerning about replicating. I would just lower the curve a LOT and get the Storm stuff the hell out of there. Every card in the cube or any limited singleton format should be of use on its own, unless it's easy to get repeatable and significant value out of it (Crucible of Worlds). The storm stuff does nothing unless you get all of it, and even then... why?
I'm very new to Cube drafting, and would like to start off from the MTGO Cube list and work my way from there. Are there any threads or links I can go to that discusses the MTGO Cube, and maybe directions I can go from there, such as taking the tribal route for some creatures while still maintaining the core essence of the Cube? Thanks in advance
(my search-fu is weak, as I'm getting a hundred or so results, but none so far that specifically discusses the MTGO Cube)
peasantcube.blogspot.com
Yeah and even at 720+ I don't think you need to be running purely sideboard cards like Flashfreeze, Red Elemental Blast, ect. and the MODO cube does just that.
peasantcube.blogspot.com
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Plus, the one that designed it claims himself not being cube beginner.
I have nothing against what we could call 'dragon style', heavy cube. It is more accessible for players. If Wizards says it is this kind of cube on purpose, okay, no problem.
But it is a really bad instance of 720 cards dragon cube. Which make me doubt of Tom Lapille cub designing skills. They could say 'okay, we are not familiars with cubing, balancing, etc etc'. But they are damn familiars with balancing, they release years after years almost balanced drafting sets. Wotc managed such a huge pool of cards over such a variety of formats.
The result (mtgocube) is pretty disappointed for me. But maybe we have to give time to time. The positive point is that it brings people here, seeking how to start and improve their owns cubes.
The MTGO cube, on the other hand, gets played tens of thousands of times over the course of a week by a staggering variety of players. It needs to be large enough to remain interesting to those who draft it 10+ times in the week it's available. It needs to be diverse enough to offer nonstandard strategies and keep variety high (storm, dream halls, wildfire, blue aggro). Finally, it needs to limit the power blowout factor to avoid turning new players off entirely.
I thought the same way you did when the list was first released. Then I played it, and watched streams, and read comments on forums all over the web, and came to realize that it's actually a pretty amazing piece of design, given how much broader it's needs are than paper cubes. Just like regular magic, not all of the features are designed for you. They're designed to hit different kinds of players, and in that regard, it's a wild success.
To the OP: for all those reasons, it's probably not a great starting point for you, because you don't have the needs that MODO does.
My secondary "cube".
Really out of date cube thread with pictures.
MY CUBE!
EDH Decks
Tomorrow, The Pitcher's Name
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Fair enough. I can understand that some people drafted in 10+ times a day let alone god knows how many times during the week it was up. And it is true that Cubing is a fairly high-level MTG activity and that the MODO cube was designed to be more accessible...but...
That still isn't an excuse for some of the individual card choices and overall design choices they made.
Seething Song is *so* bad and there is no reason it should be there. Storm? It isn't even good there, MODO storm is base UG splash 0-3 of the other colors. It generated mana by abusing Heartbeat, Time Spiral, Wake, Plainchron, stuff like that. A +2 ritual wasn't good enough, especially off the splash. There aren't enough rituals in red to build UR/BR storm so you couldn't throw Song in with some other rituals and build a more traditional storm deck. It was just a trap and unplayable. There are other examples but this is the biggest one to me.
Conditional sideboard cards that aren't maindeckable in good decks but don't crush if you draw them. Flashfreeze isn't that much better than a Mana Leak or Miscalculation. Death Mark isn't that much better than a Terror or Doom Blade. If you are going to include sideboard-only cards I want Blood Moon, Choke, Perish. If a card I pick has 0% chance of making any respectable 40 I want it to be demolishing when I board it in and draw it, not simply a quarter to half tier better than maindeckable cards that achieve something similar.
Horendous aggro mana fixing. No filters/painlands/ect. for aggro color pairs really hurts.
peasantcube.blogspot.com
I started off with the modo cube and did exactly this. Storm and the sideboard cards were the first thing to go. Far too often you are short on playables because there are too many garbage/not maindeck cards. Upon removing those cards, drafting and deck building became far more skill intensive.
When we first planned the Cube, some guys were all 'Let's go Power 9! Combo cards!'. I wanted a more level playing field, and although I can't really see it with the MODO Cube, that's probably as good a place to start as any
I will look into taking out the really weak hosers and cards (Headhunter? Phantasmal Bear?? Brooding Saurian in a Cube with a lack of creature theft cards), as well as perhaps the storm elements (though, to be truthful, I'm intrigued to at least try it out)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=198041
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
That was intentional, and supposed to be part of the experience of drafting the MODO cube. Those cards aren't bad cards at all, they just go against the general hive-mind philosophy that this cube board goes by.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
I am aware it was intentional. They aren't bad but they aren't GOOD. I want to cube with good cards not merely not bad cards. As to if these forums have some kinda hive-mind, I have no idea. I make card choices primarily based on my own ideas, testing, and goals. And if a lot of people are in agreement about something, maybe it isn't some kinda hive mind circlejerk but because the ideas make sense.
peasantcube.blogspot.com
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: