Now that we have the very nice cube comparison thread hosted by Eidolon232, it's very easy to find out exactly which cards you run are very unpopular, or conversely which cards you have chosen not to run are in fact run by everyone and his mother.
This is some very useful data that can lead you to the correct cuts/additions for your next update! If you haven't fed your cube data to Eidolon's cube comparison bot yet, I'd recommend doing so!
On the other hand, there's also something to be wary of: we are all (ok, most of us) relatively easily influenced by other people's opinions - more than most realize. This is magnified by the cube comparison data, which could lead to a nasty case of groupthink.
Probably, that card you run that nobody else uses is just not good enough for cube, or only for cubes larger than yours is. Maybe it's only good for your cube, because you happen to support [enter archetype here] more than most folks - which makes the card just right for you. And maybe, just maybe - all those other cubes are missing out on a great card.
Let's have some discussion about the cards where you deviate from the norm: cards missing from your cube that most cubes do run, and cards you run that very few other cubes run. They can show you the reasons why other people decided differently than you, and it could also serve to give other people ideas for future updates to their cube.
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I'll kick off. There's only one super-popular card I'm not running, and I have no problem adding it (Magma Jet) - will probably do so soon if Hicham agrees.
That leaves me with the unpopular cards I run. There are still some test cases in there, so those are also not very interesting to discuss. But there are some for which I'm willing to jump onto the barricades.
This card is the perfect 1-drop to help control decks survive to the phase of the game where they just win. It's sooo rough for aggro to have this dropped against it on turn one. I consider this a top tier control card, especially since control generally can't do much with one mana, so Perimeter Captain fills that hole nicely.
Unblockable creatures are quite good for every archetype (especially with power-boosting equipment), and this one has built-in repeatable removal against the most hard-to-deal-with card type in Magic. It's no top tier card, but it amazes me that so few cubes run it.
Into the Roil is probably slightly better. However, being able to bounce lands is relevant surprisingly often as a means to mess up your opponent's tempo, and I think that even in smaller cubes having both bounce spells around wouldn't be a luxury. I'm not contemplating cutting it any time soon.
Hugely underrated. In ANY aggressive deck, this card is a nightmare to face. Unless your opponent has a cheap solution right now, he will lose the game, in a hurry. Brutal card.
This one has me puzzled. This a card that serves as a sweeper, and can also be used to give an aggressive deck reach for those pesky last couple of life points. This is not used... why? Likewise, I'm flabbergasted that not everyone's running Earthquake. That card is just ace - I could maybe see people not running Fault Line for the double red in its cost, but Earthquake not making the cut just - does not compute.
Red is starved for 2-drops, and this is one that has surprised me. Protection from red is useful both against your opponent's creatures/burn as against your own Starstorm/Earthquake/Crater Hellion. Negating echo costs comes up quite often as well, between Ghitu Slinger, Avalanche Riders, Keldon Champion and again, Crater Hellion. Nothing game-breaking, but good enough for the red 2-drop section until they start printing some more good ones to replace it.
Consider what the scenario's are. If you bid more life, you get a 5/5 trample haste for 3RR, which is a bargain even for cube. Bid less, and you got yourself a Keldon Champion without echo (unless you didn't bid at least 2 life, in which case you're playing the Ogre incorrectly). Bid the same, and you get both. Great red midrange creature, and there aren't that many good red creatures for that cost.
Nothing top tier, but still this is a way to fetch your ABU duals or shock lands, on a stick - with all associated ways for abuse. A solid card that's run in fewer cubes than it should.
I suppose this card is not popular because it requires a control-style deck to not have too many cards in hand. In practice however, it is really not hard at all to turn this card into a one-sided Moat that also stops flying creatures. We've also had this card end up in a mono-red burn deck once where it was just ridiculous.
Fredo, cut your cube down to 450 or even 500 cards and see how many of those cards stay. I'm guessing none.
People here overestimate the influence of groupthink. Everyone thinks for themselves. Ignoring data, playtesting results and common experiences for card selection would be an incredible waste of a valuable resource. That's why this forum is here... not to control the cards you run, but to share experiences and better the cube list as a result.
I DON'T think coming into the forum, plugging your cube into the comparison data, and auto-changing every cards it tells you to is a good thing. But people aren't doing that. People are asking questions about why certain cards are under-performing, getting legitimate answers, and then replacing them with cards that perform better.
We have to remember that the cuts list is "recommended" based on what other people are running. it is systematic. We need to ask ourselves "Hey, is this card really something I want to cut" . It asks us to question the cards we run. That's pretty much it.
For me, I have a lot of a cuts since I am at 720. That's life. Most of the cubes in the comparison thread are under <600 cards
A lot of my cuts I know is because my cube is just "25%" bigger than other folks.
I run tons of P3K cards, Seasonal cards and Unglued cards. Most of those aren't in peoples cubes. Those are gonna be part of the cut list. I knew that going in
But based on my recommended cut list, I have stuff that I know is definitely sub-optimal now like Scythe Tiger and stuff like Otherworldy Journey and Gush ) but it gives me a list I need to focus on when new stuff comes out.
i like the purpose of this thread. i'm not saying everyone is a drone, because i'm not everyone, but i know that i, for one, find it easy to just take people's word sometimes. i don't have a large playgroup so playtesting doesn't always hit every card in the cube i want to hit when i want to hit it. that means some cards go awhile before they get truly tested. so it's easier to optimize the cube from people's opinions and then see if it plays better as a whole afterward.
so i think it's good to have alternate options, even if they turn out to be bad, which is part of why i like to check erwin's cube a lot. sometimes i agree with him, or want to provide an environment similar to his in some respect. he will try new cards other people won't even think of trying. this thread will be useful for that as well. plus trying new cards is fun!
if thick-skinned goblin was pro-red without paying for it i think this would be a much easier choice, but i might try him out anyway because i'm intrigued. and i think earthquake is pretty important myself.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Fredo, cut your cube down to 450 or even 500 cards and see how many of those cards stay. I'm guessing none.
People here overestimate the influence of groupthink. Everyone thinks for themselves. Ignoring data, playtesting results and common experiences for card selection would be an incredible waste of a valuable resource. That's why this forum is here... not to control the cards you run, but to share experiences and better the cube list as a result.
I DON'T think coming into the forum, plugging your cube into the comparison data, and auto-changing every cards it tells you to is a good thing. But people aren't doing that. People are asking questions about why certain cards are under-performing, getting legitimate answers, and then replacing them with cards that perform better.
Obviously, if I made my cube smaller, most of those would get cut. But many people have cubes at least as large as mine currently is (565) - don't you think discussing these cards has merit? Or are you just saying that this should be discussed in the 'Should I play this card' thread?
The difference is that killing this thread off would not get people talking about the cards only they run that they're are not planning to remove - they have no reason to post about those in the 'should I play' thread since they already decided they want to play them.
i like the purpose of this thread. i'm not saying everyone is a drone, because i'm not everyone, but i know that i, for one, find it easy to just take people's word sometimes.
Believe me, people are more easily influenced by other people's opinions than even they themselves know. It's human nature.
if thick-skinned goblin was pro-red without paying for it i think this would be a much easier choice, but i might try him out anyway because i'm intrigued. and i think earthquake is pretty important myself.
Yeah, the cost to give protection is sometimes annoying, I'll give you that. But the list of really good red 2-drop creatures is quite short.
EDIT: sorry for double-posting, several posts appeared while I was writing my reply to the first one.
I don't think Fredo's intent here is to accuse anyone of making changes without putting thought into them. He just wants to discuss dark horse cards. The comparison project is a great way to figure out what your dark horse cards are. Someone else's experience with a lesser known card could convince another cubist to give it a chance.
Obviously, if I made my cube smaller, most of those would get cut. But many people have cubes at least as large as mine currently is (565) - don't you think discussing these cards has merit? Or are you just saying that this should be discussed in the 'Should I play this card' thread?
The difference is that killing this thread off would not get people talking about the cards only they run that they're are not planning to remove - they have no reason to post about those in the 'should I play' thread since they already decided they want to play them.
I'm not saying you should close the thread, I'm simply saying that the suggested cuts have a lot to do with cube size, and you're overestimating the value of groupthink.
Larger cubes will have more "fringe" cards.
Now, what would be worth discussing is cards you feel should make into all or most cubes (even the 360-450 range ones) that are considered "fringe" to other folks.
Also, for the cards that most people don't run, that you feel have merit in cubes of all sizes, we have the "dark horse card" thread, which we can use for these kinds of discussions.
We have to remember that the cuts list is "recommended" based on what other people are running. it is systematic. We need to ask ourselves "Hey, is this card really something I want to cut" . It asks us to question the cards we run. That's pretty much it.
For me, I have a lot of a cuts since I am at 720. That's life. Most of the cubes in the comparison thread are under <600 cards
A lot of my cuts I know is because my cube is just "25%" bigger than other folks.
I run tons of P3K cards, Seasonal cards and Unglued cards. Most of those aren't in peoples cubes. Those are gonna be part of the cut list. I knew that going in
But based on my recommended cut list, I have stuff that I know is definitely sub-optimal now like Scythe Tiger and stuff like Otherworldy Journey and Gush ) but it gives me a list I need to focus on when new stuff comes out.
I agree with most of your points, but I can't really think of a situation where Gush is suboptimal. At best it's incredible, and at worst you can hard cast it.
yeah hardcasting Gush is just awful IMHO. I would never want to hardcast that thing.
4U for two cards? Please. yeah it is an instant but for an extra U, you can play Opportunity and get additional two cards.
And we already agree that it is just Okay at best.
I rather just just play Sea Gate Oracle which is a basically a cantrip that lets you filter + a 1/3 body for 2U
I agree with most of your points, but I can't really think of a situation where Gush is suboptimal. At best it's incredible, and at worst you can hard cast it.
How about when you only have on island in play? That seems pretty suboptimal to me.
Gush is bad in the cube far more often than it's "incredible", which is only really in mono-blue, considering what an insane drawback bouncing two islands is in a 2+ color deck with non-island mana fixing to boot.
I don't think Fredo's intent here is to accuse anyone of making changes without putting thought into them. He just wants to discuss dark horse cards. The comparison project is a great way to figure out what your dark horse cards are. Someone else's experience with a lesser known card could convince another cubist to give it a chance.
Now that you mention it, I suppose that the 'dark horse' thread covers the same load as this thread intended to. That's (unfortunately) not a very active thread. Should I necro it with my cards? Perhaps it merits a sticky in the forum's new form?
Now that you mention it, I suppose that the 'dark horse' thread covers the same load as this thread intended to. That's (unfortunately) not a very active thread. Should I necro it with my cards? Perhaps it merits a sticky in the forum's new form?
This is some very useful data that can lead you to the correct cuts/additions for your next update! If you haven't fed your cube data to Eidolon's cube comparison bot yet, I'd recommend doing so!
On the other hand, there's also something to be wary of: we are all (ok, most of us) relatively easily influenced by other people's opinions - more than most realize. This is magnified by the cube comparison data, which could lead to a nasty case of groupthink.
Probably, that card you run that nobody else uses is just not good enough for cube, or only for cubes larger than yours is. Maybe it's only good for your cube, because you happen to support [enter archetype here] more than most folks - which makes the card just right for you. And maybe, just maybe - all those other cubes are missing out on a great card.
Let's have some discussion about the cards where you deviate from the norm: cards missing from your cube that most cubes do run, and cards you run that very few other cubes run. They can show you the reasons why other people decided differently than you, and it could also serve to give other people ideas for future updates to their cube.
-------------------------------------------
I'll kick off. There's only one super-popular card I'm not running, and I have no problem adding it (Magma Jet) - will probably do so soon if Hicham agrees.
That leaves me with the unpopular cards I run. There are still some test cases in there, so those are also not very interesting to discuss. But there are some for which I'm willing to jump onto the barricades.
Perimeter Captain
This card is the perfect 1-drop to help control decks survive to the phase of the game where they just win. It's sooo rough for aggro to have this dropped against it on turn one. I consider this a top tier control card, especially since control generally can't do much with one mana, so Perimeter Captain fills that hole nicely.
Soltari Visionary
Unblockable creatures are quite good for every archetype (especially with power-boosting equipment), and this one has built-in repeatable removal against the most hard-to-deal-with card type in Magic. It's no top tier card, but it amazes me that so few cubes run it.
Boomerang
Into the Roil is probably slightly better. However, being able to bounce lands is relevant surprisingly often as a means to mess up your opponent's tempo, and I think that even in smaller cubes having both bounce spells around wouldn't be a luxury. I'm not contemplating cutting it any time soon.
Mana Barbs
Hugely underrated. In ANY aggressive deck, this card is a nightmare to face. Unless your opponent has a cheap solution right now, he will lose the game, in a hurry. Brutal card.
Fault Line
This one has me puzzled. This a card that serves as a sweeper, and can also be used to give an aggressive deck reach for those pesky last couple of life points. This is not used... why? Likewise, I'm flabbergasted that not everyone's running Earthquake. That card is just ace - I could maybe see people not running Fault Line for the double red in its cost, but Earthquake not making the cut just - does not compute.
Thick-Skinned Goblin
Red is starved for 2-drops, and this is one that has surprised me. Protection from red is useful both against your opponent's creatures/burn as against your own Starstorm/Earthquake/Crater Hellion. Negating echo costs comes up quite often as well, between Ghitu Slinger, Avalanche Riders, Keldon Champion and again, Crater Hellion. Nothing game-breaking, but good enough for the red 2-drop section until they start printing some more good ones to replace it.
Menacing Ogre
Consider what the scenario's are. If you bid more life, you get a 5/5 trample haste for 3RR, which is a bargain even for cube. Bid less, and you got yourself a Keldon Champion without echo (unless you didn't bid at least 2 life, in which case you're playing the Ogre incorrectly). Bid the same, and you get both. Great red midrange creature, and there aren't that many good red creatures for that cost.
Wood Elves
Nothing top tier, but still this is a way to fetch your ABU duals or shock lands, on a stick - with all associated ways for abuse. A solid card that's run in fewer cubes than it should.
Ensnaring Bridge
I suppose this card is not popular because it requires a control-style deck to not have too many cards in hand. In practice however, it is really not hard at all to turn this card into a one-sided Moat that also stops flying creatures. We've also had this card end up in a mono-red burn deck once where it was just ridiculous.
People here overestimate the influence of groupthink. Everyone thinks for themselves. Ignoring data, playtesting results and common experiences for card selection would be an incredible waste of a valuable resource. That's why this forum is here... not to control the cards you run, but to share experiences and better the cube list as a result.
I DON'T think coming into the forum, plugging your cube into the comparison data, and auto-changing every cards it tells you to is a good thing. But people aren't doing that. People are asking questions about why certain cards are under-performing, getting legitimate answers, and then replacing them with cards that perform better.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
For me, I have a lot of a cuts since I am at 720. That's life. Most of the cubes in the comparison thread are under <600 cards
A lot of my cuts I know is because my cube is just "25%" bigger than other folks.
I run tons of P3K cards, Seasonal cards and Unglued cards. Most of those aren't in peoples cubes. Those are gonna be part of the cut list. I knew that going in
But based on my recommended cut list, I have stuff that I know is definitely sub-optimal now like Scythe Tiger and stuff like Otherworldy Journey and Gush ) but it gives me a list I need to focus on when new stuff comes out.
Opm's Cube on MTGS
Wife's Etsy Store (Hair Accessories for Girls)
so i think it's good to have alternate options, even if they turn out to be bad, which is part of why i like to check erwin's cube a lot. sometimes i agree with him, or want to provide an environment similar to his in some respect. he will try new cards other people won't even think of trying. this thread will be useful for that as well. plus trying new cards is fun!
if thick-skinned goblin was pro-red without paying for it i think this would be a much easier choice, but i might try him out anyway because i'm intrigued. and i think earthquake is pretty important myself.
Obviously, if I made my cube smaller, most of those would get cut. But many people have cubes at least as large as mine currently is (565) - don't you think discussing these cards has merit? Or are you just saying that this should be discussed in the 'Should I play this card' thread?
The difference is that killing this thread off would not get people talking about the cards only they run that they're are not planning to remove - they have no reason to post about those in the 'should I play' thread since they already decided they want to play them.
Believe me, people are more easily influenced by other people's opinions than even they themselves know. It's human nature.
Yeah, the cost to give protection is sometimes annoying, I'll give you that. But the list of really good red 2-drop creatures is quite short.
EDIT: sorry for double-posting, several posts appeared while I was writing my reply to the first one.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I'm not saying you should close the thread, I'm simply saying that the suggested cuts have a lot to do with cube size, and you're overestimating the value of groupthink.
Larger cubes will have more "fringe" cards.
Now, what would be worth discussing is cards you feel should make into all or most cubes (even the 360-450 range ones) that are considered "fringe" to other folks.
Also, for the cards that most people don't run, that you feel have merit in cubes of all sizes, we have the "dark horse card" thread, which we can use for these kinds of discussions.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I agree with most of your points, but I can't really think of a situation where Gush is suboptimal. At best it's incredible, and at worst you can hard cast it.
yeah hardcasting Gush is just awful IMHO. I would never want to hardcast that thing.
4U for two cards? Please. yeah it is an instant but for an extra U, you can play Opportunity and get additional two cards.
And we already agree that it is just Okay at best.
I rather just just play Sea Gate Oracle which is a basically a cantrip that lets you filter + a 1/3 body for 2U
Opm's Cube on MTGS
Wife's Etsy Store (Hair Accessories for Girls)
How about when you only have on island in play? That seems pretty suboptimal to me.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Now that you mention it, I suppose that the 'dark horse' thread covers the same load as this thread intended to. That's (unfortunately) not a very active thread. Should I necro it with my cards? Perhaps it merits a sticky in the forum's new form?
It had like 6 posts in it just today.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I missed today's posts, and I didn't remember seeing lots of posts lately.
Anyway, never mind. I won't attempt to stimulate any further discussion. Silly me.
I think you should stimulate extra discussion. Take it to the Dark Horse thread and we can talk about the cards in particular.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!